Hello all

Ok I have a ques for you gun buffs,

Will a 404 Jeffery fit on a Ruger African Hawkeye 416 Ruger action or not, and can the 416 ruger be rechambered too 404 ???

Kwan

Fistly I didn't think that the 416 Ruger was available yet in the African model ? Certainly not in Australia anyway.

The 416 Ruger is a shorter case, it's not as long or tall a case as the Jeffery so you would need a gunsmith to open the action up, to fit the longer Jefferey cases into the magazine. You see the whole idea of the 375 and 416 Ruger was that it could be fitted into Rugers standard long cast action, This saved hundreds of dollars in cost because we didn't need to buy the much bigger and longer RSM action.

But the main reason why you couldn't rechamber the 416 Barrel, with a 404 Jeffery Reamer is because the 404J is actually .422, it's bigger not smaller.

You could certainly neck a 404 case down to fit 416 projectiles, but would need a new reamer to cut that chamber

But even if it was the same size, I'm pretty sure the Ruger shoulders are wider at the same hight than the 404 case and would NOT get cut out and cleared with a 404 reamer

regards S&F

Actually it would be easier to make a 404 (or maybe a 422) Ruger, the cases would expand very easily, the chamber could be cut easy, you'd just need a 404 (.422) barrel

yes, its possible .. requires a rebarrel .. the 416 ruger is ballastically superior

.

Sectional density is the ratio of mass to cross-sectional area. How can a 400 gr .423" diameter bullet have a higher SD than a 400 gr .416 diameter bullet?

What is "static SD"?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
"the ruger 416 is ballistically superior to the 404 Jeffery" ????

Since when?

Since FOREVER, Alf ..you are trolling and you know it. A 404 Jeff, spec CIP, is NOT 400gr at 2400fps .. and such a load would not regulate in a classic rifle ...

can it be reloaded hotter? Yes.. but then its a WILDCAT, and no longer a SPEC 404 ..

To make the point more painful, the 500 jeffe can easily run 600gr past 2400 FPS .. but that's not the spec, is it? its 535 at 2380 ... and if one doesn't MAKE that load, its underloaded, aint it?

Who care's that the majority where built on what was available? He asked about rugers, not mausers .. and Alf, I doubt you've touched a ruger 77 mkII that wasn't an RSM.

get over yourself -- i am perfectly aware that you like to go back and erase or revise posts after the subject is closed ... I've taken to quoting you, just like shootaway, as that troll has indentical behavoir

Kwan was asking if the 404 would fit in the new Ruger Hawkeye.

Apparently the answer is yes it will fit or can be made to fit. And he will need a .423 barrel.

That sounds like a great idea. Lets encourage him. No doubt he is aware of the new Hornady loading. Hornady is not wildcatting. They are offering something new, like Ruger does sometimes.

Whats any of this go to do the 416 rigby, ruger,remington,taylor,weatherby or whatever?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
"the ruger 416 is ballistically superior to the 404 Jeffery" ????

Since when?

Since FOREVER, Alf ..you are trolling and you know it. A 404 Jeff, spec CIP, is NOT 400gr at 2400fps .. and such a load would not regulate in a classic rifle ...

can it be reloaded hotter? Yes.. but then its a WILDCAT, and no longer a SPEC 404 ..

To make the point more painful, the 500 jeffe can easily run 600gr past 2400 FPS .. but that's not the spec, is it? its 535 at 2380 ... and if one doesn't MAKE that load, its underloaded, aint it?

Who care's that the majority where built on what was available? He asked about rugers, not mausers .. and Alf, I doubt you've touched a ruger 77 mkII that wasn't an RSM.

get over yourself -- i am perfectly aware that you like to go back and erase or revise posts after the subject is closed ... I've taken to quoting you, just like shootaway, as that troll has indentical behavoir

Not sure I follow your logic or your reasoning. There are plenty of older rounds that are loaded beyond there "historic loadings" given the advancement in powders,etc. Not sure I would re-classify them as "Wildcats".

You know full well the 404 Jeffery has more capacity than the 416 Ruger but your interest seems to lie in the Rugers and your own line of cartridges....to each his own I guess.

.

Alf,
now you are both trolling AND creating a strawman .. i submit that the 416 ruger is better than the 416 ar .. BECAUSE its commerical.

Now, Alf, what load are YOU comparing to a 416 ruger? the CIP load or a wildcat load?

Ballistically superior... eaasy . same bullet has a higher MV, proximate SD, and higher BC ... the ONLY failing point of the ruger is that its "new" .. so was the 404 and the 416, one day ..

you are trolling and picking a fight via a strawman .. i've said REPEATEDLY that the 416 ruger obviates the 416 AR ..

WTH are you talking about with the 505 gibbs? 525gr at 2350 IS the CIP loading ... yes, it can be loaded ALOT hotter, but then it is not longer a gibbs, is it? Its merely a gibbs case...

"open to scrutiny" ,, Want to play that card? then STOP DELETING AND MODIFYING YOUR POSTS WHEN PROVEN WRONG...

Son, I've caught you TOO many times doing this, and quoted you .. then you edit your replies, changing the words, or deleting them.. or dumber, "." them ...

Have some intellectual integrity, step right up...

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Who is your "son" ? as far as I know I have but one father, now passed on !

That's about what I expected ..

actually, i expected a bit more foundering

Sorry to hear about your Father ..

Classic 404 jeffery loading -400gr at 2125 ..

while a ruger is 400gr at 2400 ...

any OTHER questions about the jeffery and the ruger, AT SPEC, are nostalgic, and have nothing to do with performance.

any questions about wildcats loaded to ?what? pressures in the 404 jeffery case (including it's gret gandy children, the AR rounds) are discussing different rounds than the 404 Jeffe...

no more than downloading a 458 winmag to 45/70 and then trying to campare the two is in anyway, shape, or form a productive discussion.

Have a nice night Alf ..

Jeffe

I don't want to get in the habit of disagreeing with you but...

The RWS 404 load(400gr @ 2330fps) has bee available for a long time(WW2?) and the 2125 fps loading has not been available for a long time(pre WW2?).

You could extend your argument to include the 416 Rigby as its original load was 400gr @ 2350fps. But if you said the "416 Ruger is ballastically superior" to the 416 Rigby we would laugh you off the board.

There are to be positive and negative attributes to all cartridges. Which cartridges we like depends on which negative attributes we choose to ignore.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
Jeffe

I don't want to get in the habit of disagreeing with you but...

The RWS 404 load(400gr @ 2330fps) has bee available for a long time(WW2?) and the 2125 fps loading has not been available for a long time(pre WW2?).

You could extend your argument to include the 416 Rigby as its original load was 400gr @ 2350fps. But if you said the "416 Ruger is ballastically superior" to the 416 Rigby we would laugh you off the board.

There are to be positive and negative attributes to all cartridges. Which cartridges we like depends on which negative attributes we choose to ignore.

Looks like more of attempting to get in a match with Alf......

Jason,
aint that fun?
but faster, same bullet weight, is still faster .. but its REALLY picking apart the deal ..

though we can also find pick apart loads for everything ... the norma 458 lott loads are loaded to less than 458 winmag ...

Of course, in the days before chronos, reported ballstics were estimates .. and VERY seldom made in the field.

Look, the 404 was meant to be the 450/400 in a boltgun .. PERIOD, fullstop.

that's 400gr at about 2150 REAL WORLD, or 2250 in 28" tubes ..

tell me how that's inferior to 400gr at 2400?

but, as along as we are picking things apart, the rigby is 410gr at 2380, not 400 at 2350

and, yes, the rigby is loaded to a more powerful loading than the 404 jeffery .. "We would all laugh at you" if you stated otherwise. ...

I once wanted a 404 J but when I got my 416 Ruger, that wanton for the Jeff vanished quickly. Unless you wanted something nostalgic to parade.....there is no longer a real reason to need one.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

and, yes, the rigby is loaded to a more powerful loading than the 404 jeffery .. "We would all laugh at you" if you stated otherwise. ...

Jeffe
I like you too much to argue with you about silly stuff, so this is the last time for at least a week.


My point, and it is a damn good one, is that you would be laughed at if you said the Ruger is ballistically superior to the Rigby because the current Ruger load is faster than the load used in the Rigby a century ago.

In this argument you really handicap the old rounds when you refuse to consider any loads other than those that were available when the round was introduced.

Jason ,
Here's kinda my point .. its inherently hypocritical to have the nostalgia for an old round, and then load it to modern standards ..

For example .. taking a 63 vette and putting a 265 hp caddy v6 and auto trans in it .. it WILL run better quarter mile times .. but its not longer a 63 vette in reality - It no longer compares to the OTHER 63 vettes, 327 or otherwise .. Its now something "different" .. right?

So, wanting a "404" FOR NOSTALGIA should include wanting it to be a 404 ... not a hot rodded, jacked up, compares with modern loads ...

I dunno .. you can get a 375HH to go 200 fps faster than "375 HH" with modern powders .. but then its no longer going to regulate to the sights nor actually be a 375 HH.

The ruger at spec (which the ludittes hate modern rounds) is 400gr at 2400 ... the ludittes LOVE the 404 jeffey .. 400 gr at 2150 (or even 2250 if you like) is the spec ... and that's obviously inferior to the ruger, IF YOU STAY WITH THE NOSTALGIA ... but once you hot rod it, how can anyone reasonably cling to "oh, its a cool old round" when its now not loaded the same?

In fact, isn't a 2400fps (safely) loaded 404 actually both NON-SAAMI/CIP and even more modern than a 416 remington, therefore forcing it to fail in the nostalgia terms?

So, yes, 2400 fps is better than 2250, every time, if the rifle and bullets are up to it ..

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
In this argument you really handicap the old rounds when you refuse to consider any loads other than those that were available when the round was introduced.

But if you don't "handicap" the old rounds, and load them to modern standards, ignoring the old loads, aren't you then actually canceling out the "old" part, and creating an equally new, or new round, and the nostalgia part should be thrown out?

This part wraps me around the axles .. if you load it NEW but call it OLD which part is disengenious?

You could always get a 416 Ruger and download it to the 404 Velocities.

John

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


The ruger at spec (which the ludittes hate modern rounds) is 400gr at 2400 ... the ludittes LOVE the 404 jeffey .. 400 gr at 2150 (or even 2250 if you like) is the spec ... and that's obviously inferior to the ruger, IF YOU STAY WITH THE NOSTALGIA ... but once you hot rod it, how can anyone reasonably cling to "oh, its a cool old round" when its now not loaded the same?

In fact, isn't a 2400fps (safely) loaded 404 actually both NON-SAAMI/CIP and even more modern than a 416 remington, therefore forcing it to fail in the nostalgia terms?

What kills me about this is that you ignore the fact that the 2330fps 404 load has been around for 65 years. The 2125fps load is obsolete and has been for for a long, long time.

And your point about the sights not regulating with this "modern" load is a red herring. How many of the 404s being used today utilize sights that were regulated for the original 2125 fps load?

And your Corvette analogy does not wash. Putting a modern engine in your old vette is like rebarreling a 404 to 416 ruger. Loading the 404 with modern powders is sorta like filling the old 427 corvette with race gas.

You could make the same criticism, becasue the 45/70 uses smokeless powder or jacketed bullets. It is still the same great old nostalgic round.

Unlike the 450 Marlin or 416 Ruger, that offer nothin new beyond a different shape package.

The 404 in a Ruger sounds like a worthy project.

Why the 7x57 never been popular in the USA, not enough glitzzy, new whiz bang image? I decided to settle for a 7mm08, a shame really?

yeah, i still don't get it .. but its not important .. I am an all in or all out kinda guy ...

we'll agree to disagree ...

.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

This part wraps me around the axles .. if you load it NEW but call it OLD which part is disengenious?

When you were born, you were given a name. You still use it correct? Are you the same?

Is it disengenious to use that name now or back then?

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

What kills me about this is that you ignore the fact that the 2330fps 404 load has been around for 65 years. The 2125fps load is obsolete and has been for for a long, long time.

I run my 404 with 400 at 2335 and that is what the factory RWS 10.75x73 rounds chrono'd.

Von Gruff.

Always amazes me that such a simple question on this forum can turn into such a pissin' match. You guys are great entertainment!