quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
* * *
I don't agree with some of your post.

The 404 was issued by game departments, but primarily to the askiris and not to the actual wardens. Moreover, it was selected because of its lighter recoil rather than because of its effectiveness - not that it is in any way ineffective, but there were and are better choices. Those better choices were DR's back then and many were issued to the wardens, who usually did the killing.

The 404 waned at exactly the same times as the DR Nito Express cartridges, and for the same reason, a lack of ammunition after the original Kynoch stopped producing ammunition for them. If the ammo would have been available the 404 rifles would have been reconditioned or replaced.

And that is why I think the 450NE is the winner if not the 458wm, its use by wardens and by professional ivory hunters. But the number of elephants killed in the culling, by sport hunters and PH and game wardens exclusive of the culling leads me to believe that the 458wm is likely the cartridge used to kill the greatest number of elephants. ***

Can't agree with that speculation. When Jeffery released the .404J cartridge to the trade early on, all manner of Mauser & other rifles were almost immediately chambered for it, which is why rifles in this caliber proliferated so widely through out Africa, whereas Rigby retained his 416 as a proprietary cartridge. And where use in the field of classic African DG cartridges is concerned, it is chronologially indisputable that the 458 WM is, for lack of a better phrase, a johnny-come-lately. That fact, of course, has nothing to do with it's effectiveness. I agree that it's a highly effective DG cartridge.

Yes, for the average African game dept employee the 404J was readily shootable and effective, but the 404J was specifically used for culling elephants & other DG from overpopulation, not to mention for rogue predator control, whether of elephants, man-eating lions, etc. All that killing wasn't tasked only to the warden armed with a DR.

404J rifles were standard issue in Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Kenya, and in parts of what is now the Repub. of So. Africa. (Uganda armed its game-control employees with rifles in 425 WR.)

Moreover, while the PH's DR was certainly in use - and a tan and well-manicured Granger Stewart toting his DR remains the "romantic" image of the PH - the .404 magazine rifle saw wide use as the standard "dangerous game rifle" among the PHs and their clients for elephants, at least until the availability of 404s waned, clients for the safari trade dwindled (late 1940s thru the 1960s), political turmoil started up in various African nations (same time period), and, as you mentioned, sources for 404J ammo became scarce.

On the other hand, I agree with this point:

quote:

But really, who cares! It is incontravertble that, even with circa '60's ammo, the 458wm is a highly effective elephant cartridge.
JPK

The 404s were issued to the white game wardens, and used as a primary caliber by most of them or so I am told by the older PHs I have known, and that seems to be pretty general knowledge among the Africans I know. There were at the time no black game wardens that I'm aware off, I have no idea if the Askiris were armed, but if so they probably also used the 404s, any other calibers were probably personally owned weapons as I understand....The black game warden came later, and inherited the 404s..The blacks took over the out stations with their well cared for arsnals, freshly painted building and out buildings, manacured lawns, lovely homes in the middle of nowwhere..Those beautiful locations and nice arsnals are still there being used by todays game wardens. but the ones I have observed show the buildings lack windows and doors, the lawns are gone, the fences down, the gates gone, the local tribal game wardens live there but live in huts and keep the chickens and whatever in those lovely homes, and the arsnals are now kept in racks on porches are many of those old nice FN 404s etc are there to be seen, but they that are rusted,and the wood is totally white worm eaten and the guns are basically junk no ammo is available but they are issued to the troops, and thats a good thing or the elephants would all be poached to extingtion by now....Most of the blacks have a AK-47 type with a bayonet these days but you will still see a few old FNs in the Selous, and worn and destroyed as they are its hard not to lust after them..

Thats the real world as I saw it both ways..Its todays Africa.

Really Ray? Really?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

It is also possible that the PH had a bad experience or two with old ammo and can't get past that.

465H&H

I think this has been the major reason for the bad reputation the .458 Win Mag has with some people.
The early factory loads were not good at all.

Todays new powders and high quality "premium" bullets have made the .458 Win Mag a much better cartridge than it was.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
The way I treat it is that I load the 458Win with the old 450NE weighted bullets of 480Grn to the classic tried and proven 450NE velocity of around 2150fps and put it to good use.

Excellent advice right there and even more so with the 450gr CEBs and North Forks!

Just be aware that the non lead type flat nose bullets do take up more space and some have problems feeding flawlessly.
For the 458Mag via a M98 I prefer the 480grn Woodleighs.

Loaded to the same pressures, the Lott only gets 70 fps more than the WM.

But the biggest disadvantage of the Lott is the greater likelihood of shortstroking the longer cartridge. A few months ago there was an article in American Hunter about an elephant hunt in Namibia where Scott Olmsted did exactly that.

I would not hunt with a Lott.

Just a comment about the perceived popularity or number of 404's in Africa.

The perception is created that the 404 was prevalent and widely used and distributed in colonial Africa. This is simply not true and based on the actual numbers made cannot be true.

Every game guard certainly did not have the use of let alone own a 404. Nor did the "white" game folks, many used more mundane pieces such as the British 303. The 318 WR for instance was way way more numerous but many needed up with shot out bores due to bad primers.

Further if it were true we would see old 404's pop up all over the show. They simply do not and I venture that the modern gun trade build more new custom 404's than were ever built historically. A genuine old 404 is a rare bird ! Even rarer is a genuine Oberndorf Mauser 404 sans british proofs.

If we look a the serial numbers, ledgers and documented data of the various gunmakers of the time we see finite numbers in terms of caliber and guns available. And this applies to all of the old british guns. The great firms like Rigby, Holland and Holland did not have the capacity to build or Finnish guns in large numbers, their serial numbers bear this out.

Mauser made about 200,000 sporting rifles in all calibers alone, this is a documented and finite number fact. Many if not most of these ended up with the the British trade, in fact for years it was the British trade that kept Mauser from going bankrupt.

The Mauser ledgers show that compared to modern US gun makers trade small numbers were ordered in batches by the more known British gunmakers.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

But the biggest disadvantage of the Lott is the greater likelihood of shortstroking the longer cartridge. A few months ago there was an article in American Hunter about an elephant hunt in Namibia where Scott Olmsted did exactly that.

I would not hunt with a Lott.

... and then one can conclude that 375 HH, 416 Rigby, 505 Gibs, all the big Weatherbys etc etc etc are not something one should hunt with...??? No my friend - its all about getting used to your rifle and practice, practice, practice..... The Lott is an excellent round, no question...

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Just a comment about the perceived popularity or number of 404's in Africa.

The perception is created that the 404 was prevalent and widely used and distributed in colonial Africa. This is simply not true and based on the actual numbers made cannot be true.

Every game guard certainly did not have the use of let alone own a 404. Nor did the "white" game folks, many used more mundane pieces such as the British 303. The 318 WR for instance was way way more numerous but many needed up with shot out bores due to bad primers.

Further if it were true we would see old 404's pop up all over the show. They simply do not and I venture that the modern gun trade build more new custom 404's than were ever built historically. A genuine old 404 is a rare bird ! Even rarer is a genuine Oberndorf Mauser 404 sans british proofs.

If we look a the serial numbers, ledgers and documented data of the various gunmakers of the time we see finite numbers in terms of caliber and guns available. And this applies to all of the old british guns. The great firms like Rigby, Holland and Holland did not have the capacity to build or Finnish guns in large numbers, their serial numbers bear this out.

Mauser made about 200,000 sporting rifles in all calibers alone, this is a documented and finite number fact. Many if not most of these ended up with the the British trade, in fact for years it was the British trade that kept Mauser from going bankrupt.

The Mauser ledgers show that compared to modern US gun makers trade small numbers were ordered in batches by the more known British gunmakers.

If we take note of what some of the early writers have said it seems the 404 was a popular and widely used cartridge. I don't see that today we have any proof or reason to doubt what was written.

Taylor wrote " I can say at once that it is one of the most widely used calibers thruout (sic) the big game hunting world"

It appears he also included India as he later mentions the development of the 300gr load for longer range shooting in India.

Again according to Taylor the game warden of Tanganyika equipped ALL his native game scouts with Vickers 404 magazine RIFLES (note the use he made of the plural).

Other writers noted that other game departments also equipped their game scouts with the 404 rifles. J A Hunter, who didn't make reference to the 404 in terms of him actually using one does however mention in one of his stories that a wounded rhino was dispatched by one of his crew using a 404 rifle found in the hunting wagon, obviously it was carried loaded ready for use when needed.

Nobody was implying that the 404 was overall the exclusive big bore in Africa so we are not necessarily talking of thousands upon thousands of rifles and of course like all tools of the trade many would be sold on and handed down so their use and popularity continued over the years. Taylor also observed that "most gunsmiths, including the Germans, listed rifles of this caliber in their catalogs - which speaks for itself". Quite a valid observation I would have thought for the day, as I have seen mentioned in print today something similar "that judging by the 7mm Rem Magnum topping sales of reloading dies, it is a one of the most popular cartridges", or words to that effect.

I think you would be surprised just how many 404 rifles are around in the world, I would venture to suggest that even here in NZ 404's are not rare and most have found their way here from Africa. Also many of the .423 Mausers (10.75x68) in use in Africa were converted to 404 just as my own original Oberndorf sporter was and finding its way into my possession direct from Africa.

quote:

Taylor also observed that "most gunsmiths, including the Germans, listed rifles of this caliber in their catalogs - which speaks for itself".

It also speaks for the 450NE in DR's and singles, the 450/400's in both DR's and singles, the 375H&H rimless and rimmed in DR's singles and bolt rifles...

JPK

Eagle 27:

Again I can only go by actual numbers ever made.
For every one of the old manufacturers there is a number one serialized and there is a final as most of them shut shop or stopped production at some point or another.

The ledgers bear this out and cross referencing data from the shipping invoices in the Mauser Archives for instance and say the Rigby Ledgers, or the Jeffery ledgers (in the latter case those that survived the war) we see a surprising picture evolve.

Surprising because in hunting literature one gets the impression that some calibers were numerous because of apparent popularity. Also the popular literature takes liberties with regards to events and numbers of animals hunted. Again we can cross reference to dates in time and then factual numbers ledgered at some national archive.

Well popularity does not equate to numerous per se,
not if there is a written record of what was produced by whom and on what date.

I was surprised to see how few rifles Holland and Holland actually produced in a year. It stands to reason if one realizes that it takes many hours to produce a hand built double or a bespoke shotgun.

One can see that for every caliber produced there is a number one and then a number final, "the last one",these off course fetch top dollar when changing ownership, in some we have complete collections of each and every serial number of a caliber produced for example the 500 jeffery or the 600. Even Rigby's 275 which incidentally can be cross referenced by date and batch shipped from Mauser.

Rigby's 416 perhaps only 200 ever made in original form.

Tracking down origins of guns is fun, even for big number manufacturers who mass produced firearms such as Brno. Their model ranges also have a number one and number final the ZG 47 for instance.

As a South African with our now history one gets the impression that the early pre Boer war Boer was a seasoned hunter and shooter, our popular history paints this colourful picture of the ultimate long range precision shooter borne from years of experience hunting.

Well the archives contradict this. Prior to the Boer war this was not the case at all, The Boer and neither guns nor opportunity to be crack marksman.

The government of the time actually had to arrange shooting days and lessons for those signing up for the fight and again when it comes to weapons used we have exact account of numbers of guns imported from Germany. By caliber date and model.

As to the capability of the individual weapons a collector who shoots examples of these guns will soon realize that they are not long range precision pieces not actually have individual long range capability. This again puts into question the accuracy of what can be seen as popular legend.

Just to add to Eagle27's historical point, in my .375H&H folder, where I’ve collected interesting articles over the years about the .375 cartridge or reloading data for it, I came across an old article by Gregor Woods, a South African writer and hunter who authored the book, “Rifles for Africa.” This article appeared in the Jan. 2004 issue of Sports Afield.

In detailing the history of the .375H&H, he notes the “slow start” it got off to after being introduced in 1912, “largely because of the popularity of the 9.3x62 Mauser, … and the .404 [Jeffery], the standard-issue caliber of British colonial game departments, which used budget-priced Mauser and Vickers rifles.”

Noting that Holland’s retention of the .375 as a “proprietary” cartridge for the firm’s expensive rifles held it back from seeing general use until 1924, when Holland released it to the trade, Woods notes that it started to become popular until WWII put “commercial ocean travel and the safari industry on hold.” During the war, “the Mauser factory in Germany had been destroyed, … cutting off the supply of low-cost 9.3 and .404 Mausers.”

Two paragraphs later he states: “In Africa, colonial game departments, farmers, ranchers, and sportsmen needed a replacement for the 9.3 Mauser. The next most-popular all-arounder after the 9.3 was the .404, but after the war rifles and ammo in this caliber quickly became scarce and expensive.”

The .375 H&H soon took over because it “suited the requirements of game departments: it was effective, their rangers and game croppers shot well with it because it didn’t kick, and Winchester rifles and ammo were reasonably cheap and readily available.”

Those were some of Woods'comments on the .404J. He talks more about the .404J in his book too, which I can highly recommend.

But his Sports Afield write-up on the .375 is a fine article in its own right, and he has a lot more to say about that venerable cartridge there.

I propose the actual numbers of gentlemen, military, government official, and PH who needed sporting rifles – single shot, bolt action, or double rifle – for safari purposes on an annual basis did not exceed the availability of sporting rifles in the required/needed calibers.

Do I have statistics to support this proposal? No I do not though I’ve not read where someone was unable to purchase or borrow a rifle of sufficient caliber to accomplish their hunt…

Does anyone know the actual number of gentleman hunters who traveled to Africa on an annual basis in the early 20th century for Safari? How about the actual number of African professional hunters on an annual basis during the same timeframe?

And yes I’m aware that many individuals used smaller medium caliber cartridges for hunting DG. Some very successfully while others not so successful (hunter killed). At least this is what I’ve read…

From Truesdell's The Rifle it's development for big game hunting:

A review of the writings and published accounts of 170 well known Big game hunters, these include the names of likely the world most famous of big game hunters.

From 1906 to 1946 :
Users of the 404 jeffery caliber in magazine rifle: 3 only ! this is a revelation ! compared to the 450 Double 30 in total, The 303 in magazine rifle 27, the 30-06 30, the 6.5 Mannlicher, This includes the various formats known by the Brits as the 256 Mannlicher. Initially the rimmed versions and later the little 6.5x54 version The most numerous in the 256 was the rimmed version : total = 36.

The 9.3 x62 only 3. Rigby's 416 only 6.

This is contra the modern internet perception of what was once popular in Africa. It does however correlate well with the availability of various calibers by specific maker as shown by their ledger entries.

Colonial africa always had gun regulations, it was part of the fabric of civilized society. The civil services of all the great powers of the time lived mired in paper ! and each and every dealer importer and agency kept ledgers with the serial number entries of guns. This included the inventories of the game departments, many of those can still be found in dusty archives.

quote:

This is contra the modern internet perception of what was once popular in Africa. It does however correlate well with the availability of various calibers by specific maker as shown by their ledger entries.

Not necessarily. African import records and ledgers were hardly models of bureaucratic efficiency. They might well record some rifles but do not account for all rifles of a particular caliber in use over the decades. Taylor, writing from personal observation in the pre-internet days of (circa) 1945, accounts for more than 3 .404J rifles then in use, and that cartridge had been killing African dangerous game since 1905.

And why rely for a credible number on a source that cites only "170 well-known big game hunters"?

That would ignore the armory records of all the British colonial, Rhodesian, and other African game departments in the countries previously cited (i.e., Tanznia, Zambia, RSA, et. al).

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

This is contra the modern internet perception of what was once popular in Africa. It does however correlate well with the availability of various calibers by specific maker as shown by their ledger entries.

Not necessarily. African import records and ledgers were hardly models of bureaucratic efficiency. They might well record some rifles but do not account for all rifles of a particular caliber in use over the decades.

Taylor, writing from personal observation in the pre-internet days of (circa) 1945, accounts for more than 3 .404J rifles then in use, and that cartridge had been killing African dangerous game since 1905.

And why rely for a credible number on a source that cites only "170 well-known big game hunters"?

That would ignore the armory records of all the British colonial, Rhodesian, and other African game departments in the countries previously cited (i.e., Tanznia, Zambia, RSA, et. al).

So which way do you want to have it, observations (Taylor's and the author of the book Alf sites) or the records you find were "hardly models of bureaucratic efficiency?"

You discount records one the one hand while touting anecdotal accounts and then turn around and promote records and discount anecdotal accounts on the other!

Can't have it both ways.

FWIW, I would suggest that the records of the English makers, Mauser and the English colonies are reliable. Non English colonies and recollections less so.

JPK

It's not "having it both ways," chief.

Taylor was reporting his first-hand observations of rifles used in the field (his own and those he witnessed), whereas Truesdell didn't personally observe anything; he was relying for his book on second-hand records - and a partial sampling at that.

Beyond that, just the assertion, based on Truesdell's book, that only 3 .404J rifles were ever used in Africa lacks, shall we say, inherent credibility.

I would be good to remember that Truesdale personally knew few of the hunters that he wrote about. His data is biased toward foreign hunters that also wrote books about their hunts. Obviously, these hunters had more money than the local farmers or black assistant game wardens that used issued department rifles often of 404 caliber. The regular white game wardens were more likely to use personal rifles of a larger caliber as were the foreign visiting hunters.

Probably, the 9.3 X 62 was the most popular DG caliber used overall but it could have been the 8MM Mauser or 303 Brit.

465H&H

Another issue needing factoring into use are these rifles, SB, DB, and bolt, that were loaned & borrowed for Safari purposes aside from the ones sold amongst the PHs and others – basically the issue of a single rifle/single caliber being used by multiple individuals for DG hunting, only counting it once doesn’t tell the whole story…

And aside from the 9.3x62, 8mm Mauser or 303 Brit, don't forget other metric cartridges such as the 9.5x54, the 7mm Mauser and the multitude of 6.5 caliber cartridges that came into play from the European immigrants as well as used by certain PHs. And lest we forget, Mauser was not the only manufacturer in play for military and civilian rifles.

Although I get plenty out of my .458, it wasn't without some playing around on the reloading bench. Some loads were compressed to the point of pushing the bullets back out after some time. A bit of experimenting with neck tension and converting Norma .300 Win mag brass made some progress in this area.The bit of chronographing I did with factory loads was dismal.

It does beg the question of whether a cartridge is what it is, or if it is what it can be made into.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
Although I get plenty out of my .458, it wasn't without some playing around on the reloading bench. Some loads were compressed to the point of pushing the bullets back out after some time. A bit of experimenting with neck tension and converting Norma .300 Win mag brass made some progress in this area.The bit of chronographing I did with factory loads was dismal.

It does beg the question of whether a cartridge is what it is, or if it is what it can be made into.

Your experience is different than mine - except for the very short period of time I started down the IMR 3031 blind alley (but even those relatively slow loads were suitable for elephants.)

Hornaday's manual gives all of the info ever needed, and you could skip all other powders and stick with AA 2230 and live happily ever after.

I like Norma 458wm brass, fwiw.

JPK

I won't argue with A2230, it is the best I've tried.If it was always that simple, there wouldn't be any issue. You could call what I'm getting .458 Plus p to steal a term from the handgunners.

What I'm saying is that much of the world A2230 isn't something that they've even heard of. It was tough enough to get it here. If you take an African who is trying to keep his rifle running with whatever Som-Chem has its going to be tougher. I can see where a bigger case would be opening up his options. Another example is closer to my own heart. I'm in the situation of developing loads in Canada to load and use in Australia. I'm not completely restricted to ADI powders there, but might as well be. There's some options there but a Lott chamber wouldn't be balancing so close between getting the speed and fitting in the case. Even at that there's 150 fps that I have to give up by losing my A2230 option. Then theres the guys that don't hand-load.We enthusiasts tend to forget about them, but some of the tailormade ammo is sluggish.

I don't own a Lott, but can see where it could be an easier way to get the same results.Or a bit more.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I won't argue with A2230, it is the best I've tried.If it was always that simple, there wouldn't be any issue. You could call what I'm getting .458 Plus p to steal a term from the handgunners.

What I'm saying is that much of the world A2230 isn't something that they've even heard of. It was tough enough to get it here. If you take an African who is trying to keep his rifle running with whatever Som-Chem has its going to be tougher. I can see where a bigger case would be opening up his options. Another example is closer to my own heart. I'm in the situation of developing loads in Canada to load and use in Australia. I'm not completely restricted to ADI powders there, but might as well be. There's some options there but a Lott chamber wouldn't be balancing so close between getting the speed and fitting in the case. Even at that there's 150 fps that I have to give up by losing my A2230 option. Then theres the guys that don't hand-load.We enthusiasts tend to forget about them, but some of the tailormade ammo is sluggish.

I don't own a Lott, but can see where it could be an easier way to get the same results.Or a bit more.

Here are two ADI powders that work well in the 458wm (Conversion taken from here: http://bulletin.accurateshoote...r-adi-product-codes/ )

AR2206H = H4895
AR2208 = Varget

I have used H4895 and got good results though in my rifle I started seeing inconsistencies at about 2100fps with Woodleigh 500gr solids. No pressure signs or anything, just velocity stopped increasing appropriately well below Hornaday's max recommended load. It worked very well with NF 450gr FN solids, as well as AA 2230 for the 450's.

I have Varget to try, but I have never gotten around to it, instead I just keep going back to AA 2230.

Another way to get the most out of the 458wm is to use 480gr Woodleighs with a 458wm cannelure. They can be found here in the US and OzHunter uses them in his 458wm, and you can guess where he is from.

While the evidence is overwhelming that the 458wm has always provided more than adequate performance - the strongest evidence being the tremendous number of elephants culled with factory ammo circa 60's in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe for tse tse fly control - except for the brief period where the factory ammo was mis-loaded, It is pretty clear that Winchester would have done better with the full length 375 H&H case.

According to the guys who reload ammo in Zim, they have SomChem powders that push 500's to 2100fps. (Or maybe they're using the 458wm cannelured 480's? Still plenty sufficient.)

JPK

I have used H4895 in the past, and it is one of the powders I'll be using on cull this year out of necessity. I shot 10 buffalo using that powder and 450 grain A-Frame combo. It produced a tiny bit over 2200 fps with literally all the powder I could cram into the case. While that certainly isn't anything to sneeze at, the same bullet will get 2350 with a stiff load of A 2230. Since its there to be had, I want it. I believe that I can see a difference in impact, but even if I was wrong on that there is a difference in expanded diameter that can be measured and proven.

For the record, I can get 2200 fps out of the 500 Gr Partition with a full load of A2230. I believe that I can do that and more easier and with several different powders with a Lott chamber. Not that I have a Lott, just a .458 Win and reamer plus likely too much curiousity.

i Load 500gr Woodleigh solids to 2135fps with AA 2230 and 450gr NF FN solids to 2220 with AA 2230 and see more than adequate performance om cape buffalo and elephants too.

with H 4895 I loaded the 450's to the same velocity.

My 458wm is a double rifle and I need to load to regulation, not for absolute velocity.

Recall that the 450NE 3 1/4" is the cartridge against which all other DG cartridges are measure. nnominal ballistics are 2150fps with a 480gr bullet, but out of a 28" barrel. Actual field velocities were lower, those 450 NE owners I polled saw an average of about 2100fps. A 458wm shooting 500grs at 2100fps provides more performance than the epitome of DG cartridges. No more is required.

Fwiw, all of the buff I have shot have been shot with solids. They die quickly when hit well.

JPK

You should try some softs. I won't even put solids in the magazine anymore.

The PH wanted softs for the first two, for the others they have been killed while elephant hunting.

I won't put a soft in the belt when elephant hunting (after once finishing a long walk to look at an elephant that wasn't the right elephant and then unloading at the truck to discover that I had somehow grabbed a soft from the belt in lieu of a solid.)

As fast as a couple of well placed solids kill a buff I can have no complaints, though someday I would like to use a soft on a buff.

JPK

JPK

Alf,
Being a fan of the 404 for years and reading everything I could on it, and talking to the PHs I know, I have been led to believe that the 404 was prevelent in some of Africa..

Harold Wolfe has talked of many ocassions of racks of 404s in what is now Tanzanias outback stations, and he used them a good deal, and tell about this in his magazine. Harold furthermore repaired a number of these rifles for the gov. at the time....

PHs have told me the 404 were well respected and used a good deal along with the 303 for lighter stuff..Finn Aagard talked of this and told me the 404 was used by Kenyan officials as did George Hoffman..

Some years ago I tried to make a deal to purchase quite a number of stored rifles, some 404s and some high dollar sporting rifles, double rifles and what have you that were obviously confiscated by the Mozambique gov. at some point in time. They were in terribly rusted conditon from being stored for many years, The 404 were mostly FNs, the type that were issured to the game depts..A PH tried to broker that deal and wanted me to make all the arrangments to import them into the USA, but he didn't get it done.

What I am sure of is that the FN mod. 98 in 404 caliber is still in unknown numbers in the Tanzania gov.. I have personally seen a number of game scouts in Tanzania, mostly in the Selous that carried them on our hunts, and they usually had only one or two rounds of ammo or none at all. others had Ak-47s with bayonets and little or no ammo.

I have tried to buy every one of those wonderful worm eaten 404s that I saw but to no avail!! They were apparantly afraid to sell them! I have had to intervene with hunters, with good intentions, attempting to give their extra 404 ammo to the Game Scouts as a tip. Explainging to them to never do this as they would be poaching elephant with them during the off season and selling the Ivory to the illegal trade....

I know this is somewhat contridictory to your post, and I wouldn't swear to its validity as its mostly what I have been led to believe, other than their are some 404 still in use in tanzania..I wasn't around back then, and I have never until now had any reason to be doubtful....

I think the 480 gr. 458 win. load at 2150 or whatever FPS cures any ills the .458 Win. may or many not have had, depending on who you talk to. It lessons the compaction problem and the velocity and bullet weight are positive..