BTT to keep it active.

I will get one as is but would prefer thye differentiated there product more by going for the .850" bolt........that gives them a niche market on two fronts through low cost and differentation by having a much larger bolt than granite etc.

Before anyone points it out I am well aware that the granite is a premium product

I would prefer the larger action. And I would prefer a PH action with a Mauser bolt release and Obendorf bolt handle, not a gun with a mongrel look of Mauser, Sako and Win M70 all mixed in together.

The Olympic Arms Ultramag is an example of a bastardized design. If it were a true Mauser design, for the price a lot of people would be interested. But in reality they sell few actions. I am afraid that MRC is headed down the same path with their current design of the PH action.

I own two MRC Long Actions, one left hand, one right hand. They are as advertised! I am pleased with they way they look. They are going to make two beautiful 404 jeffery rifles!

500grains totally agree with you on the safety issue. I'd like to see them fix that as well but that is something smiths can fix after the purchase for a few bucks if you want to go to a true model 70 safety.

PC, that is my point to them exactly. Keep the market you have but extend it to reach others. I can't see the mold or action costing anymore to make and they would have a bigger market.

Rusty I'm glad to hear you like the LA version. I'm so hopeful that a slightly larger action on the PH side will let me really play with the big calibers.

Anyone like to see a single stack option?

John

Yes, I would like the single stack option very much.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Yes, I would like the single stack option very much.

I agree with 500......we would have crf and single stacking reliability

Rusty,
One LH and one RH, do you have a set of cross draw holsters on order?

I also think the .850 Dia bolt would give the gun more appeal.

With the shortened version of my 700 HE,
the mag would have to be single stack.
I wonder if it would do any good to
check to see if Jeff at MRC would want a 700 BNE case, with bullet sent to them.
Just having them in hand may get the juices flowing over there.I filled in the poll
spot saying if they made them bigger I get
a bunch...Ed

I would make it with the big bolt and one reason being that CZ offers the 505 out of the box. HOWEVER, a lot of shooters will buy rifles/actions on the basis of the potential to go bigger.

For example, over years I have seen several people buy Wby Mark Vs in the smaller H&H cased chamberings yet their preference has not been the Wby rifle. But because a Wby does all its feed control from the magazine they all have the same receiver and thus conversion to the 378 case Wbys is quite straight forward.

So I would have that action with the big bolt and in line feed and whether you got one for the 375 H&H or the "whatever" the receiver would be the same.

Mike

Roscoe,
LOL, actually my friend is left handed.

One for him, one for me. Kinda like a birthday present, only it's two and half years delayed! Oh well, finally making progress thanks to Tip Burns!

Thanks Ed, from how I'm reading the results so far. It looks to me that they basically double there market by going larger. I'm planning on letting this poll stay here for a week and then point the guys at MRC to this thread next Monday.

I simply don't see the economic sense to NOT make the change. In thinking about it I should have asked a slightly different question but this should be close enough to make my point.

Mike, you know better than to say Weatherby here. Good God man what are you thinking. Of course, you are absolutely correct. Very rarely does anyone think of going smaller. I don’t think it’s an American thing either. Man as a species wants to break the limits and push further. It’s why we’re not swinging from the trees anymore.

I personally really think a single stack mag would be a great option and if they don't make one I will. I've got one for the CZ 550 finished and want to do one for the model 70s. I know a bit of what's going on behind the seen at MRC (I've got a friend of a friend….. ) and they (MRC) have been working really hard to get thru the problems on the other actions and make everyone happy. I give them a lot of credit for that. It is no small thing that they are doing and money is never unlimited.

I hope they continue to listen to their customers.

John

Rusty,
I also shoot left handed...Want another friend???

back to top.!!!

I think others have said it, but the bolt is the only "MRC" change that we can't work around, as the ring can be opened up (did you realise it's 1.500 diamter?!?!?"

Just gimme a bigger bolt, please,

jeffe

quote:

Mike, you know better than to say Weatherby here. Good God man what are you thinking.

John, I did not notice that 500 grains was on the thread

Mike

quote:

John, I did not notice that 500 grains was on the thread

Mike, 500Grains has some good points about the Weatherbys but I still own and shoot a few. I like them enough but I never had a "bad one". My 416 will out shoot most of my varmint rigs at 100 yds.

John

John,

I was thinking of sending Dan the membership application forms to join the Weatherby Collectors Association

By the way, do you know that Roy never fired the 460 and had no interest it. It was just because of the 40 calibre minimum DG laws that existed. I suspect if he was still alive he would be similar with the 416 as like the 460 it is missing the big velocity with normal weight bullets.

A bit more trivia for you In the Deluxe and the old Euromark Wby could hardly give 416s away but in the custom shop area it equals the 378 but the 460 does more in the custom shop than the 378 and 416 combined. In fact I think it ranks second to the 300.

Contraty to popular opinion that thinks the 257 is the second biggest seller after the 300, it is the 270 Wby that is second.

The only area where the 300 does not lead is done up custom shop Accumarks where to 30/378 leads the parade.

From what they can tell the a much higher percentage of 416 sales are for genuine big game use and also the 416 sells more factory ammo than either 378 and 460 in relation to the rifles sold.

In others words, the 416 misses the "play gun" market. Obviously it lacks the 460's "the biggest" and of course the 45 bullets and lacks the 378's speed.

One more bit of trivia which also seems to apply to other custom guns. The 30/378 and 338/378 see virtually no activity in the Wby custom shop on wood guns. The bloke that runs the custom shop reckons that with expensive wood guns people tend to get "all practical" when the calibres are smaller.

Mike

BTT

So, exactly what casehead size are we missing out on with the "small" PH bolt?
When you say, "if you would never consider having something that big built..." you're really talking Rigby/Lapua/Wby and up, right? I think there are a lot of folks that would buy this action to chamber with the above cases, and then maybe add the Jeffery and Gibbs cases, still at .635" or less. Much as I love the thought of a gigantic action able to hold a 600x50BMGx3.5" case, I really think they have 90% of the market covered with the action they have.
Maybe you could just get them to make a custom run of larger bolts, and mill the action out to suit. That would surely be possible.
If you poll: "what is your dream large-case custom rifle," it would be interesting to see what percentage of those needing something bigger than a magnum would fit within the existing design parameters.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
So, exactly what casehead size are we missing out on with the "small" PH bolt?

BB,
from a practical engineering question, the bolt change (i don't care one way or the other on the barrel threads, as those can be changed) it is about 5 clicks on a keyboard to change.... and since the molds aren't done, it doesn't accept production... in fact, only prototypes exists,,, and prototypes are made to CHANGE


let me answer this is a marketing fashion,

what does the PH bring to the table that the cz550 doesn't at current bolt size (as they are near enough the same) ??/

answer 1
you get a better trigger for the same money


answer 2
if you are marketing a huge powerful action, you should check what your MARKET wants... and if you offer nothing but a better trigger on a CZ, whats the point?


Or, to talk about your later marketing question...

"....90% of the market covered"....

actually, no.. look at the poll results,

26% say "it's covered" 74% say they would PREFER changes made

and, in marketing an action, you want to be the PREFERRED supplier... otherwise you are now just "an available supplier"

but for building rifles, say or like a trex, 700da, an old rimmed nitro round, or basically everything that can not fit into a cz, WHY NOT?

for that matter, you should have asked "why not just start with an enfield and be done with this "....

sure enough, I, and a couple others that post here, have built some rather big stuff on enfields..

Bwana-be

I agree with you that the current action proposed covers 90% of the market BUT I only agree in part.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I have known several people who have purhased the Weatherby Mark V in calibres such as 300 Win when the Wby was not their true preference BUT the relatively simple conversion to the 378 based calibres has meant the person bought the cheap Wby Synthetic Mark V over a Rem 700 or M70 even though his preference was Rem 700 or M70. While the Wby Synthetic is quite cheap compared to the Wby Deluxe it is more expensive than Rem 700 and M70 plastic rifles.

Now of course 99% of these buyers do not convert to a 378 based calibre but the fact is they bought the Wby because of the "potential". Likewise, I am sure that 98% of people who have bought 458 Win with the idea of rechambering to 458 Lott have not done the conversion. Their first box of full power 500 grain 458 loads will have rapidly convinced them that more power than the 458 is not required

If I was making the MRC action and was already committed to making the PH ation then I would make an action that was a big as possible that could be fitted to a stock where a sporting configuration rifle could be made using the action. However, I would copy the Wby system of having the feeding completely controlled by the magazine (whether stagger or in line) so that all the receivers were the same so that conversion to a larger case size was greatly simplified.

We see a similar thing with selection of bore size. The shooter often selects a particular bore size because of the number of bullets available. However, he does not make use of all the bullets but he buys because he knows the potential is there.

One last point if I may. If they had the biggest action that would generate publicity which would flow onto their small action.

Mike

BB, The ph will do for 95% plus of the cartridges that one might want to use but those of us that like the really big bores and cases are SOL when if comes to affordable actions.

The point that Jeff made is right on. If they would simply change a few things they could capture a bigger market share and not loose any of what they are going after right now.

Nuts like me and the others on this bandwagon tend to spend a lot of money on our big bores and we also tend to have a lot of them. For me I have at least a dozen project guns that I will be building and some need a Mac brs action or a granite mt or a falling block action like borchard. Not a cheap way to go. An alternative would allow me to get the rifles built and on to the next one faster, as gathering up 2500 bucks for a GMA action is harder than 600 bucks for the MRC. In the end I build at lest a rifle a month and you can usually double that.

Jeff, true enough just make the bolt bigger and we got it made. It would be nice to enlarge the threads from MRC for simplicity sake. It doesn’t hurt the regular PH users and helps eliminate a step on the smiting side for things like the 600 OK or 700DA.

When 75% of those that responded either would only use the modified version, would prefer the modified version or would buy more of them if they switched to the modified version I simply don’t see how this can be ignored my the bean counters at MRC.

In fact if they make the changes as stated I will double my order from 4 Ph actions to 8 as soon as it confirmed. Come on Jeff please hear what is being said here and tell the boss man and his accountant and investors to give this some serious thought. Hell, forget the thought, just do it. I can’t see an argument against doing it. Your not going to loose any sales only pick up new ones.

I’ll even prototype a few for you. No charge. Send me the files and give me a month and I’ll get you working PHs with the changes mentioned and a single stack. This is what I do for a living so please take me up on my offer. I don’t think it can get any easier than that.

John

Ed Did you ever get a chance to send me a 700 HE case. I want to get some drwaings together and get the planning for the 700 DA, although I think a shorter version of your 700 may be the easiest way to go.

John

Come on guys! 25 votes is not enough for me to go to the old man and say "if you built it they will come". I need more PLEASE. I'm sure most of you know what it is like to have a stubborn old Dinosaur as a dad. Well.....I need more input in order to get him to see the light and make that change. Would it be a simple change, sure. Like Jeffesso says "it's just a few clicks of the mouse" Would it hurt anything to change it? No. Will he change it without a lot of people wanting it...No. Here's the deal, he's more afraid that if we do this and one of you "Nuts" blows yourself up, who is your widow going to sue? One way around that is that the warranty would be void if you alter it, which you would be doing in order to make it fit those cartridges. So, if you guys really want this put some facts together for me and I will take it to the man.

Jeff, don’t get your knickers in a bunch here.

Ok only 25 votes in less than a week. You've been offering the PH for over 2 years and have what 250 orders. 25 votes is a 10 % increase in less than 7 days. The facts are all here for you to see. If you and the old man have decided to stay with what you got that's your choice and I'm certainly not going to bad mouth you for doing it. I simply see an opportunity for you to sell more and therefore get into production sooner. I've been hearing from MRC "we hope for next quarter" for the last two years. It’s getting old and I know you’ve had people back out because they got tired of waiting. You have some excitement about your product and as time passes so does the bloom on the rose.

Liability runs with the business. Doesn't matter what size action you build. You are actually less likely to have a legal problem with people that design non sammi cases. You may have to go to court but you will most likely fair okay. No I'm not a lawyer but it makes sense to me anyway.

I have 4 on order with you now and because of the wait and the delays after promises every one of the guns planned for those 4 actions was built on a different action. Now I’ve gone on to new guns and could still use the actions but to be frank there is a limit before I say this is never going to happen and try to start up a relationship with a company that delivers.

My intent with this post was to get you some information to help convince but your tone and attitude tells me you’re set and that’s that. It’s your choice and that’s fine but don’t chew off the hands of the people that will potentially be buying your product.

John

I must not have put enought laughter into my reply huh? I didn't mean it to come off as that, I meant it to be towards other people getting on there and voting. The more info I have the better chance I'll have in convincing him to make the change. Just for the record, I too see the benefit of making the bolt .850, but alot of the other suggestions probably won't make it.

Jeff,

Also keep in mind that postings are like "letters to the editor" and each letter really represents a lot of people.

What the thead is not doing is getting a bunch of people putting forward the view that the bolt should not be larger.

Mike

Well, I'm going to take my father's advice and say "adios". If anyone needs to reach me about suggestions you can call into the office. I tried to get on here to help answer some questions, keep in the mix with everyone out there, and take advice from our customers from time to time. However it seems like everytime I do, my words get twisted around ( you can take a printed version of a sentence several ways). My email is jeff@montanarifleman.com and the phone # is 406-755-4867. God Bless

Jeff
is that "i hear you guys, but I am in a tough spot" or "it's my ball and I am going home? "

I think it's more of the first...

On dad worrying about people hurting themselves.. hell, you are sell a monster action.... does the world care if you are selling frankenstein or werewolf?

As we've talked, me, myself, and I (the jeffe trinity.. heh) just want the larger bolt.. the rest i can work around

jeffe

Jeff@MRC--Please build the action like we
need(.850 bolt-1.2 barrel threads- action is already 1.5 inch diameter) for the our belted 700 cases, built and shortened from
BMG brass,and to use regular 700 NE, 600 NE
cartridges & you won't have no problems with
safety.With larger diameter you'd have heavier and larger cross-section bolt lugs to have the proper shear rating.Our cases are as strong
and safe(not thin web junk) as a bank
vault.And NE loadings are at moderate levels
for break actions, so your bolt design would
be very safe.Here is picture some our sectioned belted cases.The case on the right is my 700HE and the base is .340 in thick. so it is
super strong..Ed

John and Jeff--Will have the cases sent to you
Tuesday...Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Jeff@MRC--Please build the action like we
need(.850 bolt-1.2 barrel threads- action is already 1.5 inch diameter) for the our belted 700 cases, built and shortened from
BMG brass,and to use regular 700 NE, 600 NE
cartridges & you won't have no problems with
safety.With larger diameter you'd have heavier and larger cross-section bolt lugs to have the proper shear rating.Our cases are as strong
and safe(not thin web junk) as a bank
vault.And NE loadings are at moderate levels
for break actions, so your bolt design would
be very safe.Here is picture some our sectioned belted cases.The case on the right is my 700HE and the base is .340 in thick. so it is
super strong..Ed

John and Jeff--Will have the cases sent to you
Tuesday...Ed.

Hey guys

I would love to have one of the larger bolt faced action..

The nice thing here is the fact that i came out with a ..Fun bullet.. for Ed's tank killer round

Its the 850 grain .700 In a 0.050 jacket wall

Your going to need the bigger action for the larger /long case length to gett he most out of this bullet.. and if i may say at $1.90 a pop that is not bad for a 70 cal plinker bullet
that can be used to drop Rhino<-- some plinker ah what.

Thay come in box's of 25 and up...

So someone needs to make a super strong action to get the most out of this round.
and a larger bolt face should fit the bill.

Martin


PA Bullet's

quote:

Well, I'm going to take my father's advice and say "adios".

This is listening to your customers? You and your dad need a thicker skin if you hope to survive in this business.

Believe it or no I am actually on your side and have said so numerous times. You guys had some rough times getting thru the introduction of the other actions and as far as I know you made everything right. No small task especially since money is always an issue.

True enough you can't get a feel for someones tone with the written word. All the same your post came acros to me as a "get lost" when all I was trying to do was help. If I miss read I'm truely sorry.

I wish you all the luck in the world and hope you do decide to make some alterations but it's the last you will hear from me. Too bad, I think I've made some very genreous offers to help you.

John

Jeff,

Which one of your customers asked for that ridiculous Sako bolt release? It seems someone thinks that only his ideas are good ones. That is not a formula for success in business, unfortunately.

Perhaps there are only orders for 250 actions because the design NEEDS TO BE CHANGED to attract a broader customer base. Or perhaps only 250 people are willing to get on a 4+ year waiting list, but 50 times that many would buy the product if it were actually available. Several times I have attempted to buy something in a furniture store, but walked out without a purchase on learing the piece I wanted was 'special order'.

bump...
some of the ed, john, jeffe talk on the 700 3.25