quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
You have to take into account that .458 owners seem to take this discussion to heart, many over react to someones opinnion. Both sides of this equasition can be at fault and over reactive IMO...

I am not a 458 Win. fan simply because I can punch a .458 out to a .458 lott in a half hour, and btw I load the Lott to the original sought after .458 Win. specs, a 500 gr. bullet at 2200 FPS, but with very low pressure with the Lott and I can still shoot .458 Win. ammo in it...That seems to anger some and pass right over the heads of others..

It doesn't pass over my or anyone else's head. I (and a lot of other people) just don't see the need to Lott it. I just load the bullet out further, get the same velocity and same low pressure.

Contrary to what some have accused me of, simply because they cannot read or insist on arguement I have ALWAYS said, I would be perfectly content if I were forced to use a .458 Win but only if I were allowed to handload it, and I would prefer a 26 inch barrel on any borderline cartridge, even the 9.3x62 performs wonders with a long tube.

The .458 Win has proven itself with good handloads in all the DG fields worldwide with handloads. but like it or not, it has a capacity problem, and it takes compaction to get it to allowable velocity in African heat. Anybody with an iota of intelligence knows that, but it can be delt with through proper handloading..

I consider myself someone who has one iota of intelligence and I even listed for you 2 loads that are starting loads that are not compressed and deliver the same ballistics as the rounds that culled 20,000 ele.


I believe todays factory loads are borderline but certainly acceptable on all but elephant, however I would not be real comfortable with factory ammo, but I would preceed with care if that is all I had to shoot with....

That is your opinion and you are more than welcome to express it..

I also believe my approach is just good common since..but I would never declare the .458 and unfit caliber, just that there is a better option..

Once again that's your opinion and your free to express and share it..

Bottomline, its a grand caliber in the hands of the properly initiated and experienced hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Thanks for this post. I agree that the .458 WM is more than adequate for dangerous game. I have a Lott, and a .416 is my go to, but a .458 WM should be good. However, some people disagree; including the PH on my next hunt.

I recently acquired a Mannlicher Schoenauer in .458, which I was delighted to obtain, but some people feel it is inadequate. I would NEVER rechamber this rifle. I have all sorts of alternatives, but it would have been nice -- and probably will again some day -- to have hunted with that classic rifle.

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quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Thanks for this post. I agree that the .458 WM is more than adequate for dangerous game. I have a Lott, and a .416 is my go to, but a .458 WM should be good. However, some people disagree; including the PH on my next hunt.

I recently acquired a Mannlicher Schoenauer in .458, which I was delighted to obtain, but some people feel it is inadequate. I would NEVER rechamber this rifle. I have all sorts of alternatives, but it would have been nice -- and probably will again some day -- to have hunted with that classic rifle.

IIRC, Richard Harland used a MS, and I know it was in 458wm, to kill about 10,000 elephants personally.

If your PH thinks the 458wm is insufficient for elephants he has little or no elephant experience or is otherwise unqualified or maybe just incredibly uninformed

I get pass throughs on broadside shots on bulls for example.

JPK

quote:

It is also possible that the PH had a bad experience or two with old ammo and can't get past that.

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
Melvin, good post, mate. Bloody good cartridge that really hurts big buffalo. And other monsters. In fact, I am about to cook another buffalo curry from a big old bull killed by my M70 .458WM, which I sadly had to sell to finance a smaller calibre rifle. I would definitely buy another and use it with pride and confidence if the right rifle came-up down-the-track. I always used the 500 grain bullets, both softs and solids.

Something to keep in mind: A man should never have to justify a hobby (or a rifle or a cartridge). If it works, it works. Just because some bloody data quite correctly points out that another this-or-that produces better numbers is no reason to not go for something older and proven if that is what you dig.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
With todays powders, and the incredible # of premium and superior bullet tech we have today, 458 Winchester rises to the top of the heap in my opinion. The need for 458 Lott is no longer..... Case capacity of the 458 Winchester is especially conducive to 450 gr bullets for elephant, buffalo, hippo....... The CEB #13s and North Forks take care of this with ease. Recently I did a pressure study with 458 Winchester and nothing but the various CEB and North Fork offerings. NOTE my velocity is 18 ft in front of the muzzle, and it was no issue to get to a tad over 2300 fps in 24 inches of barrel and stay under at at max pressures....... More than enough to accomplish any mission with these bullets from CEB and North Fork.

Also in the last 18 months or so we have been working with the 250 gr Raptor from CEB. Last year I used one of my 18 inch 458 B&Ms, very comparable to the 458 Winchester in case capacity. Running a 450 #13 Solid at 2225 fps, 420 #13 Raptor at 2300 fps, and a 250 Socom at 2900 fps, all these bullets had the same POI at 50 yards. I was able to take anything from Impala to elephant and did so. I shot 14-15 plains game, impala to zebra with the 250 Socom, oryx, zebra, wildebeest dropped to the shot, many of these passing completely through doing tremendous amounts of damage. Without doing a thing with the sights, off to Zimbabwe where I shot buffalo, hippo, crocodile and a very good bull elephant, all with that same 458 B&M, just pick and choose the right bullet for the mission at hand......

The 458 Winchester is absolutely capable of doing exactly the same thing. So what is not to like? And even more, what more is required? To believe otherwise is to be "uneducated"..................

M

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Hope I can manage an Elephant hunt and use these rifles and import the trophies someday the US gov't just hosed my plans in Zimbabwe

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quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
...
The 458 Winchester is absolutely capable of doing exactly the same thing. So what is not to like? And even more, what more is required? ...

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Hope I can manage an Elephant hunt and use these rifles and import the trophies someday the US gov't just hosed my plans in Zimbabwe

The greatest trophy you will earn from an elephant hunt is the memory. So go anyway.

I have four sets of ivory in my trophy room. Once in a while I focus on them, or on one pair. But I've killed eighteen elephants and the memories of those hunts are all equally vivid and significant, even if there is no evidence in my trophy room. So go anyway!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
JPK,
Well thanks for not allowing me to change my mind on such a subject that went back quit some time ago, but guess what, I have changed my mind many times on guns and calibers over the years....I suppose some like yourself may not be openned minded enough to do this, but its worth a try...

BTW, didn't I give you a cap on your return trip from tanzania some years back..As I recall you shot quit a large buffalo on that trip or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

Are you sure there is no advantage to having the lower pressure of the Lott and still being able to shoot std. .458s? I think that is a perfectly good idea, and on that I probably won't change my mind.

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quote:

Originally posted by badboymelvin:
Why I no longer defend the .458 Winchester Magnum.

For more years than I can remember I have been an staunch fan of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Having owned 2 rifles chambered for the .458WM at least I can speak from experience (even of it is somewhat limited) about the round.
I have not been able to fault either rifle and I have never experienced any problems when reloading the .458.
Despite all the positive experiences I've had with the .458 Winchester Magnum I can now no longer defend it.
Why not?
Because there's no point. People either don't listen - or they've already made up their mind about the .458 Winchester. I end up just getting frustrated, so now I'm just not going to bother. Instead of arguing about the .458 Winchester magnum I'm going to go out with mine and shoot big animals with it.
"Its poorly designed"
"It was all there was at the time"
"Lacks penetration"
"Too slow"
"Not powerful enough"
"Not enough case capacity"
"Caked powder and poor bullets"
"At least in a magnum length action it can be converted to the Lott"

Heard 'em all and to be honest I just get sick of it... and I it don't agree with any of the above.
I have no shares or stakes in Winchester. I had no part in the design of the .458. I didn't invent the round, so if people choose to use or not use it, it's of no consequence to me. My feelings aren't gonna get hurt, BUT, what does get me upset is when someone buys a perfectly good rifle and then converts to the Lott - usually without even firing the rifle first! Or because of horror stories they've heard about ammo that was manufactured decades ago!! That's like me saying "yeah, I drove a Chrysler 50 years ago and because of a bad experience I'll never drive one again!!" Gimme a break..
I'll be honest and say that I just don't get that kind of reasoning.
How many people buy a .30-06 for deer/ elk and then without firing it get it converted to the Ackley? Or buy a .300 Win Mag and then get it converted to .300 Weatherby? Not to many that I've met.
Now don't get me wrong, if someone wants a Ackley, or a Weatherby, or a Lott then that's all cool and groovy, good luck with your rifle and I'm sure that it'll serve you well.
BUT, if someone buys one because they feel that the original cartridges aren't up to the task - because they were told (or read something online) by an 'expert' that says they're not, that really gets me going.
I think my favourite one is in regards to the caked powder/ squib loads that the .458 is famous for. To say this didn't happen is a lie. It did and I don't doubt that it got many a person in serious trouble... or worse. The most common cause I hear for this is because of 'compressed ball powder' that glues together under the African heat and doesn't ignite properly.
The funny thing is that according to Winchester the original rounds WERE NOT loaded with ball powder! Winchester only changed to ball powder in the .458 some time in the late ‘70s or early ‘80s. Before then, the .458 was loaded with a cylindrical, short-grain double-base powder.
A gentleman by the name of Georg Grohmann also wrote about this in detail. He wrote a great article while working up loads for his .458 and quoting;
"But contrary to popular belief in certain quarters, old (1970s) Winchester ammo was not loaded with ball powder, but with a small-log, cylindrical, double base powder. None of the cartridges I had for testing contained compressed powder, neither was it caked. It was, however, cemented by chemical action. There were also undersize bullets. The end results were, in some cases, disastrous. Not only were velocities much reduced (as low as 1856 fps in my tests) but there were both hang fires and misfires! But it was NOT ball powder, neither was it compressed! There was about 1 mm of space between powder and bullet in the solid loads and about 2 mm in the softpoint loads. It was a short-grain, cylindrical, extruded double-base powder, resembling IMR 4320 in shape and size. (IMR powders are single-base, of course)."

Not good, not good at all, but also not due to caked ball powder. He goes on to further write;

"As for ball powder ‘caking’ in compressed loads, this is another very persistent story. All I can say here is that I have been loading Win/Olin 748 ball powder in my .458 since October 1974. In unfired cases, my standard load is slightly compressed, yet I have never had a problem. In 2002, in order to check up on this, I disassembled some .458/748 loads, which I had put together in 1982! There was a little clumping of the powder, but no more than in cartridges I checked six months after loading. These rounds were re-assembled and then chronographed together with some cartridges, which had not been disturbed. Average MV was 2060 fps, exactly the same as what I got in 1982, when I checked some of the same batch of reloads."

So why then the bad performance of the .458 years and years ago? Well let's see, there's the stick powder having a chemical reaction and clumping together - even though it wasn't compressed, the original 'solids' blowing apart and being undersized and the production line spilling powder from the shells before the bullet was seated.
These problems have been fixed (decades ago!!) and it's a testament to the round's reliable performance on game that it's still so popular.

What about the stories I hear about the .458 being not powerful enough for elephant? Well, I've never shot an elephant and unless I win the lottery I probably never will. But I do own a chronograph. And I know that a 500gr bullet at between 2050 - 2200 fps will kill any elephant under any condition. I know this because even though I've never shot an elephant, Grobler, Harland, Aagaard, Duckworth and Thomson have. Around 20,000 actually and all with the 458wm.
And I also know that today, it's no problem to drive a 500gr bullet at these speeds, without super compressing (not that I think compressed loads are bad) or without sky high pressure. In fact the ADI loading manual lists the following STARTING loads for the .458 with the 500gr bullet, 70grs of AR2208 (Varget) for 2050fps and 70grs of AR 2206H (H4895) for 2070fps. These starting loads are as powerful as the factory ammo that culled 20,000 elephants, yet are not compressed and are very mild pressure wise. The .458 would probably be the most popular big bore here in Australia for hunting water buffalo and the such, and I'll tell you, in summertime up the Northern Territory, it gets as hot up there as anywhere in Africa. The loads that are listed in Australian manuals with Aussie ADI powders show that speeds up to 2205fps are possible (74grs AR2206H) without excess pressure and the N.T is where they are field tested.
I don't think that 2050 - 2200fps is to slow for anything that a .458 would be used on. It compares very favourably to the .470 Nitro and would probably surpasses it if the .470 was chronographed in the more realistic 24- 26" barrel instead of the usual 28" the .470 is credited with. Even if the .470 was 50fps or so quicker than the .458 the .458 has a higher S.D when both are fired with 500gr bullets. So on game they would be pretty much identical... except that the .458 can do it in a standard action - not a magnum. This is why I think that the .458 Winchester Magnum ISN'T a poorly designed round. Nitro performance out of a .30-06 sized action.

But what if you do have a .458 in a Magnum sized action like I do with my CZ550 Safari Magnum? Well according to the experts it simply makes sense to convert it to the Lott and it's a pretty cheap conversion. Well not getting it done is cheaper! One can load to an OAL of 3.8 in the CZ and all you need is a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They're about $15-20! The load that was recommended to me for my CZ taking advantage of the longer action was the 550gr Woodleigh and 74grs of AR2206. This load gives 2100 fps and over 5300 ft/lbs of energy. In what situation would this be lacking for dangerous game?
So before converting it to the Lott, why not just seat the bullets out deeper in the .458 Winchester and see how you go? Brass and components are cheaper and factory ammo is a lot more common. (I know that WM ammo can be used in the Lott but if you're gonna factory ammo just use the WM as is. And remember that factory ammo culled those 20,000 ele's.)

So this is why I no longer defend about the .458 Winchester Magnum.
I don't need to.
It has killed more dangerous game than any other cartridge and is now beyond criticism. People like Don Heath and Craig Boddington, who previously, were very outspoken about their dislike of the .458 have now called a truce with it. Why? Because there is nothing to criticise.. and there hasn't been for some time. Don Heath states that today there is nothing wrong with the .458 and Craig Boddington credits the .458 "as the gun that saved Africa". But I think that Craig sums up the .458 nicely with the following post;
"Even though (years ago) Winchester boldly dropped the .458 Winchester Magnum, it needs to stay. It is still the least expensive option for a true big bore, and despite the current popularity of .458-bashing, it is absolutely adequate for the world’s largest game."

And I couldn't agree more.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

and .450 Rigby/Dakota solved the WinMag anemia by traveling 100 to 150 fps faster

Opus, we can agree that the 450 Nitro and 458 WinMag are great cartridges.
But we don't need to take away from the Rigby/Dakota/Weatherby of the same diameter.


Those rounds do about 500 fps faster velocity than the Winnie and NE, which makes them suitable as 'all-around' cartridges for non-dangerous game out to 300 and even 400 yards. (The 460 Weatherby used to be advertised at 2700fps with a 500 grain bullet, though 2600fps is probably a more realistic max.) For comfort, a 450 grain bullet at 2600fps could be used. Maybe there will be a tipped, higher BC version one of these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Well some of the original factory ammo for it was kind of crummy. The bad rap continues even after the reason for it was corrected.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Very true. Lott and Watts solved a problem in "their day". Today, they would be hard pressed to convince anyone to trash their .458WM in favor of their cartridge...

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:
Very true. Lott and Watts solved a problem in "their day". Today, they would be hard pressed to convince anyone to trash their .458WM in favor of their cartridge...

I don't know about this either. I see a good deal more 458 Lotts in the market than 458 Win Mags.

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quote:

Originally posted by luvtoreload:
Actually the 375 H&H has killed more than the rest combined. That is a fact. A great round that kills beter than it should.

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quote:

In addition, if the 458wm isn't the winner, it has to be either the 450NE or the 404, both commonly issued to game wardens.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

In addition, if the 458wm isn't the winner, it has to be either the 450NE or the 404, both commonly issued to game wardens.

I made that point about the .404 Jeffery back on page 1, but amidst all the chest pounding that hard statistic got ignored.

The .404J has been killing African game since 1905. It was considered THE elephant rifle by PHs for decades and was the official rifle cartridge for the game-control depts of at least 5 or 6 African countries. It wasn't really until the early 1950s that use of the .404J began to wane (less new .404J rifles were being built and most of those gov't-owned game dept rifles had reached the end of their useful service life), which is when the 458 Win Mag arrived.

That said, there's nothing wrong with the .458WM using loads made with current powders & bullets, whether factory ammo or handloads.

And that fact means the 458 Lott is now superflous (except to collectors or as an always-interesting range toy), since it was intended to remedy a 458 ammunition-problem that no longer exists.

quote:

I were shooting a 458 WM with factory ammo, I'd be shoot Hornaday.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

I were shooting a 458 WM with factory ammo, I'd be shoot Hornaday.

Using Hornady .450 NE DGX factory ammo on a buffalo bull cured any desire I had to ever use it again.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
My PH definatly knows what he is talking about. And, the Lott is definitaly an improvement. So I'll follow his advice and use the .458 on other stuff. It should be hell on Texas whitetails.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by luvtoreload:
Actually the 375 H&H has killed more than the rest combined. That is a fact. A great round that kills beter than it should.

With all of the tse tse fly culling done in Zim, I can't believe that any other cartridge has accounted for more elephants. Just four guys I am familiar with killed well over 20,000 elephants.

In addition, if the 458wm isn't the winner, it has to be either the 450NE or the 404, both commonly issued to game wardens. Recall the 375H&H wasn't ever legal in Kenya and legal in TZ only relatively recently.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

In addition, if the 458wm isn't the winner, it has to be either the 450NE or the 404, both commonly issued to game wardens.

I made that point about the .404 Jeffery back on page 1, but amidst all the chest pounding that hard statistic got ignored.

The .404J has been killing African game since 1905. It was considered THE elephant rifle by PHs for decades and was the official rifle cartridge for the game-control depts of at least 5 or 6 African countries. It wasn't really until the early 1950s that use of the .404J began to wane (less new .404J rifles were being built and most of those gov't-owned game dept rifles had reached the end of their useful service life), which is when the 458 Win Mag arrived.

That said, there's nothing wrong with the .458WM using loads made with current powders & bullets, whether factory ammo or handloads.

And that fact means the 458 Lott is now superflous (except to collectors or as an always-interesting range toy), since it was intended to remedy a 458 ammunition-problem that no longer exists.

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