The thread on the .450 Rigby got me to thinking. Besides Dakota, does anyone else make a .375 length CRF action on which to build a .458 Lott?

WINCHESTER--convert a dime a dozen 300 win mags. I am building 5 of these now all 458 Lott, all 22 inch barrels, and all from either 300 wins or 7mm rems I had laying around hoping to do something good with. Since I really can't put a 500 MDM on them easy, I am going to turn every single one of them into 458 Lotts with nice AI stocks on them!

Winchester or just stay at the house!

M

winchester - the 30-06 action is long enough
remington - m700 +sako (that's grey, i know)
remington - 798/interarms
Cz - 550 magnum
montana rifleman
Empire
"legacy" used to have a std 98
ruger - the 30-06 m77 CAN be done fairly easily
ruger - rsm
enfields- m17, p14
GMA
satterley

others?

From all I've seen, read and heard, the CZ 550 Safari action is great for the Lott.

If I wanted a Lott, I would just buy a CZ factory rifle and tweek it.

KB

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Winchester M70

Oh, did I mention, Winchester M70?

M

Jeez Luieez, Michael, make up your mind, say what you really mean. And say it like you mean it.

What are you doing to those 70s? Are you adding drop box magazines?

KB

guys, am I wrong in thinking that a .458 Lott will not fit into a standard length Winchester action like the one on there standard sporter? Are those 30-06 length or .375 H&H length or is it the magazine box that has to be lengthened? I thought the standard Winchester action was too short.

excluding the wssm, current m70 are 2 lengths, right? short and long ..

it USED to be one length, pre64 ...

if someone can make it work in a SHORt 1909, then a model 70 is a POC.

jeffeosso,
What is a "SHORt 1909"?

KB

the mag box on the 1909 arg is shorter than most m98s

I have two Argentine 1909 bottom metal units, and used to have several more. I had them to fit onto a variety of mil-surp '98 actions, including VZ24, S42, S42G, and others. They all fit exactly like they fit the 1909. The lip of the box matches up exactly with the feed ramp.

Also, how in the heck can it be possible for a Lott to fit inside that box?

KB

inside .. get your calipers out..

you recut the box.. just liek duane did to make one a 500 jeffe.

quote:

guys, am I wrong in thinking that a .458 Lott will not fit into a standard length Winchester action like the one on there standard sporter? Are those 30-06 length or .375 H&H length or is it the magazine box that has to be lengthened? I thought the standard Winchester action was too short.

Dave and KB

I am no gunsmith, so Jeffe correct me if I am wrong. Two Winchester Actions (excluded WSSM) short and long. Change the magazine box out of the 300 wins or whatever and put a long one in, RTG. Ready to go for 458 Lott length in the magazine. All the actions are the same either short or long.
Not sure exactly what they did to work with the WSM cartridges, but still yet that's a standard short action as for the length.

That's why I can easy convert all these 300s and other trash I bought to convert only, to 458 Lotts. I had hoped to convert some to other things but it's just too much work involved and not worth the effort.

Oh, I did mention that the only thing to use for such a project is a Winchester M70???? Did I say that?

Michael

Politely said, I think you guys are nuts.

You evidently know something that I don't - probably a lot of stuff. So, have at your conversion projects, altering magazine boxes, and drop bottom, and custom stocks to fit, and cutting away at feed ramps, and feed rails too, and opening the receiver as well, custom scope bases, and triggers, etc. etc.

My 458WM is more gun than I need, and it works very - very well in an unmodified Ruger 77 MKII receiver. If I needed or wanted a 458 Lott, you couldn't talk me into using a Winchester or 1909 action if YOU paid the gunsmith bill - twice - and I got a refund.

I would use the perfectly good, and correctly sized CZ 550 safari action, or the factory made rifle.

That's my opinion, and of course you are welcome to yours.
KB

PS, just remember: A Rem 700 DGR is an oxymoron.

KB,
i've been called worse.. but not as accurately .. yes, its kinda nutz!

a winchester to a lott is, starting with a 300win, exactly the same as with a ruger 300win .. replace the barrel, make a mag, alter the action as needed, and shoot!

why the reluctance to use the winnie? its the same action they do 416 rem and 375HH, same length case, and same issues.. as well as lott and capstick from the custom shop

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

why the reluctance to use the winnie? its the same action they do 416 rem and 375HH, same length case, and same issues.. as well as lott and capstick from the custom shop

I've got a Win 70 in 375HH, and another in 338WM, and there are differences - bolt stop, magazine, follower, rear bridge, the port opening is different, and there may be other differences, upon closer inspection.

I'm pretty sure the 338 action can be opened up to accept a 375 H&H length cartridge, but why, why, why? Without a custom (read $500$) bottom metal unit it's still three down.

The CZ is 5 or 6 down, and no mods necessary, just shoot.

The CZ has a great and strong forged receiver, the port opening is plenty big for no hangup in ejecting those big cases, the receiver has built in scope bases, which accept the great NECG ghost ring sight, the trigger is great, the safety is great as two-position, but CZ offers a factory replacment drop-in three-position. The bottom metal is steel. It's CRF. I could go on.

Oh, I forgot to mention - the CZ is a real C-ring Mauser. The Win 70 is a bastard - no ring (better idea???)

KB

just talking.. wish it was over a beer, smoked salmon and blue cheese ...
the "work" to make a model 70 work is largely ordering cheap parts, and a little mill time .. i got a mill and a brownells account, and a little experience ...

i am telling you, its harder to convert a edstroyer to 7,62x25 than to do a 338 to 375 ... seriously, that's a CAKE job ...

299 for bottommetal, but the stock to fit it is the killer...

of course, it caould weight a pound less than the cz .. and that's a plus and a minus ...

of course, you can rebarrel to any of my AR carts with just a barrel and feedramp .. and have a lott in a standard action ..

which is why i designed them thata way .. 5 of the rounds i've done or was a contributor on (the 550 express was with Neal) are max 3.35 .. so it fits in a standard action!
jeffe

jeffe, I'm sure you know I called ya'll nutz in a friendly way. Heck, I'm nutz too. BTW, I'm planning on smoked salmon, cheese, and plenty of beer this weekend.

Also, it's easy to see that I'm bias in favor of the CZ, for this application. I wouldn't trade my Win 70 in 375H&H for a CZ in 375, as an example. Nor would I trade my 458WM Ruger for a CZ Safari 458WM. I firmly believe in fitting the cartridge to the action (no mods is best), rather than the other way around. I've spent too much frustration and money on "making it feed", and want to avoid that issue as much as possible.

After all, the Lott is primarily a DG cartridge, so having extra cartridges down is a plus. Also the extra weight of the CZ is a plus IMO. My 458 is really light, and I would hate to pull the trigger on a full power load. Also, and most importantly, a DGR should function perfectly. IMO the CZ can come as close to perfect function as one can get, maybe with a little tweeking, but it's worth it for the assurance.

When I inspected and messed with a friend's CZ in 458 Lott, it looked like a perfect mate of cartridge to the action. It's like that action was made for that particular cartridge.

KB

KB

I have half dozen Winchester M70s built by Winchester in the Custom Shop. There is no magic or work to do for 458 Lott in a M70. The big change from 300 win to 458 lott is that little metal box in the magazine, maybe a follower, that's the basics. I can do that. Change the barrel and go to work. Maybe a tiny bit of rail work, maybe not. Nothing big to do, no major operations. Easy convert.

And I would not trade one of my Winchester M70s in 458 Lott for 100 CZs, even if you gave me the guns, and paid me to take them. Of course I am no fan of CZs. But they are cheap to start with, and by the time you fool around with one long enough to get it to work, if that is possible, you have spent enough money to have a fine Winchester to start with.

You don't need anymore than 3 rds anyway. I have on several occasions been able to load up 3 more without issue when needed. No Worries!

Not sure if I mentioned this or not, Winchester M70?

HEH
Michael

Michael,
As I remember it the M70 feeds off the lips of the sheet metal magazine box, so that should make it easier to modify the box to accept the longer/fatter cartridges.

That CZ just has to be more complicated, since it feeds off the action rails, like a real Mauser. Oh wait -- the CZ requires no modifications, it comes ready to feed properly from the factory. !!!

That capacity issue with the CZ is a real problem too. I mean just how many intrepid DG hunters would think to run his CZ 458 Lott at half throttle, and immulate the M70 by putting only three in the magazine? The answer of course is: all M70 aficionados. Oh wait -- they wouldn't be carrying a CZ in the first place.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Michael,
As I remember it the M70 feeds off the lips of the sheet metal magazine box, so that should make it easier to modify the box to accept the longer/fatter cartridges.

That CZ just has to be more complicated, since it feeds off the action rails, like a real Mauser. Oh wait -- the CZ requires no modifications, it comes ready to feed properly from the factory. !!!

That capacity issue with the CZ is a real problem too. I mean just how many intrepid DG hunters would think to run his CZ 458 Lott at half throttle, and immulate the M70 by putting only three in the magazine? The answer of course is: all M70 aficionados.

KB

Hey KB

Well I must admit I really don't have much experience with CZ's. I have only been around 4-5 of them. 458 Lott for the most part, and a 416 Rigby and 375 HH. All just factory guns. But I have yet to see one feed an entire magazine without a malfunction? Maybe that was just the ones I was around? None of them worked, even with round nose bullets. So I don't know. Just from those few I suppose I may have gotten a bad taste of them. The last one I was around was Paul Truccolos in Australia. Of course it had issues too, a 458 Lott and would not feed proper. I am building Paul a new 458 Lott with one of those Winchesters, and a 500 MDM on a Winchester M70. Anyway..........everyone has a favorite, I am not sure if I mentioned to you that mine was a Winchester M70 or not? Can't recall? Hey, still got those two Winchester M70 9.3X338s you like so good too! Of course they are now retired in favor of the lighter, shorter, 9.3 B&Ms!

Michael

Michael,
I can only wish I had the skill, tools and knowledge that you have. So, believe me that I respect who I'm talking to here, you and jeffe. I even respect the opportunity to talk with guys like you.

I'm curious, since I don't have my M70s here to inspect, am I correct about it feeding off the lips, rather than the rails?

I think I mentioned that I messed with a friend's CZ in 458 Lott, and I found no problems with it feeding. Of course that's just one example, but you probably know how particular I am about feeding. If it had a problem, I probably would have noticed. But that was only one example.

I also had the opportunity to test a safari action once, just the action, and it too seemed fine. I actually owned a CZ safari in 375 H&H for a while and shot about a box through it, and tested feeding pretty well with it. While the cartridges seemed loose and rattled in the magazine, it fed ok. I sold the CZ, because I like my M70 in 375 H&H better, even if it does feed off the lips, and hold only four down.

Most of my CZ experience is with the medium action, and I've had no problem with any of them, (at least six) especially regarding feeding. I've shot at least two others in 9.3x62, belonging to friends, and they were great too.

It's too bad that some CZs have been trouble in the feeding department, because IMO they are great actions. I've had trouble with M70 feeding, but it's rare.

Anyway, AHR can remedy any feeding issues with the CZ - I'm sure.

I certainly haven't retired my 9.3x338. I'm just getting started with it. Based on a picture you posted of the Barnes 9.3 in 250gr, I got a box and they shoot into itsy bitsy little groups. The rifle is now sighted in for that load. I've got my bear tags already, just in case.

KB

how about one of the magnum size mark x actions? should work for a Lott.

IMO, the term "magnum size mark x action" is a misnomer. It's the same size action for the 30-06 as it is for the belted magnum cartridges, including the 375 H&H. The magazine is a little longer for the 375, but not wider, and some metal is sacrificed off the feed ramp, making the action weaker.

IMO, thinking about doing a Lott on a Mk X is a real can-o-worms. Sure it can be done, but at what cost, and why, why, why?

The magazine would have to be wider at the front for starters, and the feed rails too - probably. Blackburn, and others make a custom magazine that would probably do the trick, at a price of close to or over $500, properly installed. I have never seen a Mk X worth puting that much money into.

As a matter of fact, I gave up on the MK X action, although I have two or three shooters. I doubt I'll ever do another one. I especially won't mess with one for any magnum cartridge. While some feed well enough, most I've seen have unredeaming qualities for feeding magnums. The cartridges either pop out too soon, or just fail in some other way to feed properly. The follower, and width of the standard magazine just isn't wide enough to allow the magnum cartridges to stack right.

KB

Ya'll got me curious. I just got out my CZ in 7mm Mag, which has the medium action, and tried some of my 458WM handloads in the magazine and feeding. Of course the bolt won't close, but I can see clearly that the cartridges feed great. This action will require no modifications whatsoever to function perfectly with a 458WM, just rebarreling. Of course the same applies to the Ruger 77 action. My 458 is a rebarreled Ruger stainless action that was factory barreled in 338 WM. It feeds properly with absolutely no modifications to the action. The cartridges stack right, with three down. Ruger uses a different magazine box width for the 30-06, compared to the belted magnums like the 338WM.

Of course this isn't the Lott, but it does address the question about the MK X and it feeding standard 2.5" belted magmum cartridges. I'm sure some will disagree with me about what I said on the MK X not feeding magnums well - generally. I don't care whether I'm agreed with or not on that. What I see is what I believe, especially when it comes to feeding in a rifle.

And what I see in this one example, is my CZ 550 medium magnum action feeds 458 WM slick as a well lubed whore, far better than I've ever seen ANY MK X feed magnums, and I've tried more than a few of them.

For me personally, I doubt I'll ever own a 458 Lott. It's a great cartridge, for those guys and those situations where its extra power can actually be useful. To me and for my use, it's superflous, which makes things much simpler for me. I find it intense to shoot a 458 WM, downloaded, and I really don't like shooting full blast 458 WM factroy ammo. Also, three cartridges down in the box is plenty for me.

I have just been giving my opinion on which action for the Lott, if I were to buy or have one put together. And that opinion is based on actual observation, with certain factors in mind, foremost such as the extent of modifications to the action to get it to work properly. I'm real clear, for myself, the less the mods to the action the better, with no mods = the best situation. It's too bad the wildcard is thrown in giving doubt of the reliability of the CZ safari action - factory fresh. That hasn't been in my experience with any of the CZs I've tested. Also, I make a distinction between tweeking an action, and modifications. Tweeking would include polishing and cleaning up rough spots, where modification would be making the box wider or longer, or removing (or adding) any significant metal to an action. Except for the very expensive custom actions, the CZ safari action is the only one that I can think of that's close to ready to go for the Lott, at an affordable price, and at most may require tweeking for proper funtion.

One thing I like about the 458 WM, besides it having "enuff" power for anything, IMO, is that it's much easier to find a good action for it, and to get it to feed really well. It's almost a no-brainer for a really reliable and hard thumper, for those who need or just want that much power. A real plus for me is that the 458WM is easier to load down, and the rifle can be lighter, and the barrel shorter, without being too brutal.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Michael,
I can only wish I had the skill, tools and knowledge that you have. So, believe me that I respect who I'm talking to here, you and jeffe. I even respect the opportunity to talk with guys like you.

I'm curious, since I don't have my M70s here to inspect, am I correct about it feeding off the lips, rather than the rails?

I certainly haven't retired my 9.3x338. I'm just getting started with it. Based on a picture you posted of the Barnes 9.3 in 250gr, I got a box and they shoot into itsy bitsy little groups. The rifle is now sighted in for that load. I've got my bear tags already, just in case.

KB

KB

Oh man, I wish you were not so far off base with your first couple of sentences above, especially concerning myself. No man, you are very wrong. I am but an idea man, and a monkey that pulls the trigger! I have ZERO gunsmithing skills and zero talent! In fact they don't dare let me have any motorized tools or equipment here, it gets confiscated before I can do permanent damage. On occasion I can slip a bastard file in the lab and you should see what I can destroy with that! Don't say anything, but I did manage to smuggle in a moto tool, and have been destroying some things with that. Oh well, whatever I destroy I just send to Brian at SSK and he fixes it! LOL

Jeffe on the other hand is a skilled individual and knows far more about tech things than I will ever know.

Now heres the deal with the Winchester, has a magazine box that slips in under the rails on the receiver, allows for proper fit of whatever cartridge. 7mm mag, 300 mag, 338 mag, 458 mag and so forth all have a shorter mag box to fit the length of those cartridges. 375 HH, 416 Rem, 458 Lott have a different mag box to fit the length of those cartridges. Change boxes and wham bam end of story. That should do most everything, feeding is not the issue anyway, it's retaining the cartridges in the magazine that can become a slight issue. OK an excellent example is my 458 and 50 B&M on the WSM actions. Now those actions and boxes are designed for 270-7mm-300-325 WSM. Small little undersized bullets up front. So retaining is easy. Now we throw a cartridge in that holds a 450-510 gr bullet in it's nose and they like to flip up in the front. A little bit of work (NOT BY ME) and Brian sorts that out for me in short order to where it's 100% reliable, about an hour of work, but one must know what they are doing, I do not myself. Now one could run into the same issue with converting from 300 Win to 458 Lott. Big 500 gr bullet in the nose, but it is an easy fix with someone who knows what they are doing, and I have that guy! Doing a Winchester from 300 to 458 Lott is a very easy conversion, mag box, maybe a little rail work, and that's it. Bolt face, and everything else is the same. 300 WIn, 7mm Rem, 338 WIn, 458 WIn 458 Lott, 470 Capstick, all based off 375 HH. Same everything.

I can't speak for anything except a Winchester, I am very ignorant about other rifles!

But, what I don't know, I know where I can find out!

Hey that 9.3 250 Barnes TSX is the ticket, that will be my main number 1 bullet for my 9.3 B&Ms. SUPER Accurate in them too. Running a tad over 2700 in the B&M case. I am sure you are up in 2800's???

Do keep us posted on the bear if you get a chance to use that tag!!!!! I want a bullet report over on the TBP thread if you do!

M