At the same preassure, what difference is there in velocity on theese two bullet weights?

Not interested in calculations, but actual testing.

Thanks,

quote:

Not interested in calculations

Since you are not interested in science, , I will give you my feelings!!

I feel that the 480 gr. bullet can go faster than the 500 gr. bullet.

Bent
haven't shot those 2 bullets, but in the .458 to .510 bullets, you generally can swap FPS for grains ... so, 20gr less, 50FPS more

this is a NARROW bands of difference, but it seems to work out
jeffe

With a given powder and a given cartridge case, yousss got a certain kinetic energy potential for the 480 and 500 boolits.

To get the same pressure the honker boolits have to a grain or two less powder than the baby boolits.

But you cans calkulate the differences in spead 'wteen differnt boolits. But mi signintifik calkulater is busted.

There will be a slightly detectable difference in the resonance of your fillings as they pop out of your mouth after each shot!-Rob

Thanks, Jeffe.

I was just trying go block out statements like "Go with the 450 grs barnes x" or "get a .458 Lott" etc.etc.

In the same rifle, loaded to "about max" in the same altitude, same temperature. What? You guys have not tried that?

But, glad to have you all humored!

.........I have told myself I need to .........Of any round that could use the room the win mag can ...I should get a bunch of Hawks ,,,,,,or Woodlieghs and do some load work .....I would be interested in the 480,s if they would reduce the extreme variation in velocity .........and if I got 2150 fps I would be as pleased as punch ....

For exact same pressure with exactly the same powder the 480 will go slightly faster. As Will stated the KE (kinetic energy will be basically the same so since your mass is slightly lower with the 480 your velocity will be the square root of the difference in mass higher).
Enough physics, yes?

I have loaded both the 480 gr. Woodleigh and the 500 gr Woodleigh solids as well as softs in my 458 Win. Mag. This is my feeling on the subject.

I chose the 480 gr thinking if it was good enough for the 450 N.E. 3.25 during the peak of the real African hunting experience then it will work just as well today. Would the 500 gr. bullet work any better-possibly but any dead critter would not argue the difference.

In my 22" Winchester 458 I was able to easily duplicate and even exceed the original advertised velocity for the N.E. round by at least 100 ft/sec. and with no pressure issues or crunching of powder. The 500 gr bullets shot at 2100 ft./sec and you did have to use a compressed load.

For me the moral of the story if you believe in such stuff is this. If compressed charges of either ball or stick powder are responsible for erratic ignition and velocity performance in the 458 case then why do that when you can have a slightly lighter bullet with minimum compression of powder and no ignition/performance issues to deal with.

I have used the 480 grain Woodleigh softs and solids in my .458 Win Mags with great success. I load the Woodleighs with 66 grains RL-7 and a Federal 215M primer. I get right between 2150 and 2200 fps with excellent accuracy. There is little to no compression which I like. I have no significant experience with the 500 grain bullets.

Even if you are not interested in calculations, here they are anyway.

No problems getting 2150 fps with the 500 gr. bullet.

Then the 480 should be going:

V = (500(2150)^2/480)^(1/2) = 2194 fps

Likewise the 550 gr. Woodleigh should be going 2100 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I have used the 480 grain Woodleigh softs and solids in my .458 Win Mags with great success. I load the Woodleighs with 66 grains RL-7 and a Federal 215M primer. I get right between 2150 and 2200 fps with excellent accuracy. There is little to no compression which I like. I have no significant experience with the 500 grain bullets.

For you guys shooting the 480gr Woodleighs in your 458wm's, how do you overcome the "misplaced" cannelure that the 480's have which places a heck of a lot more of the 480 bullet into the case than the 500's cannelure does?

The cannelure on the 480's, designed for the 450 NE's which have relatively caverous cases, is way farther forward than on the 500's designed with just over a calibre behind the cannelure. I have read that Woodleigh has run 480gr solids with the rearward cannelure for the 458wm in the past, but they do not currently catalog them.

Using the cannelure to crimp, which I think is critical for the 458wm, I can load a heck of a lot more powder without compaction using the 500's.

BTW, full cases promote ignition and consistency and aren't a bad thing. And keeping any DG ammo fresh is just good sense.

2150fps with the 500's and little or no compaction is cake with several powders btw. AA 2230 is the leading candidate. Hornaday shows 2250fps as a book load in their manual.

Sorry to go off topic.

JPK

A2230 is probably one of the few that will get you non-compressed loads, with typical 500 gr. bullets.

Will,

H 4198, H 335, ...

But no nead to stray from the AA 2230.

JPK

I am as far as one could get from being a powder expert, but are not H4896 and H335 stick powders? As I recollect, the porosity (% of void) of packed spheres (ball powders, like A2230) is less than ramdomly packed short cylinders (stick powder).

In order to get as much velocity of less dense stick powder charges than spherical, ball powders, the stick would have to have more energy per pound than the spherical powders.

And if their burning rates are assumed equal, the stick powders would give higher pressures.

Or one would have to compress stick powders to get the same porosity of the ball powders.

But this may be an over-simplification, and incorrect, interpretation of reality!

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:


For me the moral of the story if you believe in such stuff is this. If compressed charges of either ball or stick powder are responsible for erratic ignition and velocity performance in the 458 case then why do that when you can have a slightly lighter bullet with minimum compression of powder and no ignition/performance issues to deal with.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sence to me.
But how about JPK's point about the cannelure?

What's a 458WM thread without Shootaway's opinions ??

Ken....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I am as far as one could get from being a powder expert, but are not H4896 and H335 stick powders? As I recollect, the porosity (% of void) of packed spheres (ball powders, like A2230) is less than ramdomly packed short cylinders (stick powder).

In order to get as much velocity of less dense stick powder charges than spherical, ball powders, the stick would have to have more energy per pound than the spherical powders.

And if their burning rates are assumed equal, the stick powders would give higher pressures.

Or one would have to compress stick powders to get the same porosity of the ball powders.

But this may be an over-simplification, and incorrect, interpretation of reality!

Will,

2150fps is far, far from a max load with several powders. A couple get to 2150fps w/o compression. But with max loads, I believe they are all compressed. I haven't gone far enough past 2150fps to find a compressed powder charge, and I won't because my rifle shoots well at 2145fps and the loads works great on eles.

So for example, AA 2230 has a lot of room while H 4895 has less.

Thinking of it, my rifle has 26" barrels which probably helps with the velocity vs compression issue.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Thanks, that makes a lot of sence to me.
But how about JPK's point about the cannelure?

Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die and you can crimp the bullet anywhere you want.
jnc91

quote:

Originally posted by jnc91:

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Thanks, that makes a lot of sence to me.
But how about JPK's point about the cannelure?

Use a Lee Factory Crimp Die and you can crimp the bullet anywhere you want.
jnc91

JNC91,

I have been told that the Lee Factory Crimp Die will not work "out of the cannelure" on steel jacketed solids, or on hard brass solids either. Is you experience different? I looked into a cannelure cutter but this seemed like an invitation to steel jacketed, solid bullet failure.

JPK

The Lee factory crimp dies only worked, for me, in the cannalure. Maybe others can get it done.

I have used Varget, RL-15, and A2230 for the 458 to get 2150 fps in a 22" barrel. A2230 was the only one not compressed with the 500 gr. bullets. The other two were heavily compressed loads.

Whatever floats your boat!

Will,

I tried Varget and couldn't get velocity with the middlin' loads I like. And it was dirty.

You might want to try H 4895, it seemed to have great potential, ditto H 335.

But for the 500's there seems little reason to stray from AA 2230. The load that gives me 2145fps:

500gr Woodleigh Solid
72.5grs AA 2230
Norma case
Fed 215 primer
Crimped in the cannelure

This is a pretty mild to middlin' load according to the Hornaday book, which Woodleigh told me to use for their bullets.

H 4895 burns cleaner with the 450gr North Forks. Mike changed his bullet by adding more bands so my previous load is obsolete. I'll be working up a new load soon.

So how can buff die faster with softs given an average death within 18.3yds? Only one had time for a death moan, btw.

JPK

I guess I have argued about that more than I should.

Braining and spining don't count!

I have shot a couple boat loads of otherwise innocent impala that were sacrificed on the alter of many prolonged, unsuccessful leopards hunts.

All of them were shot with .375 300 gr. softs. When I used Nosler Partitions (relatively soft) the antelope invariably were killed instantly, the typical dead before they hit the ground. Many times the PH would proclaim "You missed." But they died and feel so fast in the bush that the PH had missed them falling!

On the other hand when I shot them with 300 gr. Swifts (relatively tough) they would run off for several yards before croaking. Indeed they were dead on the hoof but showed me the difference in using "softs" and "solids."

I have not shot boat loads of buffalo but the ones I have shot have always gone down within a few yards when using a good soft.

Using solids on buffalo is just a holdover from prehistoric days that keeps on getting perpetuated by PH's that can't seem to see the difference. I have had many arguments in camps with PH that are just stuck on stupid, rather, I mean, stuck on solids.

This same ignorance resurfaces almost constantly. In the latest Magnum magazine (out of South Africa) there is a letter to the editor or somewhere going on about he just couldn't understand why the "hard" bullets of some type weren't working very well, as his antelope kept running off and they had to spend hours tracking them down, even though they were dead when they finally found them. And the editors said there wasn't anything wrong with his choice of bullets!

EUREKA!

I was thinking about responding with my oft repeated diatribe about "softs" versus "solids," but the hell with it. It would be like trying to convince these guys that witch's tits really aren't cold.

OK Will, lets get rid of the spined bull, which I wouldn't have tried with softs.

Average "run" now goes to 27yds. So explain again how softs kill buff so much faster.

I'll grant that a .458" solid produces a hell of a lot more hole than a 375 or 416 but either of them will do the job. A crappy soft may not, even a good soft that misbehaves may not.

You know this is coming, so brace yourself - impala are not cape buffalo! Where a Swift may be hard for a 100lb impala it is just about right for a 1000lb buff. I actually use the trophy bonded in my 375. I find them excellent for everything, including impala, but, though I haven't used them on buff, I think they are too soft to be ideal for buff. Better to be shooting a bullet too hard for impala than too soft for buff!!

You really do need to suit the soft to the game. For example, I like Sierra Gamekings for whitetails (hated by many for being to soft) but wouldn't shoot a kudu with one...

JPK

Somewhere I have gone on about this topic, that when you shoot buff with a good soft, the buff stumbles a couple yards and goes down. Saeed chimed in with the same comment. He has dinged a bunch more buff than I have.

But there is no law against using solids.

I have laid out my case. With no disrespect, anybody is free to do what they want.

Will, Saeed uses solids, or cup point solids. Take a look at his bullets!

I'll take the 18.3yds average any day. Seems to beat the hell out of the guys shooting softs, even if I shoot more solids at the buff. At least according to reports here

I do want to shoot some buff with softs to see if they can die quicker. Just out of curiosity.

I'll be haeding out of town for the holiday so - Happy New Year!

Best,
JPK

Okay, I can't resist. If you read the chapter in my book that my boy wrote (which is most excellent, by the way) he tells about shooting that buff three times before it goes down.

The three shots, two when the buff was in high gear, could be covered by a paper plate, right behind the shoulder.

I told him to use the softs before he was carted off for the day by Pete Barnard. Pete is from the old school of using solids for everything and anything. Between Pete and my son not believing anything his old man has to say, he shot that buff with solids.

Good thing that buff was going thataway instead of his way.

And you also have a good New Year celebration.

Let us know if a witch's tit is cold or not!

Take the 18.3yd average - He'd die at my feet, but I'd have one barrel reloaded to stop him.

Take the 27yd average and I'm well inside the buff's range, but again with a third shot ready.

Punch him through and I don't think he's coming. Have a soft come apart or divert on a shoulder and he may, or may when you go to find him.

Take your shot, take your chance.

Better have a solid in the second barrel or next up in the mag. If he's coming you will NEED the solid. (Have you seen 500 Grains' photo of the 500 soft he used to brain a buff - scary, but it worked, barely)

Again, Happy New Year!

JPK

My 458 Lott shots a 500 gr Solid bullet at 2320 FPS, And the SP nose at 2280 fps