Other than nostalgia what is so great or different about the pre 64 winchester rifles when compared to the Hartford claw extractor models and the current new FN rifles?

Lets not discuss the non claw extractors models v/s the claw extractor models.

Nothing. They were great rifles considering what else was available at the time but there is nothing special about them now.

I have owned tons of M70s; PFs, pre-64s, New Haven Classics, and now the new SC FN models. IMO, the new SC rifles are the finest M70s ever, they are fantastic. I have never seen a pre-64 that even comes close to these new rifles. They really are spectacular.

Here is a pic of a SC M70 Super Grade that I own in .300 Win Mag. Wonderful rifle that I will never let go of.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Nothing. They were great rifles considering what else was available at the time but there is nothing special about them now.

Agreed. with the main bit in bold !!!


Although the one's I have seen didn't have recoil lugs so was not impressed.


.

Yeppers, worst doggone action I have ever seen. Ya'll buy the new ones and perhaps there will be more of the old junk for the old men!

quote:

Other than nostalgia

Nothing worth considering today. What made the big difference at the time was the new methods looked chintzy in comparision to the old ones but that didn't last too long - they sorta 'went outta business' with the owners at the time (Olin Chemical) and a conglomeration of old management raised the money to keep going a Winchester Repeating Arms and they improved a lot. Over the next few decades things shifted up and down and they chaged hands again.

Now they are owned by FN. It seems the old union labor and bean-counter management mindset have been replaced with production in a 'right to work' state, a new plant and good management. Things look better than ever for the old Md. 70; I would prefer to buy a new one rather than a pre-64!

During the past 46 years, I have owned, loaded for and used examples of almost every high quality production bolt rifle made. This, includes my custom (by Martini's) Dakota 76, pristine Mannlicher-Schoenauers, Type B Oberndorf's, FN sporters, Brno ZKK, ZG-47, 21/22 series and HVAs as well as many others to a total of about 125 rifles, I currently have 34 as I am slowly selling off some of my collection due to age and so on.

Of these, the largest percentage were/are P-64 Mod. 70s, 42 of them and many of mine were minty to unfired when I got them and are still in nice condition. My .338WM Alaskans and .270Fwts are, to my mind, probably the best hunting rifles for serious BC conditions ever made, as they come from the factory and one of the three best rifles ever, if slightly customized while retaining the factory stock.

The original trigger is absolutely the best HUNTING trigger ever put on a rifle, the barrels are uniformly excellent, IME and the rifles are good looking and well-balanced. They are the easiest hunting rifles to maintain of any I have owned and they will resist harsh handling and bad weather better than about anything.

I rank production bolt rifles as follows:

1. Brno ZG-47...nothing else equals these, period.

2. Brno 21/22...poor safety but superb in all other respects and the finest finished of all.

3. FN sporters, especially the earlier ones with the "C-ring".

4. Mannlicher-Schoenauers....superbly made, but, not as rugged as Mod. 70s.

5. Pre-64 Mod. 70s from 1946 to 1960ish...bloody fine rifles and superior in most functional-operational respects, trigger, safety, to anything else.

6. HVA rifles, damn good, but, stocks split and some triggers are pretty pisspoor.

That is about it, I have ONE customized sts Classic 70, shorter .338WM bbl. for leaving in my truck and prefer the P-64s by far. Each to his own, the major factor is "the nut behind the butt"!

Compared to a modern rifle, absolutely nothing.

That said, I took a lot of deer in my teens with a pre-'64 Winchester and, to me at the time, there wasn't a finer rifle on the planet. In fact, I still have it and like to pop a few rounds with it from time-to-time.

Maybe I'll take it deer hunting this fall...........

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
During the past 46 years, I have owned, loaded for and used examples of almost every high quality production bolt rifle made. This, includes my custom (by Martini's) Dakota 76, pristine Mannlicher-Schoenauers, Type B Oberndorf's, FN sporters, Brno ZKK, ZG-47, 21/22 series and HVAs as well as many others to a total of about 125 rifles, I currently have 34 as I am slowly selling off some of my collection due to age and so on.

Of these, the largest percentage were/are P-64 Mod. 70s, 42 of them and many of mine were minty to unfired when I got them and are still in nice condition. My .338WM Alaskans and .270Fwts are, to my mind, probably the best hunting rifles for serious BC conditions ever made, as they come from the factory and one of the three best rifles ever, if slightly customized while retaining the factory stock.

The original trigger is absolutely the best HUNTING trigger ever put on a rifle, the barrels are uniformly excellent, IME and the rifles are good looking and well-balanced. They are the easiest hunting rifles to maintain of any I have owned and they will resist harsh handling and bad weather better than about anything.

I rank production bolt rifles as follows:

1. Brno ZG-47...nothing else equals these, period.

2. Brno 21/22...poor safety but superb in all other respects and the finest finished of all.

3. FN sporters, especially the earlier ones with the "C-ring".

4. Mannlicher-Schoenauers....superbly made, but, not as rugged as Mod. 70s.

5. Pre-64 Mod. 70s from 1946 to 1960ish...bloody fine rifles and superior in most functional-operational respects, trigger, safety, to anything else.

6. HVA rifles, damn good, but, stocks split and some triggers are pretty pisspoor.

That is about it, I have ONE customized sts Classic 70, shorter .338WM bbl. for leaving in my truck and prefer the P-64s by far. Each to his own, the major factor is "the nut behind the butt"!

Dewey, I enjoyed your post but you left out the Oberndorf. Where would you place it?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Nothing. They were great rifles considering what else was available at the time but there is nothing special about them now.

Agreed. with the main bit in bold !!!


.................


.

Quote for truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Nothing. They were great rifles considering what else was available at the time but there is nothing special about them now.

Agreed. with the main bit in bold !!!


.................


.

Quote for truth.

I'm curious what your experience has been with them and how you are drawing these conclusions?

Cane Rat is right. They were good rifles for there time but the SC rifles made today are better guns and I would never pay the inflated prices that the Pre 64 sometimes command.

quote:

Cane Rat is right.

The new ones are also more accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
I'm curious what your experience has been with them and how you are drawing these conclusions?

Shooting them, handling them, taking them apart, looking at them next to other makes, owning a heap of various firearms from a range of manufacturers.

I get to see a lot of firearms in my travels
so when I see one, it is often next to others I can compare it to directly.

Some things I like, some I don't. They were good in the day but compared to what is out there now, not a patch on them.

.

Funny, here in BC, where going alone into remote wilderness areas populated with dangerous animals and Grizzlies are exactly that is more commonplace than anywhere except Alaska and perhaps Kamchatka, the "old Mod. 70" is still held in very high regard by those with both extensive gun and bush experience.

I can think of no contemporary rifle I consider superior to one of these and most are decidedly inferior in real terms. But, hey, whatever blows your skirt up, I will stick with my P-64s in .338WM., .300H&H and .375H&H as serious using rifles here until I "retire" from this at age 100!

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
Funny, here in BC, where going alone into remote wilderness areas populated with dangerous animals and Grizzlies are exactly that is more commonplace than anywhere except Alaska and perhaps Kamchatka, the "old Mod. 70" is still held in very high regard by those with both extensive gun and bush experience.

I can think of no contemporary rifle I consider superior to one of these and most are decidedly inferior in real terms. But, hey, whatever blows your skirt up, I will stick with my P-64s in .338WM., .300H&H and .375H&H as serious using rifles here until I "retire" from this at age 100!

Dewey, I agree with and share your sentiments exactly. Yours are words of a man who has been there and done that repeatedly in North America..


I still own about 150 sporting rifles of various kinds. Used to collect Mauser types A & B sporters. Then for a while I collected "big name" British sporters, and simultaneously, M/S sporters. Shot every damned one of them, frequently. (Yes, I do that with collector rifles...they are for MY enjoyment, not for someone who will get them when I'm in the final box.)

Anyway, have also hunted for over 60 years with those rifles, trying virtually everything I could out in the field.

Now my collections are all gone. But I still have 150 rifles, a few of which are my primary hunting guns.

Those "primaries" are as follows for North American "big" game:

- Pre-'64 Win M70 FW in .270 Win. A better plains or high, stoney, mountains deer gun never was. Accurate, handy, relatively light, slick fast bolt with great handle positoning, angle and shape for rapid at the shoulder manipulation. Great easily-adjustable trigger, with a geometric design virtually immune to fouling by dirt and water.

- "Pre-War" M70 .30-06 standard weight built in 1939. Just as nice attributes as the .270 above, not as light as a FW, but about as slick an action function as a Mannlicher-Schoenaer or an old Krag...that is, smooth as glass. This one is my primary moose rifle.

The stock, built to handle iron sights in those days, is perfect for its really low mounted Bausch & Lomb 2-1/2 to 8X scope in a Stith Master Mount. I throw it to my shoulder and my head is perfectly positioned behind the scope, unlike virtually any of the modern factory rifles of today. It's a perfect example of a purpose-built "off-hand" rifle, instead of a modern "bench queen".

- Ruger No. 1 custom built by the late Paul Marquart in 7x65-R. My primary elk rifle, just because it really fits my style of elk hunting.

- Custom Husqvarna 9.3x62, vintaqe 1951. Though I really like this rifle and its cartridge, It doesn't go out as regularly as the ones above because I don't like the factory angle or shape of the bolt handle, it doesn't feed as smoothly (never fails, but isn't as smooth or fast for me). Accuracy is about the same as my .270 FW, that is 1-1/4" inch for the first three shots at 200 yards, but somehow, it just doesn't have the "feel" I want and need to do my best instinctive field shooting. So it only goes along when I might run into a big bear somewhere and might want/need that big 286 gr. RN bullet.

I have and use many others, but for me those are the top four "killer" rifles for putting meat on the table when hunting.

What have the Model 70 pre-64's got? They have never failed me in 60+ years of pursuing game, and they have a feel in my hands that is unsurpassed. So why would I even consider going with something else if I don't need to?

quote:

Originally posted by Slider:

quote:

Cane Rat is right.

The new ones are also more accurate.

I have owned about 25 M70's, 6 of which were pre-64's. The ones I have the most trouble with from an accuracy perspective are -

1. Post 64 push feed.
2. Pre 64 any of them.
3. New Haven CRF's
4. South Carolina CRF's

I sold all of the pre 64's as I have trouble with each. I still have 2 push feeds as they were gifts. I have 6 from New Haven, I have sold 4 of the New Haven guns. I have 7 from South Carolina.

I shoot them a lot with factory ammo.

Every gun from South Carolina is a true MOA gun. Triggers are excellent and the quality is excellent.

All of this to say, if you laid a mint pre 64 in front of me next to a new super grade South Carolina post 64 - I would not even consider the pre-64, even if it were less price.

Accuracy and quality show forth.

I don't have anywhere near the experience that other posters have had with the pre-64 Winchester.

But I have some. And a pre-64 Winchester action made in 1953 and originally set up by the factory for the .300 H&H Mag. is now serving as the action of one of my favorite rifles.



It's now a .375 H&H Mag. I had a straightened bolt handle put on it (so I'm no purist), had it bedded into a great piece of hard and dense Claro walnut, and had a 24" barrel with NECG/Recknagel sights installed.

It shoots and handles (and looks) like a dream come true.

Plus, it was made at a time when workmanship meant something, and it says "Winchester" on the action. Call me sentimental, but that still means a lot to me.

What makes the Pre 64 great ? You dare ask?

At a time when American gunmaking was for the most largely dominated by the production of mass produced shit this was, like the Mauser 98 in Europe likely the only worth while production gun and action ever made !

The Pre 64 was and the logical American extension of the M98 after WW2

So great was it's influence and presence that twice now it has due to popular demand been revived.

First after the post 64 M70 as the Classic and now as the FN revival!

That in essence is testimony to it's greatness!

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
So great was it's influence and presence that twice now it has due to popular demand been revived.

First after the post 64 M70 as the Classic and now as the FN revival!

That in essence is testimony to it's greatness!

Excellent point,Alf !!

I also often have to wonder about the posts I see denigrating the pre-'64 model 70s regards their accuracy. 1/2" groups from the bench are pretty much irrelevant for hunting rifles, and that's what the pre-'64 Model 70 is...a superb hunting rifle.

What I have found counts in the field, is how the rifle performs as part of a hunting system...a system including how it works in the hands of the hunter when fired offhand in a hurry.

Any rifle which will come up already on aim, can be manipulated comfortably and quickly for the first shot and any needed follow-up shots, and is dead reliable, will work well even if it only groups 1.5 MOA from the bench.

The Model 70 proved it had those attributes back as long ago as 1937. That and a lot of obvious careful production work (for a factory gun) are what made it as popular as free ice-cream among hunters

It should probably have been called "The hunter's friend" instead of "The rifleman's rifle", but either way it was a true mid-20th century example of "form follows function"..

quote:

It should probably have been called "The hunter's friend" instead of "The rifleman's rifle", but either way it was a true mid-20th century example of "form follows function"..

Very well put. I tried the new M70 FN made in 300 Win Mag out on the range and we got a 1" group with factory ammo straight out of the box. Here in SA it it priced well against the competion such as Sako and Browning. It seems very well made and finished, but not quite as attractive as the Sako 85 that sells for much more.

Warrior

As a LH shooter, I don't have too many options for a CRF rifle which is the design I prefer. I have never had a problem with a M70 save 1 bent extractor last year.

I have one being made up into a 375 as we speak and I expect it'll provide a lifetime of useful service.

Gentlemen, read my post I asked what is so great of the pre 64 when COMPARED to the newer claw extractor Hartford CT models and the now FN rifle. Sounds like the new FN model 70s are the best from some users feedback.

compared to modern rifles - nearly nothing.

what was better about them? the cone'd breach. which is why they tend to feed so well.

other than that, I aint, and have never been, swayed by the "pre-64" label to an otherwise, today, unremarkable rifle

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
During the past 46 years, I have owned, loaded for and used examples of almost every high quality production bolt rifle made. This, includes my custom (by Martini's) Dakota 76, pristine Mannlicher-Schoenauers, Type B Oberndorf's, FN sporters, Brno ZKK, ZG-47, 21/22 series and HVAs as well as many others to a total of about 125 rifles, I currently have 34 as I am slowly selling off some of my collection due to age and so on.

Of these, the largest percentage were/are P-64 Mod. 70s, 42 of them and many of mine were minty to unfired when I got them and are still in nice condition. My .338WM Alaskans and .270Fwts are, to my mind, probably the best hunting rifles for serious BC conditions ever made, as they come from the factory and one of the three best rifles ever, if slightly customized while retaining the factory stock.

The original trigger is absolutely the best HUNTING trigger ever put on a rifle, the barrels are uniformly excellent, IME and the rifles are good looking and well-balanced. They are the easiest hunting rifles to maintain of any I have owned and they will resist harsh handling and bad weather better than about anything.

I rank production bolt rifles as follows:

1. Brno ZG-47...nothing else equals these, period.

2. Brno 21/22...poor safety but superb in all other respects and the finest finished of all.

3. FN sporters, especially the earlier ones with the "C-ring".

4. Mannlicher-Schoenauers....superbly made, but, not as rugged as Mod. 70s.

5. Pre-64 Mod. 70s from 1946 to 1960ish...bloody fine rifles and superior in most functional-operational respects, trigger, safety, to anything else.

6. HVA rifles, damn good, but, stocks split and some triggers are pretty pisspoor.

That is about it, I have ONE customized sts Classic 70, shorter .338WM bbl. for leaving in my truck and prefer the P-64s by far. Each to his own, the major factor is "the nut behind the butt"!

Dewey, I enjoyed your post but you left out the Oberndorf. Where would you place it?

Phil, I have never really considered the Obie sporters to BE "production" rifles and see them more in the class of semi-customs such as my Dakota, the Empire rifles you have written about and McMillan's "Talon" series from about 20 years, ago. However, I place them as equal in quality to the Mannlicher-Schoenauers, I have had and to the ZG and 21/22 series Brnos.

These last, when very slightly modded by a good smith are my alltime favourites for rifles to be packed in BC, AB and the "Territories" and the CZ-550 series is a decent heir to them, IMO.

AC, thanks, but, my outdoor experience with guns is confined to BC, AB and that is about it. I may go to Saskachewan this fall as I have been invited for some years by a friend, but, BC offers all the wilderness hunting I desire and I have no wish to go elsewhere.

You have many fine rifles and really should move to BC-the West Kootenays and we can be neighbours and shoot together as we share values as to what is "best"....

Id the P-64 "better" than it's heirs, YES, as it came from the factory ready to go, it was and is, IMHO. Is it "better" than what a genius like Darcy Echols can do with a Classic, well, probably not and we must remember that the Pre-64 was conceived and built as a field HUNTING rifle, not a bench or target piece.

MY issue with the nicely finished FN version and I have examined a number of these, is the trigger, plain and simple. It may well BE superior to the original for TARGET shooting, but, it will not deal with BC wet, cold, dust, mud and rough use of rifles like the old one did/does. That, to me, is very important, YMMV.

reddy375 - I don't have an FN rifle, but have some New Haven classics (CRF). They have all worked just fine for me; however, I do like the pre-64 anti-bind feature better than the newer one.

My input is try and find a CRF rifle in 300 H&H and good luck. The pre 64's are good to go. The only reason I'm looking for one is I love the nostalgia of the H&H's. I have owned plenty of post 64 winchesters both PF and CRF all shot fairly well. I think that its like classic cars they all are gas hogs, ride rough and handle poorly but why do people want to drive them Nostaligia! My 06 Mustang will kick butt on my 72 Datsun 240Z but when I cruise what cars turns more heads? Hence the pre 64's better probably not but fun none the less.

Brad

I been around a long time so of course I am fond of the pre 64, they have proven themselves over time and nothing beats that for how good or bad something is..The pre 64 passed all the tests in flying colors with nostalgia to boot..

I love the Peruvian and Chilean 1908 98 Mausers customized best of all and also the wonderful little Brno mod. 21 and 22, then the pre 64 and then a good FN suits me, single C ring or 2, either one will suit me..All of them are good actions and good rifles, with or without nostalgia..I would never choose a rifle on nostalgia, but it sure is nice when it goes with quality.

Michael Robinson sure has a nice .375 H&H, holds four down in the box, a 5-shooter.
It feeds .375 H&H flawlessy as it did 300 H&H before reincarnation.
It has the perfect box geometry for .375 H&H cartridges.
I cannot say the same for the CT/Classics nor the SC/FNs.
The CT/Classics had potmetal extractors subject to bends that would not spring back. Maybe some had Williams extractors, but most need replacement.
The new SC/FN MOA trigger, maybe swell, but the old one was too, and simpler.
I like all 13 of my M70s, when properly tuned up, like them all, only 3 Pre-64, 9 Classic, 1 FN. A Baker's Dozen, home cooked to my tastes.
Yes, the Pre-64's as original basic/Grade-I, may seem a little crude, but in some ways they are better than the newer ones.
I would however go for the new SC/FN M70, if I needed another Winchester.
The premium paid on a Pre-64 ain't worth it anymore.
A Pre-64-M70 in .395 H&H:

Fortunately, the new Wiebe BM unit takes care of this for the rest of us stuck with NH guns...

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
reddy375 - I don't have an FN rifle, but have some New Haven classics (CRF). They have all worked just fine for me; however, I do like the pre-64 anti-bind feature better than the newer one.

This was the post I was waiting for! I have a 2001'ish 375 new haven rifle, even my late gunsmith said I got lucky as it was higher than their usual standard. I think it's a great rifle, shoots accurate (for my skill level) and has given me no real problems. I need to have it tuned up some, and maybe it doesn't have the right extractor. That said, my understanding of the important difference is this:

the old anti-bind feature really was, and there were no potential problems due to it's design. The new anti-bind feature allows the bolt (now I'm going from memory here ok, from what a very very skilled mod70 gunsmith explained to me) to get into a position, I believe round in battery, cocked, but handle lifted up slightly, where it will not fire. I think there is even a pretty well known hunting accident in Africa that is attributed to this problem.

Knowing that, if I were going to drop high $$ on a custom (and not order an action from h&w, timan, or go with an old mauser) I would use the pre-64 as my foundation.

Red

One should always close the bolt fully before pulling the trigger.
If it won't go off with the bolt slightly lifted, that is not such a bad thing.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
One should always close the bolt fully before pulling the trigger.

So now you tell me...

That is not a fun way to WINK!

I had to take one shoe off to finish counting my M70s. Updated the total.

How you will smile, if you are lucky, if you don't close the bolt before pulling the trigger:

The ISO 9001:2008 Quality Management System used by FNSC is the very best Quality System devised. It is reviewed by ISO every 5 years and tweaked where necessary. The 2000 version was so good, it was not changed for several reviews, and with the 2008 changes, only providing a little verbage clarity in 15 elements.
It is an impossibility that a previous generation Winchester was made to a superior level. Sure, you may find a nice sample here and there that is very well made, but overall mass production could never be the equal or superior. That is just manufacturing fact in 2011.

P64s can exhibit some of the crudest and/or most innaccurate machining & finish ever seen on an M70.
P64s dont have the modern alloys & consistent quality controlled hardening that the newer M70s have. P64s can be quiet brittle.

This is one of my favorite p64s , only b-cause of the stock. Id be much happier if that handle was attached to a Brno 21.

This P64 may still be functionally reliable, but it would never make it into a custom stock without havng all its rough machine marks removed and all surfaces trued, followed by trip to the heatreaters.




This is the standard to what a modern day receiver can be consistently produced, when one has correct quality control procedures in place and adhered to. McMillan is quite capable of producing an M70/p64 type receiver to such std. using top notch materials,
question is, how many would be prepapred to pay the asking price.
Those who have attempted to make them and eventually failed include; Noreen,WFH,Williams.
An Dakota76 receiver[$2k], still requires work!

Love this thread! I am hoping it can persuade a few pre 64 owners to trade theirs away for a "modern" rifle. Thus allowing me the opportunity to buy a couple more cheap.

Cheers,

Pete A.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete A.:
Love this thread! I am hoping it can persuade a few pre 64 owners to trade theirs away for a "modern" rifle. Thus allowing me the opportunity to buy a couple more cheap.

Cheers,

Pete A.

SHHHH! Don't spill the beans!

I guess that I just got lucky with my 50s era M70 Featherweight in .308. Many years ago, it cost me $80 for it used, installed a M8 4x Leupold and went hunting.
When the handloading bug bit, I "accurized" it as suggested in a NRA publication (Arkansas stone on the trigger and floated the barrel). With handloads it always shot under one MOA until I discovered that Remington factory 150 grain loads did too, so I quit handloading it. Later, Hornady Light magnums shot just as well. I have a few other rifles, but it still nicely fills the gap between my .243 and my .338 Win Mag. Once I had these calibers shooting well, off went the .264 WM, .30-06, and others smaller than big bores.
The old .308 was re blued and refinished about 15 years ago and still puts them where you point it. And it has never malfunctioned, failed to load or eject. I did have to dissasemble and clean the bolt once some years back after hunting in sandy conditions; the safety made a gritty sound when letting it off and that got on my nerves after a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:


AC, thanks, but, my outdoor experience with guns is confined to BC, AB and that is about it. I may go to Saskachewan this fall as I have been invited for some years by a friend, but, BC offers all the wilderness hunting I desire and I have no wish to go elsewhere.

You have many fine rifles and really should move to BC-the West Kootenays and we can be neighbours and shoot together as we share values as to what is "best"....

Is the P-64 "better" than it's heirs? YES, as it came from the factory ready to go, it was and is, IMHO. Is it "better" than what a genius like Darcy Echols can do with a Classic, well, probably not and we must remember that the Pre-64 was conceived and built as a field HUNTING rifle, not a bench or target piece.

MY issue with the nicely finished FN version and I have examined a number of these, is the trigger, plain and simple. It may well BE superior to the original for TARGET shooting, but, it will not deal with BC wet, cold, dust, mud and rough use of rifles like the old one did/does. That, to me, is very important, YMMV.

Dewey - Sure wish I could move back. One of the problems of having spent one's life fixing sick large enterprises and working major projects for both goverenments and industry is that you end up without much of a pension unless you are both very careful and very lucky.

So it is not in the cards if I am to support the child bride in the manner to which she demands to remain accustomed.

If she passes before I do, however, watch out!! I might be your new next door neighbor, knocking on your door, tea kittle and back pack in hand.

(I sure do wish I had never shown her the winter home in Scottsdale right after we first became a coupled pair. To a girl raised in Frozen Butt (Bruderheim) Alberta, the heat, even at 120+ in the summer, just became an incurable addiction.) So I worked us back north as far as the Oregon Cascades over the years, but when she retired last fall from her child psychologist toils, it was back here to the heat, much against my pleas.

As far as I am concerned, anywhere from the Kootenays to the Manitoba border, so long as it isn't in a big city, is pure essence d' paradise.

And I do think you've been there, done that as far as hunting & shooting in the field.

Nobody knows a good field rifle quite as well as they could until they have had one in their hands ass deep in snow on the left side of the Canadian park country, or tromping around where it is -55 or colder in northern Alberta, then hunting 'lopes and stuff in East Metropolitan Dust Pile Saskatchewan out on the Regina Plain when it's 100+. Your years in Alberta and B.C. cover the best parts of that.

I ache for it all, brother, and would be very honoured to sit at your knee some day.

Best wishes to you Johnny Canuck, you lucky, lucky person.

AC

RIP, I sure do like all my model 70 Winchesters!

I don't have a lot of experience with M70's but am fortunate to have two. One is a SS Classic I bought on the For Sales here. Is a .375 H&H and came in an HS Precision stock. I agreed to buy it the day before the closure of New Haven was announced. Price was right at $650. Became obvious that these were going to be valuable for a while so after the announcement I contacted the seller and suggested I'd let him out of the sale as things had changed. He was kind enough to stick with it. And I got a pretty decent basic rifle for Africa that shoots 1 1/4" groups with 300 gr Barnes TXTs at 2600 fps.

The other M70 was a pre-64 custom in .338 Win Mag I picked up at a big gun show. Has a Krieger cut rifled barrel, NECG sights, and sits in a lovely McMillan synthetic stock. At the time it should have been a couple of grand and I bought it at the end of the show on Sunday for a bit over a grand.

Has no collector value. Just a very practical and tasteful rifle. It is the best working rifle I own. Easy to carry and use. Has no first shot offset problem. Holds 2" groups at 300 yards with 225 gr Barnes Xs.

I do love my Mausers ... Peruvians, Argentines, FNs and VZ.24s. That M70 certainly is not an Ottmar masterpiece, but is a great working rifle.