I have a .416 Rigby in a Dakota 76 African.

I was at the range today and sighted in dead on at 100 yards to prepare for a hunt in Tanzania.

With the rifle dead on at 100 yards I started to shoot offhand at 50 yards with a sling, and noticed all of my shots striking approximately 5 inches low. I went back to the bench at 100...dead on.

So then I went to some sticks at 50 yards...dead on, maybe 1/2 inch high, but mostly dead on.

Any speculation as to what is going on?

Absolutely! You shoot on a bench with pressure up on the forend due to the bags. When you were standing, the sling brought some down pressure on the forend. When you went back to the bench, then to the sticks, voila! Up pressure again!

Tighten your action screws... is it full length bedded?

are you pulling on the sling off hand?

(for testinf)if you can, off hand, lean your offside shoulder against a tree or have a friend stand there... and see if your groups improve...

and, just asking, (because most people dont) .. do you shoot off hand much?
jeffe

Sounds to me like your pulling too hard on the sling and possible developing a little flinch when shooting offhand. I had the same thing happen when I first got my 375. Whichever position you are shooting keep the foreend grip relatively constant.
Shooting faster off-hand may also help as the left arm will get tired if you spend too much time waiting for the perfect sight picture.
Just practice lots and lots.

Regards

mark

Front sling attached to barrel band may also be a factor.

Rather attach front sling point on stock itself.

Have a friend SAFELY hand you the rifle in such a manner that you don't know whether or not there is a live round in the chamber..( I'll leave it to you to work out the details as to the best, safest way to manage that where you are shooting...) Now try a few offhand rounds @ 50yds. or so and see how you do. If all the mechaical issues already mentioned re: your rifle are found to be correct....it sounds like a classic flinch.

Hello TJR,
Shooting off hand with a rifle will most likely give you different POI than shooting off a bench. Most people are not that experienced at off hand shooting, hence the many "sticks" you see being used instead of a sling. You have changed the range/distance from 100 to 50 yards, but would not think it would make that much diference, but not familiar with the 416 Rigby and you would know more about the trajectory issue??? If you plan on using the rilfe w/ support, sticks, might try and zero accordingly, but doubt that you will be using such a caliber for aimed, long range plains game shooting, but point being would zero the rifle how you plan on using the rifle. Hard to imagine you placing that much pressure on the barrel from sling unless you are really pulling down and trying to control the recoil??
I know that it is "trendy, classic, etc." for the front sling swivel to be barrel mounted, but shudder when I see that on any rifle for it does not bode well for accuracy. Supposed to keep forward hand from recoil damage??? In the first place, you do not want your arm/hand extended that far forward in shooting off hand but rather aiding in supporting the rifle in a steady position w/ elbow on hip and gun pulled back into shoulder. Shotgunners use the forward arm/hand to aid in lead of the swing of the gun, but not rifle shooters. Anyway, have you dry fired the rifle?? Practiced calling your shots?? Might suggest you go to the range and dry fire some 4-5 times at a target and honestly note on paper where on target you believe that shot would have gone. Shoot one live round for every 4-5 dry fires. Does wonders on control, saves a bunch on ammo costs, shoulder costs!!, and improves ability to hit target a great deal. Most off hand shooters have a horizontal figure eight movement of the barrel/sight and attempt to "break the shot" as the swing of the muzzle is into the black/target area. If you break the shot with the swing going opposite you can guess the result. Might also point out that stock weld, head placement, percieved sight picture, etc. is super critical and from bench vs off hand, may well be an area to check. If need be, place a small piece of tape, etc. where you want your cheek to go each time and w/ practice you will repeat that and have the same sight picture. Even with a scope this can change your POI. Off hand shooting is scary to a lot of people, but with practice, you will prefer shooting that way over all others for it is simply easier. Many skilled match shooters will sight in their rifle off hand and won't be more than a couple clicks off. As they say, "favor center!!"

Quit pulling the sling so tightly when you shot offhand & watch your group improve.

Look at your trigger pull. One holds a rifle a little differently off hand and, depending on the match of your hand too the rifle, you may be pulling your shots down with your trigger pull off hand. This is something I have had to work to overcome. Pulling down slightly on the trigger relative to your shooting on the bench can easily drop your shots five or six inches at 50 yards- it did for me. I work with snap caps frequently off hand to keep this tendency in check.

Do you hold the forend with the same firmness off the bench as you do off hand?

Try shooting without the sling. It's faster and there isn't much difference at 50 yards with practice.

In my offhand shooting out to 100 yards, I haven't noticed that the sling on the stock verses on the barrel band makes much of a difference.

Paul

I agree w/ driver above. You will have a different cheek/stock weld, different head angle and your mass behind the rifle will be different between bench and off-hand positions. Those factors alone will give you different zeros. I've seen zeros for prone closely match those of bench but rarely do they match off-hand.

When you take the above and add shooting a heavy recoiling rifle off a solid position/rest on a seated bench then shoot w/ a sling off-hand, this amplifies the differences in POI.

You will generally have a difference in POI to some degree when shooting from different positions. I'd suggest saving the traditional bench for testing rifle accuracy alone. Use the most stable position you can that is closer to your actual shooting position for zeros. Zeros from a standing bench or tall tripod while holding the rifle correctly will generally give you zeros closer to those shooting off-hand.

G

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
Sounds to me like your pulling too hard on the sling and possible developing a little flinch when shooting offhand. I had the same thing happen when I first got my 375. Whichever position you are shooting keep the foreend grip relatively constant.
Shooting faster off-hand may also help as the left arm will get tired if you spend too much time waiting for the perfect sight picture.
Just practice lots and lots.

Regards

mark

Agreed. Whenever I zero a rifle for hunting, even if shooting over a sandbag, I place my left hand under the forend at the spot where I grip it when shooting offhand, kneeling, or sitting, and place the back of my hand on the sandbag.

This method seems to place about the same amount of upward pressure on the forend, and the zero stays the same in all positions. I find this practice particularly necessary when using the Ruger No. 1's.

Hi TJR,
Two things come to mind for me. One is eliminate the sling the other is to try to keep aiming through the shot. This will help you keep your rifle up when your shot goes off. A lot of people have a tendency to flinch or drop the barrel, sort of in relief of the shot. Keep practicing and aiming through the shot.
Take good care,
Dave

Wow, a lot of great suggestions.

I think (hope) that it is something other than flinch because if I move the crosshairs a number of clicks the zero changes and goes where it needs to.

Most of my shooting over time has been from a bipod, sitting, or prone at 200+ yards as I am primarily a Rocky Mountain hunter.

I am leaning toward the sling tension theory and the possibilty of fatigue (11.5 lb rifle). I am also thinking that 470 Mbogo is on to something with the idea that I am not "aiming through" the shot.

Driver's advice is very helpful as well.

I will have to distill it all down to a checklist to experiment with each possible problem.

No matter what the problem the additional range time will likely help.

My PH says 99% of shots will be from the sticks anyway, so the offhand shooting will be more of a backup. Either way I need to practice offhand.

Hello TJR,
As mentioned, "aiming through the shot..." is a critical function and I have written on my shooting mat, long range prone shooting off of sling at 6-1000 yards w/ micrometer sights, FOLLOW THROUGH!!!!! I notice a lot of newer shooters immediately upon breaking the shot will instantly work the bolt back instead of staying on target and following through. It has been said by highly skilled shooting coaches that you can jerk the barrel, move the rifle, etc. before the bullet exits the bore and pull the shot off your intended target. Might mention a check point to make, when you shoot off hand and upon recovering from recoil, does the sight picture appear as it did when you broke the shot?? It should be very close. Again, practice makes perfect, but you have to practice the right things. Good Luck.

Like 470Mbogo mentioned, pulling down on the forearm in anticipation of the recoil (which is a flinch) is pretty common with big bores. In most cases, guys shooting my 470Mbogo that have missed the target, have in almost all cases missed the target low and left (and they have all been right handed shooters so far that I can recall). Lots of guys manage to nail the first shot (when the recoil is a surprise), but start missing on the subsequent shots. I haven't been mean enough to try a dummy round on anyone yet.

Cheers,
Canuck

I suggest you disregard all advice from target shooters like driver. Be happy your swivel stud is on your barrel where it belongs. It’s there for you to attach a carrying strap, not a sling. Your fore-end is free of such appurtenances because that’s where your left hand belongs, way out there for control and leverage. If you shoot your big-bore like a .308 in that scrunched-up military style you’ll get a faceful of rifle. If you try to compensate by anchoring it to your body with a sling, your point of impact will be all over the place. Ditch the sling. Shoot your rifle offhand more like a shotgunner and less like a smallbore paper-puncher.

Hi TJ

Had a further look through my shooting notes and thought you might find the diagram interesting.
Practice shhoting offhand quickly with follow through.There is no shame in a early flinch, yes you can zero too it but that ruins all the other shooting positions.
Use a PAST recoil shield and concentrate on the POA not the trigger break.


Regards

Mark

Hello Mark H,
Excellent graphic assist to better shooting and there is a reason for each shot not going where you want it to go and this chart spells it out very well. I have copied it for future reference. Good suggestion on the PAST shield for I imagine the recoil of this rifle is an attention getter and that will make you flinch a bit. I did suggest dry firing, but whatever works for the shooter.

Please re-read this post... and let me know what of these you are doing..

do you pull the sling?!?
have you tried (not pulling the sling) leaning your body against something (this helps tons with fatigue)

and most importantly, how do you NORMALLY shoot offhand, or is this your first attempts at groups?


you can work out the fatigue issue rather quickly.. in less than a week, if you are willing...

always make certain your gun is empty for this

find a point of aim out a window or outside.. recall, i said POINT, so think match head, not beachball...

raise the rifle to ready, take aim, take up trigger pressure, and HOLD that sightpicture as long as possible.. DO NOT SNAP THE TRIGGER

you will start wobbling then shaking very (surprisingly) quickly.. it doesn't matter if it's a 5# trick 22 or a 20#BMG, this shake will come, and will come quickly...

lower the rifle, and take 30-45 seconds to rest, taking slow deep breaths...

then pick up the rifle while letting out 1/2 a breath, aim to that spot, and pull the trigger WHILE WATCHING EXACTLY were your point of aim moves while you are pulling the trigger...and then put the rifle INSTANTLY back on that target after the rifle moves with the trigger pull.. don't let your pride fool you, the rifle WILL move when the trigger falls.

I don't know you, but I can tell you that the majority of people never pay attention to this. WHERE was the point of aim when the trigger snapped? This is critical, as it will begin to train you on follow through, and will help with your flinch (everyone flinches, most don't control it)

Now, repeat this exercise 10 times, you will have decreasing returns on holding the rifle before the wobble starts...

let that go for an hour or so, and try again. Never do this more than 3x a day.


Nextly,
when you are at the range, in ALL shooting positions, to shoot big bores well there is a neato trick... once you snap the trigger, before you reach for the bolt handle, put the rifle INSTANTLY back on the point of aim...

Concentration on this ONE thing will take away a large part of FELT recoil, in that you are no longer concerned with the KICK you are concerned with the AIM... trust me.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Tighten your action screws... is it full length bedded?

are you pulling on the sling off hand?

(for testinf)if you can, off hand, lean your offside shoulder against a tree or have a friend stand there... and see if your groups improve...

and, just asking, (because most people dont) .. do you shoot off hand much?
jeffe

Some good dry firing practice around the house will help you develop an offhand technique that works. I have helped a number of people including my kids learn to shoot accurately offhand. First, forget the sling. I grew up shooting driven whitetails and coyotes, when one jumps up you never have time to use it. Whether the barrel band swivel affects POI is irrelevant, if I have time to get into a sling I have time to find a rest or sit down with a bipod which is a hell of a lot better. My basic technique is to lock my eyes, both open on the target, with the gun butt under my arm, take my breath, bring the rifle to my shoulder and touch off the shot as soon as the sight settles on the target. Trying to be too deliberate is counterproductive as you just wait for the wiggles to start, this makes you nervous as the sights are dancing then you yank the trigger and get to watch that wonderful sight of a white tail bouncing away from you. I also find it much easier to shoot offhand with the scope on a lower power certainly not more than 4x at the max. In practice it is more similar to shooting a pistol quickly as in shooting bowling pins quickly. If you concentrate on the target and a kind of follow through on the trigger pull, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I have shot a lot this way, and usually shoot at clay pigeons at 75 yards, then move to 100, you should hit at least half of them and you should be able to spot where the shot goes on the rest. The nice thing is you can practice this by dry firing in the yard, which is where you need to do 90% of this . Hopefully you don't have neighbors who'll think your nuts packing a Rigby around the yard, also you need to get out in the country, it's hell to try to get offhand practice at a highly organized range. One final thing, I like to work with weights, and it sure helps to have a good muscle tone, puts off the shaking from fatigue longer. Get off the bench and bipod and learn to shoot offhand, it's a lot more fun than shooting groups on paper.

Jeffeosso,

Yes the rifle is full length bedded. It is actually very accurate I can shoot 3/4" - 1/2" groups from the bench with 400 gr Barnes TSX's and 400 gr Banded Solids. So I am pretty sure there is not a bedding issue or other mechanical issue.

I have the sling tight, but not sure if I am actually "pulling" on it.

I will try to the leaning suggestion this week.

No I don't shoot offhand nearly enough. I do sometimes with my 7MM Rem Mag, but not much.

The rifle is actually grouping pretty well offhand, it is just grouping about 5" low when I shoot it offhand.

I thought using the sling would help with muzzle lift, in order to get a quicker follow up shot on buffalo etc.

I will try your suggested exercise tonight after the rug rat is in bed.

What about this idea of interboat's suggesting that with a big bore I should be shooting more like a shotgun? Seems logical.

Come to think of it I don't recall anyone ever discussing whether they use a sling for DG hunting or not.

Todd

TJR,
Lot of good advice above from many. I think it is simply sling pressure down on barrel mounted sling base. I have done it before too.

I also used to have the opposite problem of shooting too high offhand after I zeroed from the bench. At the bench I would hold the rifle down too hard on the bags, then off hand I would be about 5 inches too high at 100 yards.

Now I zero all big bores with the same technique as used with a double rifle. You must replicate consistently the same shooting form (body contact points and forces on the rifle) whether shooting off hand, off sticks, standing rest, or even upright posture at a bench with the rifle forend in your hand, rather than on the bags.

Your Dakota African has no barrel recoil lug and may be free-floated, or as you say, full contact bedded in the barrel channel. The barrel is not super heavy. Pressure on the barrel mounted sling could certainly do it.

Slings are mainly just carrying straps for me too, unless I have a rifle with forend mounted sling that I have verified shooting well with a tight sling.

I would much rather sit down and rest my elbows or distal triceps against the medial surfaces of my knees, or have my hat against a tree to pad the back of my left hand gripping the forend of the rifle. I like a soft leather shooting glove on the left hand too, especially when shooting off sticks, gripping double rifle barrels, or fending off thorns.

I also always hold the forend on the rest as you would while shooting offhand and never notice a change in POI. It also is just good common sense to shoot a big bore off the bench in an upright position. Bend over and crawl the stock like you're shooting a varmint rifle and you know what will happen eventually.

Wow TJR

Thats not a very accurate rifle, thats super super accurate for a sporter weight barrel. I can get 0.4" groups out of my 308 and just a touch over 1" with my 375 both with sporter barrels and a huge ammount of load development.
We'll swap places. Whats your secret because you must be totally flinch free to benchrest a 416 with that degree of accuracy?
Are you using a muzzel break?

Regards

Mark

Mark,

I was amazed by the groups I shot with it. I will try to scan the targets and post them here a bit later, or tomorrow. The targets I have are .7xx" measured center to center.

I shot a group or two with the banded solids that went .6xx" hence the statement "between 3/4" - 1/2"."

I will admit that I got scope bit on the bench a couple of times!!

Todd

TJR,

My Dakota, in 375H&H, is also very, very accurate. Three shot groups are a real cloverleaf if I'm doing well, an inch leaves me annoyed. And thats with factory federal 300gr Trophy Bonded Bearclaws.

I have found that my Dakota, which is full length bedded and has aluminum pillars (from Dakota that way), will shoot higher off the bags if I use no forward hand on the forearm. Not 5" though. It will also shoot very high off the sticks if I don't either put my hand on top of the sticks and hold the forearm or set the rifle on the sticks just forward of the floorplate and hold the forearm forward of the sticks.

FWIW, I needed a hand load with 300gr Woodleigh solids to get my 375 shooting solids into the softpoint groups.

JPK

Editted to note that if the rifle shoots high off the bench with the forearm on the bags and no forward hand on the forearm to moderate muzzle jump, it will shoot low when you are shooting offhand, holding the forearm. Same with the sticks.

It's your hold and antisipation of the coming recoil. (IMHO) If the gun is shooting good off the bench then it will shoot good off-hand. Nothing wrong with the action screws or it would show up off the bench. I doubt you could pull on your sling hard enough to throw a shoot off by 5" at 50 yards. That's pulling pretty hard. Have someone load your gun for you and then you fire it. Every once in a while the guy should hand you an empty gun to check your flinch. Bet it's there!

At 50 yrds you should easily be able to shoot into 2 inches for 5 shots offhand with a .416 Rigby and keep all shots on a paper plate at 100 yrds again offhand. If you need to shoot at more than 100 yrds don't use a .416 Rigby! Use a .30 mag something or other. Don't try the tight military sling thing with a DGR as it will cause you to shoot low. Slings on DGR's are for carrying not shooting. Have someone watch you and see if your dropping the muzzel before the shot or taking your head off the stock.-Rob

Hi TJR,
If your not sure about shooting more like a shotgunner, it means to lean into your rifle but not in an exagerated way. Go to the video section of my site and look at the Aimed Rapid Fire video to get a good idea.
Take good care,
Dave

Thanks Dave I will!