I ran across this while reading myself bedtime stories from the new Barnes Number 3 Reloading Manual and thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion. I am quoting this from page 478:

quote:

Now if hunters ask me for my recommendations, I advise them to use the X-Bullet, but in one weight less than they normally use per caliber for maximum performance. These lighter weight bullets deliver a more instant death performance than the heavier weight bullets in the same caliber on moderate weight game.

I am not sure if it is the combination of the extra speed of the bullet at the terminal end of its flight, or if the animal body slows the penetration of the lighter weight bullet a little faster. Whatever the case, the lighter weight bullet allows the bullet energy to expend itself within the animal, while the heavier bullet zips through much faster, not delivering the same amount of shock to the animal's "keep it alive" system.

The lighter bullet delivers a more consistent, faster "instant death" result at the shot, and that is what we are all looking for.

From what I gather, they are flying in the face of conventional bullet theory which advocates penetration, and saying that a bullet that comes to rest within the animal will thus impart more energy causing faster death.

Anybody have any thoughts?

I like the X bullets- in the right place. I recomend them for clients for use on buffalo. Penetration of the 450grn tripple shocks from a .458 is more than adequate for side or frontal shorts. From a .375 the 250grn is also adequate, but prefer the 300grn. But then- I don't recomend solids for buff- at least not for the first shot!

In rifles that produce deep penetration anyway, the X bullets are superb for buff. the .350grn in the .416's or 450grn in the .458 Lott or weatherby are superb killers.

On lion, the X bullets are to stoutly constructed for the initial shot - need to use the lighest weights and drive them as quickly as possible to get optimum expansion if you want to use them. For a follow up on a wounded lion, they are great.

Ganyana: On the 416 Rigby and buffalo, what's optimum in your view, a 350gr TSX@2600 fps or a 400grTSX@ 2500? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by JMJ888:

quote:

Now if hunters ask me for my recommendations, I advise them to use the X-Bullet, but in one weight less than they normally use per caliber for maximum performance.

From what I gather, they are flying in the face of conventional bullet theory which advocates penetration, and saying that a bullet that comes to rest within the animal will thus impart more energy causing faster death.

Anybody have any thoughts?

I couldn't agree with the Barnes quote more. I believe the monometal bullets make up for SD via construction,as the SD POV (which I have) is based on the bullet being inherently tough enough to withstand impat and retain weight. Yes, this can be taken to extremes.. for example, I would not be an advocate of a 250 FN X bullet in a 458 lott for DG... but it would put a HURTING on thin skinned game.

I would restate the barnes quote, by saying use an X (or tsx) bullet of the same LENGTH as your nominal conventional bullet, or there abouts, and load it to the speed of your conventional bullet.. that is to say, in the 458, use a 450 at 2300, rather than a 500 at 2300.

I prefer exit wounds... "B.O.B" and "D.R.T."... blood on both sides and dead right there...

You only stop an animal from THREE things.. electrical, mechanical, or hydrolic failures.. if you shoot a critter through the shoulders, break both, and a little low, you lay waste to the mechanics and hydolics.. a little high, swap electrical(clipping the spine) for hydrolic.

exits are good!

jeffe

As Jeffeosse explained, the Barnes 'X'-type bullets are longer for their weight than the lead-core bullets, so stepping down one level in 'X' bullet weight still gives you approximately the same overall length as say a Nosler Partition.

George

Look at it this way, once you use enough bullet to get consistant exits, how do you improve terminal performance? You improve it by increasing the dia of the wound channel, and you accomplish that by raising the velocity. The way to increase velocity is by dropping bullet weight.

Jorge

For you as a client- the 350grn bullets would be fine. they will open more quickly and casue greater tissue damage in the lung/heart area.

If I had a .416 - as a PH, I would opt for the 400grn. Why? I only shoot when the angles are poor- either a fast departing animal or a fast approaching one. The barnes bullets are great, but driving any expanding bullet from tail to heart takes some doing - and the greater SD and less expansion of the 400grns bullets will achieve this.

On a charge- I am fairly certain that the 350grn bullets would do fine- either penetrating through the skull or going in under the chin and breaking the spine- but since expansion is not really an issue for stopping a charge and a solid is generally better than a soft, I would stay with the 400grn.

I had a client shoot an ele with a 450grn X from a .458 Lott- complete penetration on a side brain shot. Impressive wound channel as well. It would proberly do for a frontal shot but I am not going to try it and would hesitate to let a client who's paying alot of shilling for an elephant try it unless he insists!

I did try this ... a 350 gr TSX load on .416 Rigby. Propelled the little bullet at 2700 fps, so it was fast, but not like a Weatherby.

First shot was a quick one. No sticks, Buff had turned and was headed behind a tree. Bullet hit a bit far back and went through the gut making a nice big exit hole.

When we tracked him up, he was standing broadside. Second round went just behind the shoulder. Was maybe just a bit high, but also went completely through leaving a nice exit hole. PH fired very shortly after I did and his .458 Lott entered the gut ahead of my first shot and exited nearly the same place mine did. He was using a Barnes X too.

Third shot was on the ground and I admit I could not see well. Bullet entered the back of the haunch, broke the right rear leg, went through the gut, and was recovered in the lungs. Penetration was 5 feet or more. Nose blew off of the slug almost back to the crimping groove.

Not bad performance for a "small" bullet.

I do think I'd agree with Ganyana ... not the best choice for El.

Mike Ganyana, thanks. I must admit I got a chuckle when Mike referred to a 350gr bullet a "little." . This forum IS the Big Leagues! jorge

quote:

Whatever the case, the lighter weight bullet allows the bullet energy to expend itself within the animal, while the heavier bullet zips through much faster, not delivering the same amount of shock to the animal's "keep it alive" system.

Some more of the ENERGY KILLS BS....
Penetration kills

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

Some more of the ENERGY KILLS BS....
Penetration kills

Within a given set of highly defend endpoints, it does.... not 100gr at 5000fps... but if the alternative can be around 400 to 500 grains, from 2250 to 2600, it's arguable.

or the militaries of the world wouldn't be using "KEM"s

I think the answer may be "it depends".

I've recovered 450g Barnes Xs from Elephant and Rhino that had their petals completely sheared off. They were launched from factory 460 WBY ammunition I chronographed at 2705 fps prior to leaving for Africa. Had I been using handloads for the trip, I would have typically chosen the 500g X at a lower velocity. Posted some pictures of the recovered bullets about a year ago here:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/1411043/m/949100633

The 460 WBY may be atypical of most rifles firing Barnes projectiles. Their advice may hold more consistently for rifles not so far up the high end of velocity spectrum in a caliber....But, as a rule, I prefer the next larger size at a little slower velocity when trying to get better penetration. The Barnes X is a great, great bullet though!

quote:

Within a given set of highly defend endpoints, it does.... not 100gr at 5000fps... but if the alternative can be around 400 to 500 grains, from 2250 to 2600, it's arguable.

or the militaries of the world wouldn't be using "KEM"s

Then why does the high energy of that 100gr projectile @5000FT/SEC not kill as effective? It has roughly the same enery as a 500gr bullet doing "only" 2250? Because it will not PENETRATE to destroy vitals. Now, even if that 100gr bullet was made of tungsten, will it kill a buffalo as relieble as the 500gr bullet? I think not. The 500gr bullet (expanding or solid), creates a much bigger permanent wound through vital tissue, so kills quicker. Does a buff know the difference between being shot by a 500gr (lets stick to the Barnes -x bullet, as thats what the thread was on before) at 2100 ft/ sec (from a .458 Win mag), or the same bullet @ 2450ft/sec from a .450 Rigby? I think not. Can a buffalo know/ feel the difference of a shot from 20yards, and one from 150 yards, both from a .450 Rigby shooting a Swift Aframe 500gr bullet at 2450.
The shorter shot has energy of 6403, and velocity of 2402, while the longer shot has e=4901, v=2101. Velocity or energy does not kill, energy give the "work" to penetrate yes, but cannot be related to effectiveness with regards to killing power. the reason people think enegry kills, is because a higher energy round hurts them more, so they deduct that it should hurt the animal more as well.