When Browning re-introduces the Winchester M70 here is what I would like to see:

Every rifle built has been checked and double checked to be right on spec (a tight spec too).

No major screw ups are allowed to move down the
assembly line, each previous step it check at the next step.

Ditto for minor screw ups. Thet are corrected.
If realy small they are documented with the paper work that normally comes this the new gun.
Yes this will up the cost of the firearm so what I would pay it.

I would rather pay 60% or more for a rifle that when handled new out of the box you could tell this was built right the first time. It would put a whole box of a named factory brand of ammo in 1.75 inch group or better at 100m.

The only difference between the factory rifle and the custom shop version would be the stock. The grade of wood use in the stock, the features added and the finish applied to to it.

The basic metal work would all be the same minimum tool marks no metal that looks ripped or torn rather that cleanly cut with sharp tools.

Quality would be perfectly falling within a rather tight specification. Only engraving or french gray surface treatments would be different.
The standerd blueing would be of such high quality it could not be improved on.

Re-establish the brand to the highest quality.
With modern CNC machines that are constantly checked for set up, well trained workers, fair management staff. Volume of sales plus a selling price that reflects the quality would insure profitabilty.
Anyone that offers suggestions to cheapen or reduce quality gets used as a target.

Now convince those in power that they will actually sell their $2000 M70 to more than a handful of wishful thinkers on an internet board.

I wonder how much CNC setup is used at Miroku.

I currently work in the automotive industry... That being said, I've been on both sides of the fence when it comes to whom I've worked for. I started out of college working directly for a Japanese company. I left the company to move back home, and now I work for an American company. It is sad to see the decline in quality coming from American plants and even a decline in innovation. Anyway, given the current state of affairs, I know that the majority of Japanese companies strive for a MUCH tighter control on quality than most American companies. Like I said, it's sad to see the decline stateside, but it's the truth... The new "Japanese Winchesters" should be a much better rifle on the whole. I guess time and rifles will tell

The actual on the line labor cost is a small amount of the cost of the rifles.

If manufacturers could mandate that every employee take an extra 5 seconds before every step of the job to make sure that the work they are doing is the best that they can do, you'd get a huge increase in quality. Would it slow up the line? Probably one less rifle would get made every day but that's about it.

The problem is that too many people would look at that as a way to slack off and work slower. Unfortunately you can't mandate pride in your job.

Perhaps someone should point to management that it was the flaws and decline in quality that helped get them where they are today. Therefore, it won't do to return to business as usual for them because the original methods didn't work...

quote:

The new "Japanese Winchesters" should be a much better rifle on the whole. I guess time and rifles will tell

Despite their reputation for making "cheap junk", I cannot say that that reputation ever applied to their weapons!

The steel they used in their ancient Samurai swords was better than any in the world. In fact, they were making steel in Japan for nearly 1000 years before it became known how to make steel in Europe. Their bolt-action 6.5mm Arisaka infantry rifle was the strongest military bolt action ever made, and there has been nothing shabby about their post-WWII sporting arms either.

I've had personal experience with B.C. Miroku O/U shotguns, and also with several single-shot and lever-action Browning/Winchester type rifles made in Japan. All these products were superb, and I am sure anything they may make in the future along the lines of a Model 70 and/or M94 Win. will be quality-controlled products.

If the quality of their M70s is anything like that of my Jap made Browning A5 and BPS shotguns then I'll be the first in line to buy one.

sorry guys, i haven't seen a bad piece of japanese machine work made in the last 15 years. as much as I hate to say it, their motorcycles, cars, watercraft, and cnc machines, and even manual machien tools are only second to their german counterparts.

every howa/mikuru gun you see made in the last 15 years has not had a bolthandle fall of, or holes out of alignment...

weatherby, regardless of their faults, aren't known for low quality... cost cutting, sure, but not rubbish.


then again, if browning puts this out to bid to japan and they are cheaper than to have high quiality guns shipped to the US, then, well, sucks to be a member of a bloated union that gets you soo many benefits it strangles your job.

jeffe

I have no problem with either labor or management of any company getting paid well...as long as they make the best product for the money. Unfortunately while by and large both labor and managemnet have been overpaid for the most part over the last ten years, Japan, India and especially China have filled the void. Want to make a very good living in America? Then compete witb the rest of the world. We can't hide anymore.I would not be shocked if Winchester goes to Japan or China for that matter. We'll wait and see.

Pathfinder,
Interesting comment about China given that they produced a Norinco branded pre-64 like actioned rifle for the Australian market not too long ago in 7.62x39. Poor quality ... but the ability was there.
Cheers...
Con

Quality-wise, China is where Japan was in the late Sixties. They'll move forward over time.

analog_peninsula

quote:

I have no problem with either labor or management of any company getting paid well...as long as they make the best product for the money.

And more importantly, as long as the business makes money, which will secure that good wage into the future.

Cheers,
Canuck

We got the cart before the horse guys. The agreeement that allows Browning to produce and sell Winchester branded firearms DOES NOT INCLUDE THE M-70, M-94, OR THE M-1300 PUMP

It's still not decided what fate these models will have but Browning, at least for now, has no agreement to produce them.

Fabrique National owns the rights temporarily but there is a damnable clause to protect our worthless unions that prohibits their manufacture for the next 18 months or so. Assuming that Fabrique National decides to go forward with a Model 70 they could make it themselves or use Japan where Browning has the Model 71 made and that rifle is far better than the Model 71 Winchester as to fit finish and accuracy....I know I have both.
so if Moruku were to make the Model 70 I would not expect to see any flies on it.....

pancake cheekpiece
good sights
good QC
smooth the action
buy Williams bottom metal from the start
5 + 1 magazine capacity in 375 H&H or 458 Lott
pancake cheekpiece
2 pound trigger
double square bridge instead of round bridges
Smithson QD scope mounts
NO SHINY STOCKS LIKE THE CRAP THEY BUT ON BROWNINGS!!!

Dan,
so, basically, the MRC PH, with a decent stock and williams metal?

jeffe

Absolutely not!

Because I forgot to add:

Obendorf bolt handle
Mauser breech rather than cone breech
spring steel extractor
Mauser ejector
enlarge the ring (no more small ring b.s.)

Sounds like an excellent rifle... but not a $799 off the shelf winnie

They could do it in China for $288.00

RE Unions:
have you ever noticed that the US companies shipped all the non-union jobs overseas too?
I remember, in the seventies we sent most of the blue collar jobs manufacturing, etc, overseas. The white collar guys, like many of you here didn't complain, becasue we were moving into a high tech world where everybody wuld be a million dollar a year computer geek, etc. Well, boys and girls, have any of you spoken to your credit card company or bank people on the phone lately? The call center people are $8-15 dollar an hour jobs, and those jobs are all in India.
Call your banks 800 # and see where the call goes. Corporate America is starting to get a bit nervous, all those gravy mid-level management jobs are going too. At some point America becomes irrevelant to the world, who is moving rapidly away from the dollar.

The sales of Model 70's, etc are not enough, if every poster here bought one a week to keep who ever has the mfg rights in business a month. The blue collar people, like the ones in New Haven, are THE market, and they are not going to be buying many new firearms in the near future.

Ruger plants are 100% union, and Sturm, Ruger &Co is THE most profitable firearms company in the free world. They have this philosophy that is SR&Co against the world, and it is.

That's my rant for the month...
Like it or not, union people not only built this country, they built the middle class while doing it. No unions have done the damage to the US that junk bonds, or the S&L bailout did.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
Perhaps someone should point to management that it was the flaws and decline in quality that helped get them where they are today. Therefore, it won't do to return to business as usual for them because the original methods didn't work...

That is why Winchesters will be made overseas. They will gladly produce a superior product and we will be better for it.

Idaho;
If you wonder where your good job went, just ask your union president. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. I don't think unions made this country great, innovation and investment did. Unions only were ONE instrument for change. They were mildly useful at one time. Now there are fewer unions as their negative influence overshadowes their contribution. As far as corporate greed is conscerned, without businessmen and vision, there is no need for workers. No, I don't think CEO's should make the obscene amounts of money they do. I also don't think the average worker in the USA is worth 50-60 dollars an hour for line work. Jobs will be lost.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
The actual on the line labor cost is a small amount of the cost of the rifles.

If manufacturers could mandate that every employee take an extra 5 seconds before every step of the job to make sure that the work they are doing is the best that they can do, you'd get a huge increase in quality. Would it slow up the line? Probably one less rifle would get made every day but that's about it.

The problem is that too many people would look at that as a way to slack off and work slower. Unfortunately you can't mandate pride in your job.

IIRC (it's been a while) when GM and Toyota opened a JV plant in CA (under Toyota mgmt.) that is exactly what they did, every line worker was a inspector, and was encouraged to "stop the line" (a strict NO-NO in most automotive plants) in case of a problem with any car (part won't fit, stop the line and take the time to install it properly). The basic premise was that if you spotted a problem, the last person to pass along it had to make the repair, weather he was the one that caused it or not IE: your installing the bumper and notice that a lugnut is missing, the guy before you (that installed the headlight) has to install the missing lugnut). This caused every worker to check the entire unit for flaws, to take pride in doing there job properly, and to increase the overall quality of the product. Design flaws were also addressed at the same time (part A won't bolt to part B due to a design flaw, some engineer will be getting dirty making corrections to the offending parts before they hit the line).
It's a Demming thing, empower the workers to make the product better.

There is a late post over on 24hr saying that the New Haven plant will reopen making M70's and 94's using the present union.

"The Connecticut plant will re-open and the Model 94 and Model 70 will be back in production. The union will still be there and actually they were a big part of brokering the deal. Browning has the name and someone else (can’t say now) will be at the helm in Connecticut; not sure if it will still be called USRAC (highly doubtful).

I’m thin on details because my source doesn’t want to give too much information, but this much is certain. "

Link

One forgets that Winchester corporation makes nothing. It's workers do, so if the current crop of crap the union workers produce doesn't improve then they will not have a job for long and the owners will have no choice but to move the entire operation anywhere where the job can get done for a decent price and a to a higher level of competency. So much for American Union Superiority. What happened to the philosophy of a job well done? I see a lot of rifles in my travels and none of them can compare to the pre-64 model 70 as far as form, fit, finish and value. But that was when people took pride in their work and tried to produce the best possible product. Not a philosophy that is common now. Workers don't own the company, share holders do. Workers are worth a wage not part of the profits. If corporate America wants to entice better work from its workers by offering some profit sharing that is wonderful. It is not an entitlement in my way of thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
One forgets that Winchester corporation makes nothing. It's workers do, so if the current crop of crap the union workers produce doesn't improve then they will not have a job for long and the owners will have no choice but to move the entire operation anywhere where the job can get done for a decent price and a to a higher level of competency. So much for American Union Superiority. What happened to the philosophy of a job well done? I see a lot of rifles in my travels and none of them can compare to the pre-64 model 70 as far as form, fit, finish and value. But that was when people took pride in their work and tried to produce the best possible product. Not a philosophy that is common now. Workers don't own the company, share holders do. Workers are worth a wage not part of the profits. If corporate America wants to entice better work from its workers by offering some profit sharing that is wonderful. It is not an entitlement in my way of thinking.

My late dad owned a tool and die shop in that era from the 1940's into the 60's but he worked full time until he was 79 YO. He was a very happy and satisfied man. Sure he drove a Caddilac and had a 4 br house but that did not matter all that much to him. He was proud of a job well done.

That was his great reward in life. After he got home from work he would eat supper and then either do something with his family or go into the basement where he had his tools and machinery and fix something.

Almost every day he would come up the stairs with something in his hand and a story of how he fixed it or was able to figure out a way to correct a problem at work. People would say to him that they did not know how he could do it.

It was not hard for me to figure out. He just enjoyed the praise of a job well done.

You are going to end up like those you hang around with.

My wishes are simple. Just make a good, solid gun. No mis drilled holes, the barrels straight on the receiver, sights at correct position, inletted correctly. I would prefer not to have the high gloss plastic finish, but if necessary a few hours work with stripper will take care of that.
I won't get into the catfight regarding unions. I will only say, if the workers are getting paid to produce a product, and getting paid good wages to boot, then they should produce a good product, no flaws.
I don't think the product has to be priced any higer than it was before.
As for being made in Japan...well, the people in Conn. had several years to produce and make a good product. The past several years that seemed to not be a concern to them. So I guess if you can't do a job, and get customers, someone else will. That is the way any business works. It is not an "us against them", it is simple economics. If you work hard for your money and buy something, you want it the best it can be and not worry about problems.

quote:

adrook: If the quality of their M70s is anything like that of my Jap made Browning A5 and BPS shotguns then I'll be the first in line to buy one.

Me too. Miroku makes fine rifles & shotguns, always has.

I was at an egineering exhibition some months ago where I spoke to a tooling company, that manufactured custom high speed carbides.
He said the most demanding clients were the Japanese, always requesting higher quality and finer tolerance tooling.
They were talking toolbit tolerances of low single figure microns,so that after the cutter has passed, no final polishing would be necessary on supersmooth surfaced injection moulding dies.

I saw Jerry Stiller's Remington 700 style action and rifles at the NRA convention and had a long chat with his VP Curtis Helton. They sell it for $ 600 and the actions and two rifles that they had on display were really nice. How long before someone else makes 70 style actions and offers them to custom builders?

In production rifles, Kimber make a nice Model 70 style rifle and I am sure that someone else will come up with something similar as well, very soon. Browning could make the Model 70s in Japan but they would have competition from US made guns that are nice and reasonably priced. I doubt that anyone who wants a US made rifle would find it difficult to find an alternative to the future Japanese 70s. They may not have the Winchester brand name on them, but no one would have to worry about them being made overseas.

Cheers!