Actually I did call and email Butch - he hasn't answered either one yet but thats not unusual. In the past when buying doubles from him it sometimes took a couple days but he eventually answered me.

Ray apparently does not know for sure. He said he bought it from Bill Dowtin who he believes bought it from Butch who imported it from South Africa.

Ultimately it all does not amount to a big concern with me. The rifle works just fine, feeds well for a 404 and fits me very well. I am pleased. In fact I never even asked what type of action it was before I traded for it so I don't feel gyped in any way.

However just for the conversation with others around the fires in Africa and for the day that I eventually sell it I would like to know what it is so I can truthfully represent it. Therefore I will keep on researching until I eventually find out what it is.

I wish it had been a Saterlee however. They look like great actions and at $4,000 to $6,500 each they would have been a bonanza.

I am no expert by any means (not even close to one however I am designing a Holiday Inn Express - here in Branson) but the few Mark X actions I have seen have Mark X engraved on the left side of the front ring. This one does not. It just has the numbers 514.

Also looking at the specs on FN actions doesn't give me much confidence that it is an FN unless it has been opened up considerably. It has no markings on it at all except the numbers.

I did read that Vektor once bought two or three hundred surplus Mauser actions. I wonder if that is where it came from???

So thanks for everyones thoughts and observations. I appreciate it. If any of you experts happen by Branson on vacation call me and I will press you to come examine it.

Over the years I have handled a few of "Rays" rifles and all of them have been very good handling guns.

... Ya , it looks like a rifle I would want to shoot and hunt with very much !!!!!

The action pictured appears to be long magnum length to me. Actual dimensions would tell for sure. This is a Vektor action:

Ditto.
Center-to-center length between the action screws looks to be longer than a standard M98.
Still may be most excellent in every way other than confusion over the origin of the action.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
The action pictured appears to be long magnum length to me. Actual dimensions would tell for sure. This is a Vektor action:

This trigger guard shure looks similar if that means anything even including the little hole... Does anyone have the dimensions of a Vektor? I would like to compare this one.

Email from Butch:
Allen it could be one of my actions but the front and rear square bridges were removed. Some people don't like square bridged actions.
Take Care
Butch

Please refer to Type IX (the Vektor was a close facsimile of the Oberndorf #20):

Originally posted by ForrestB:

http://p223.ezboard.com/fcurio...sage?topicID=1.topic

M98 STANDARD LENGTH ACTIONS

Type I, these are the "most standard" Mausers. Probably 75% or more of all Mausers produced after 1898 will fall into this category. I am not going to list every model, that would take a book of it's own, but if your particular model is not listed, comparing the dimensions will place it into the correct category.

Type I:
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.410 large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

Some of the models that fall into Type I are:
Chilean M1912, Steyr
GEW 98, various mfr's
Brazilian M1908/34, Brno
VZ24, 98/22, 98/29, Brno
M1908 Brazilian, DWM
M1909 Argentine, DWM
M24/30 Venezuelan, FN
M1935 Peruvian, FN
Standard Modell, Mauser Oberndorf
K98k, various mfr's

The above list is not all-inclusive but M98 Mausers fall into this category.


Type II, standard length, small ring, small shank
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980 small shank

This is pretty much a Czechoslovakian design, the main members of this group are the VZ33 and the G33-40, a commercial version is the VZ47.


Type III, standard length, small ring, large shank
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7,835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.315
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

Type IV, standard length, small ring, small shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980 small shank

These are mainly commercial models, they are identical to Type II, with the exception of a longer magazine to handle 30-06 length cartridges. Main examples are the Husqvarna commercial action, and the Brno 21/22.

Type V, standard length, large ring, large shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.410 large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

This is a beefier version of the Type IV. It is typified by the late FN commercial actions.


M98 INTERMEDIATE LENGTH ACTIONS

This is actually a fairly small group of models, the amount of headaches these cause (when trying to find a part or stock) is way out of proportion to the number of models. Most of these will have some part of the action shortened to save weight. Starting off with Type VI:

Type VI, Oberndorf intermediate action
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.165
Magazine length: 3.115
Receiver ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

I call this the Oberndorf intermediate action, as they are the only ones who produced it. Commonly encountered models include:
1903 Turk
1909 Peruvian
1935 Argentine
Oberndorf Commercial

The 1903 Turk and the 1909 Peruvian also share some other qualities. They both have a very high clip bridge, and a long curved arm on the ejector box that puts pressure on a stripper clip loaded into the receiver, holding it in place. The 1935 Argentine and the Oberndorf commercial action do not have this.
This type has a longer than normal receiver ring, and a longer than normal cocking piece, with a shorter than normal bolt body, hard to figure where the weight savings come in!
The Oberndorf commercial action was also available in a small ring version, all other dimensions identical.


Type VII, FN24 and Yugo actions
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.115
Magazine length: 3.232
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank

This is the FN M24 action, and the Yugoslavian M48 series. I call this group the Yugoslavian intermediate action. There is also a Type VIIA, FN24 Mexican, see below.


Type VIIA, FN24 Mexican
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.165
Magazine length: 3.232
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank

I call the Type VIIA the Mexican large ring action. The only difference between the Type VII and VIIA is the length of the bolt body (0.050 difference).


Type VIII, small ring Mexican
Action OAL: 8.500
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.620
Bolt body length: 6.080
Magazine length: 3.118
Recvr ring dia: 1.300, small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

The Type VIII has the shortest bolt body in this group. Common models are the Mexican M1910, and M1936. Either one can be found manufactured by FN or Fabrica de Armas in Mexico City.

LONG AND SHORT ACTIONS

Now we are into the expensive stuff! The long actions and short actions are commercial only. The British type were imported from Oberndorf Germany (Type 20 Oberndorf), for long cartridges such as the .416 Rigby or .505 Gibbs. The French type is longer than the British type, and was actually made in France.

Type IX, British Type, aka M98 long, aka Commercial #20 Oberndorf Germany Magnum
Action OAL: 9.150
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.770
Magazine length: 3.640/3.840
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank


Type X, French Type, aka French Magnum, aka Brevex Magnum
Action OAL: 9.240
Recvr screws, center to center: 8.207
Bolt body length: 6.740
Magazine length: 3.900
Recvr ring dia: 1.500, X-large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.141, X-large shank.

Notice that the French (Brevex) magnum is larger in every dimension than the British (Oberndorf) magnum, but the French (Brevex) bolt is shorter by .030"

Type XI, "True" short action, Commercial Kurz
Action OAL: 8.125
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.225
Bolt body length: 5.760
Magazine length: 2.725
Recvr ring dia: 1.300, small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980, small shank

what ever the action is palmer i hope you come out on the up side money wise.
hate to see you or anyone get shafted.

but i will say this, if Bill Dowtin is involved its a fucking mess.
Ray seems to be his buddy but that would not stop bill dowtin from lying to ray in order to sell him something.

bill dowtin is about the worste piece of shit you will ever have the miss fortune of stepping in. if he was anywhere near a gun or any part of a gun - caveat emptor.

Thanks fla3006 - my measurements appear to be closest to the type IX, British type, aka M98 long, aka Commercial #20 Oberndorf Germany Magnum

Action OAL: 9.150 (mine is 9.273)
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835 (mine is 8.093)
Bolt body length: 6.770 (mine is 6.68)
Magazine length: 3.640/3.840 (mine is 3.714)
Recvr ring dia: 1.410, large ring (mine is 1.403)
Barrel shank dia: 1.100, large shank (mine is 1.189)

Would you have a photo of the other side of a Vektor action?

Here's one for sale with pics?Hope this helps...
http://www.gunsamerica.com/996..._505_Gibbs_Rifle.htm

Thanks blackbearhunter that is interesting. Quite a price on that one.

This is the one i have been looking for to show you,finally found it...very nice

http://www.riflestockpainting.com/Projects.html

?

Thanks blackbearhunter - the more I look at Vektors the more the one I have appears to be one also - except for the square bridges - who knows maybe Butch is right and someone milled them off?

One thing I noticed on Duanes action the one photo with the numbers 511 stamped on the front ring. Those numbers are exactly like mine except mine is 514.

If I were starting over, knowing what I know today, I would have just one African big bore bolt rifle and it would be a 404 on a magnum Mauser by Duane Wiebe.

Also thanks Alf for the pictures of that initial project 375. Here is an amatuer question - What is the advantage or drawback to a straight bolt handle rather than the bent one as shown on that rifle. Does it have something to do with clearing the scope?

FWIW- You would not Mill off a square bridge, you would grind it off. Given the fact that even a moron knows a square bridge action is MUCH more desirable than a std round action, I find it hard to believe they did that unless it was to salvage a damaged action. One other question is did Ray actually build this gun himself or did his old buddy Jack Belk have something to do with it? BTW does it shoot to the open sights or is it Way off? I have a reason for asking.-Rob

i bought one, once, that HAD been milled off ... didn't like it .. sold it for a several loss

Allen advised me of this thread, lots of plain BS going on as one would expect..
Bill Dowtin whom I have only met one time but have bought wood from him on the phone purchased 6 of these Vector actions from Butch and never paid for them as I understand it..Dennis Olso did much of the metal work. The Wisner is fully adjustable for windage and elevation..

It is by measurement a full blown Mauser M-20 size action and its a fine rifle contrary to some of the information being distorted by this thread about this gun and some other stuff..Alf knows that guy waited a year to decide he wanted his money back on another gun and it was not misrepresented and I have the emails between us..I gave him his money back and sold the gun to my lawyer who jumped on it the minute I told him about the case that guy had threatened to file on me...

That is the trouble with the internet and particularly AR, it consist of a bunch of assholes that set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner, but it won't work with me, I am solvent, old, past this shit, and have many other outlets.

The same crap happened with the double I recently sold to one of the AR gentlemen, and some on here emailed him personally and tried to sabotage our deal, telling him the gun was not worth the deal he made me, well it didn't work, he took it, and he was offered $2000 more than he paid just a couple of days ago. I even told him that I would sell the gun for him if he ever decided he wanted to get rid of it and could sell it for him today for a profit...

So much for the wanna be experts on AR...I have many friends on AR, but it is a magnet for flamers who don't know from whence they come and can kiss my ass..Whine on whiners.

Ray

Good to see you on AR.

Ray was the double the little Jeffery 450/400?

It's a fine looking rifle, Allen. Good luck with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Bill Dowtin whom I have only met one time but have bought wood from him on the phone purchased 6 of these Vector actions from Butch and never paid for them as I understand it.

So tell me Ray, you knowingly sold a stolen firearm? Did you tell Palmer there's a chance that Butch Searcy could report the action you sold him as stolen?

There's a long line of folks who have been ripped off by Bill Dowtin, but you've been Dowtin's shill here for years.

Since your memory seems awfully short when it's convenient for you, I've pasted a little reminder for you...

RE: Re: Some great wood (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
Bill Dowtin, Dowtin Gun Works has some of the best wood I have ever seen and the price is right..It comes out of Russia and Australia...You might want to take a look at his web page and give him a call... www.oldworldwalnut.com 406-771-0968...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
May 13, 04 19:54

RE: Stocks on Big Bores (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
Oldworldwalnut.com That is Bill Dowtin who has Circasian walnut out of Russia, as far as I know he is the only person that has the real stuff..and he is not expensive....
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Jun 11, 08 13:01

RE: Bozeman area advice sought (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
Bill Dowtin in Great falls, Mt. has the finest wood I have seen in many years and at the best prices I have seen. 406-771-0968 and www.oldworldwalnut.com...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
Jun 07, 04 23:05

RE: whos' got a turkish quarterswan blank in hiding? (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
Jeffe, Then you should be looking at English, it runs a bit less...contact Bill Dowtin, he had a few nice $200 blanks, no sap but pretty plain, however it is good wood and dry,..406-771-0968...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
Mar 25, 05 20:55

RE: Australian English Walnut ?? (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
Bill Dowtin, http://www.oldworldwalnut.com has some Aussie $200 dry stuff that is very good wood..Call him at 406-771-0968 as he does not advertise it on his web sight......
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
Jun 03, 05 01:03

RE: 458 500 grn + 2300 fps = magic speed? (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
I have not used the 450s but I am betting they will work fine, in fact I know they will in that good designed bullet. I do know that a 240 gr. 338 caliber Northfork soft will shoot length wise through a bison after breaking the big shoulder bone. Bill Dowtin, Dowtin Gun Works, just did...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Dec 20, 04 23:06

RE: Best stock for first Africa / DGR. (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
Jim Brockmon, 208-934-5050 has all the English classic stock patterns, including the HH and my drop box pattern..Bill Dowtin has the best wood at the best price I have seen in many a year...I would opt for a European walnut for a big bore......
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
Jul 21, 04 04:09

RE: North Fork Bullets (Pictures) (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
dowtin, Dowtin Gun Works, tells me they outshoot Balistips and thats no light praise...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Dec 11, 01 19:57

RE: 10x75x68 (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
Just got a supply of 340 gr. .423 bullets from Bill Dowtin, they are Northfork softpoints...I am getting 2550 FPS av. with about the same pressure that I was getting with a Woodleigh 350 gr., now ... up and my fingers thaw.... If this load will shoot lengthwise on a Bison for Bill Dowtin in his .404...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Feb 25, 05 21:55

RE: Express rifle co. (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
Dowtin who told me about it, We decided we'd pass on that....If something is too good to be true...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
May 21, 01 17:56

RE: Re: what big bores do you own (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
I have been selling my guns like wild lately, buying me a team roping horse thats out of this world, but expensive...In big bores, I am down to: 375 HH English bolt rifle 9.3x62 in a Brno 22F 416 Rem in a Ruger No.1 470 Searcy double with aDowtin Custom stock 338 Win. Custom Rifle 300 HH Custom...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Sep 27, 04 04:25

RE: circassian walnut my A$$ (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
I may be poorly informed, but I am informed by Darwin Hensley, Bill Dowtin, D'Arcy Echols, Dressels, and half a dozen others who I called at your suggestion, there comment was who is that guy?, and I'll let it fo at that... In my opinnion you talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk...You can...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Jul 08, 05 11:25

MY Newbie (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
I recently picked up a new large action Mauser barrelled action in a 404 Jefferys from Bill Dowtin, It is one of Butch Searcy old actions with a Krieger barrel..I will add sights and swivels, it came with one of Bills super nice Russians Circassian walnut blanks. This one is a keeper so I will sell...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Jul 29, 08 13:00

Re: 338win-225gr-XTS load data? (in Reloading) by Atkinson
My gun likes 78 grs. of R22 for 2750 in my 24" barrel and shoots one inch or a tad over that as a rule.. My favorite load is 69 grs. of RL-22 and the 300 gr. Woodleigh... At any rate I have found RL-19 and RL-22 the best powder in the .338 followed by 4831 and 4350. Bill Dowtin tells me he gets...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Reloading
Mar 15, 04 22:15

RE: Kick-eez Pad Installation (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
...I got the idea from Jack Belk and Bill Dowtin and tried it.------------------ Ray...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
Feb 12, 02 05:50

RE: Montana hardwood? (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
I think you go ahead and just get a good walnut stock and you can have it laminated or not, up to you, but even in laminate you need good properly cured, dry and hard wood.. I'd go visit Bill Dowtin and find a piece of good walnut that is pretty on one side and plain on the other and have...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
May 06, 03 06:03

RE: Checkering wood laminate stocks? (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
I have checkered several of them without a problem and no popped off diamonds...Like Claro or black walnut I soak the checkering area with hot stuff glue and checker...It works like a charm... I also have a Dowtin rifle thats a laminated Turkish bland and it has a different and very neat pattern...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
Feb 23, 05 21:47
RE: Double Rifles, and Fine Companions (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
DAle, I figured you for haveing the uglest dog in town... Nitro X, Yes I will shoot some buffalo with that load..but I will also shoot some more with my .470 thats being stocked by Bill Dowtin in some darn fancy wood..I thought I had better let that be know least 470 No.2 would have me gilflurted...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
Jan 30, 05 21:31

RE: North Fork bullet results (in Reloading) by Atkinson
and gunwriter Phil Shoemaker really liked them on Brown Bear this year, Bill Dowtin, Dowtin Gun Works...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Reloading
Nov 08, 01 22:33

RE: Name your favorite whitetail gun and caliber !! (in Medium Bore Rifles) by Atkinson
I don't much care one way or another which of my guns I use on whitetail or mule deer, most of them will do just fine...I guess today if I were going whitetail hunting I would take my .308 Win on a Mauser 98 action by Bill Dowtin or My scoped 99 Savage in 308 or 250 Savage..or my 30-30 SRC family...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Medium Bore Rifles
Jul 23, 04 22:26

RE: 404 Jeffery on win 70, quesitons (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
buy all my wood these days from Bill Dowtin at oldworldwalnut.com Good prices and great wood......
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Sep 18, 04 20:14

RE: Northfork cup nosed solids report? (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
Bill Dowtin used the North Forks in a hi vel 7 mag wildcat and he said they were very accurate indeed and he had a expanded 284 bullet and it looked just like the rest..you can make book on picture perfect expansion with ANY North Fork bullet, they all clone each other....and they are all super...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
Nov 09, 02 03:42

RE: 338 Comparisons (in Medium Bore Rifles) by Atkinson
is detremental to bullet integrity and penitration IMO...Bill Dowtin gets 2500 FPS with a dose of 75 grs...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Medium Bore Rifles
Oct 08, 03 23:59

RE: North Fork Bullets (Pictures) (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
, and Bill Dowtin tried them on my recommendation and they praised them highly...I sent a bunch...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Dec 10, 01 20:31

RE: Stepped Barrels; "THE" classic contour for .404's (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
brockman, Belk, Harvey, or Dowtin and a few others that I have talked to...They are most amazing....
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Dec 14, 03 06:39

RE: Lothar Walther Barrels (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
Lothar-Walthar Barrals are the greatest thing since white bread and popcorn were discovered.. I have used a dozen of them and personally know of about 20 or so more and they have ALL been wonder barrels, all under an inch and that is unreal.... I know that Jack Belk, Bill Dowtin, and Jim Brockman...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
Feb 25, 03 03:02

RE: Lothar Walther vs. Krieger; what would you use? (in Gunsmithing) by Atkinson
I used Krieger, Pacnor and Lilja for years, but the last 15 or so barrels I have used have been Lothar-Walther and I'm not about to change back and neither is anyone who uses them.... When guys like Belk, Brockman, Dowtin and others change from the old relaibles like Kreiger and Pacnor then you...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Gunsmithing
Jun 20, 03 04:29

RE: More questions about a 416 ruger (in Wildcats And Their Development) by Atkinson
stocking it in a really nice piece of Russian Circasian walnut from Bill Dowtin, Its inletted...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Wildcats And Their Development
Feb 14, 08 23:08

RE: Out with the Old; in with the New! (in American Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
, Bill Dowtin, Bill Harvey to name a few.Quality control has gone to hell in a hand basket and production...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > American Big Game Hunting
May 11, 02 22:27

RE: .423/340gr North Fork Bullets: .404 Jeffery Twist Rates May Vary (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
I have not used that bullet, I used the 380 gr. with the same load data that I use for the 400 gr. bullet... However, I sent Bill Dowtin Bison hunting and he used that load in his 404 at 2600 plus...It punched the shoulder, broke it and came to rest in the ham under the skin perfectly fully...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Feb 16, 05 13:00

RE: Different Drummer (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
Bill Dowtin with terroism if he does not send me a couple of boxes of those Northforks until Mike...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Jan 29, 05 13:51

RE: Re: 404 jeffries (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
with the caliber...Bill Harvey, Jack Belk, Jim Brockman, Dennis Olson, Bill Dowtin, D'Arcy Echols...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
Mar 25, 04 08:59

RE: My new 404 Jefferys (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
I got the photos emailed to 500 grs. along with the checkering job that Bill Dowtin exposed me too, both guns are laminate stocks and this type of checkering really does work well on them as they tend to chip with use because of the glass content...All you use is a bordering tool, then muller...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
Jul 10, 04 20:21

RE: My .404 Jeffery: Don't Look Ray! (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
the wood, but nothing showed from the outside, Bill Dowtin said it could have been caused by the wood...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
Jul 17, 04 02:34

MY new 416 Ruger (in African Big Game Hunting) by Atkinson
Finished it today... Mauser 1908 action, Lothar Walthar 20 inch barrel, barrel band swivel, barrel band front sight with a NECG gold faced partridge sight; Talley bolt handle, two pos. wing safety, nice peice of Russian Circasian from DowtinGun Works (oldworldwalnut.com) Limb saver recoil pad...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > African Big Game Hunting
May 12, 08 13:17

RE: circassian walnut my A$$ (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
it and if they know wood..I also talked to Bill Dowtin and much of his wood is out of Russia these days and he...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Jul 03, 05 10:16

RE: Rays 404 (in Big Bores) by Atkinson
Allen advised me of this thread, lots of plain BS going on as one would expect.. Bill Dowtin whom I have only met one time but have bought wood from him on the phone purchased 6 of these Vector actions from Butch and never paid for them as I understand it..Dennis Olso did much of the metal work...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores

Now thats funny,dont care who you are

There you go introducing facts. What a bastard!

Forrest, I knew you were a trouble-maker when we had supper one night down at the Dallas SC thing two years ago.
Max

EMAIL EXCHANGE BELOW:

Allen, that is definitely a Vektor action that has had the square bridges removed.
Butch

Johnson, Allen wrote:

Butch below is a list of the measurements of this action as close as I can measure:

Action OAL: (9.273)
Recvr screws, center to center: (8.093)
Bolt body length: (6.68)
Magazine length: (3.714)
Recvr ring dia: (1.403)
Barrel shank dia: (1.189)

Allen W. Johnson, AIA, NCARB, LEED AP
General Design, Inc.
Branson, Missouri

Forrest,

HOLY SHIT!!!!!!

That is the biggest hammer I have ever witnessed falling in any forum on any website.
That was like watching a prairie dog get busted in slow motion.


That is Beautiful. Stunning. Now you should go to Washington and set those lying bastards straight on capitol hill.

Hey Ray, how did that feel?

Man I am laughing out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Allen advised me of this thread, lots of plain BS going on as one would expect..
Bill Dowtin whom I have only met one time but have bought wood from him on the phone purchased 6 of these Vector actions from Butch and never paid for them as I understand it. Dennis Olso did much of the metal work. The Wisner is fully adjustable for windage and elevation..

It is by measurement a full blown Mauser M-20 size action and its a fine rifle contrary to some of the information being distorted by this thread about this gun and some other stuff..Alf knows that guy waited a year to decide he wanted his money back on another gun and it was not misrepresented and I have the emails between us..I gave him his money back and sold the gun to my lawyer who jumped on it the minute I told him about the case that guy had threatened to file on me...

That is the trouble with the internet and particularly AR, it consist of a bunch of assholes that set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner, but it won't work with me, I am solvent, old, past this shit, and have many other outlets.

The same crap happened with the double I recently sold to one of the AR gentlemen, and some on here emailed him personally and tried to sabotage our deal, telling him the gun was not worth the deal he made me, well it didn't work, he took it, and he was offered $2000 more than he paid just a couple of days ago. I even told him that I would sell the gun for him if he ever decided he wanted to get rid of it and could sell it for him today for a profit...

So much for the wanna be experts on AR...I have many friends on AR, but it is a magnet for flamers who don't know from whence they come and can kiss my ass..Whine on whiners.

Anytime that you are involved in an internet roe with Ray make sure and quote him as he will come in later and change his original post to make himself look better after the facts have been presented. This guy never fails to amaze me.

quote:

This is imo no small omission as it is a major determinant of the intrinsic value of the rifle in question. It's almost as bad as having someone drill and tap the bridges of a genuine Oberndorf sporting action though the inscriptions or banner on the bridge and then fit Weaver bases to it.

I can say from personal and bitter experience that my Orbendorf was not improved by the Weaver bases.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

quote:

This is imo no small omission as it is a major determinant of the intrinsic value of the rifle in question. It's almost as bad as having someone drill and tap the bridges of a genuine Oberndorf sporting action though the inscriptions or banner on the bridge and then fit Weaver bases to it.

I can say from personal and bitter experience that my Orbendorf was not improved by the Weaver bases.

LD

....
.
. LD , I,m sorry , and I mean no offense but .........
.... I have had some very painful gunsmith experiences , but none that bad .....

Don't know Ray don't imagine I ever will but I actually would to see what a man that is so disliked by a couple of members on here take such vitrolic action against looks like. I have always rather liked the rifles he has presenrted on this forum. This one is exceptionally nice in my opinion.I have never understood the absolute reverence people feel about Mauser actions and rifles.They also apply the feeling to double rifles on here.I actually happen to have an original single square bridge action that started life as a Westley Richards 318 Accelerated. It is now a 375 H&H by me and several others. I have never actually seen any value in the square bridge on this action. It adds nothing of any real value to the rifle and makes it more difficult to scope should I choose to do so.Not particularly attractive aesthetically to me. Double squares are the same unless you expend large amounts of money and effort to produce mounts for them.I also PERSONALLY have nothing against Weaver bases as I find them to be small,unobtrusive and above all economical. As to all the above vitriol about Ray I never saw a single one of the postings illustrated in which Ray EVER said he MET with Dowtin (whoever HE is)but conversed with him, via phone I suppose. I have found on this forum it does not really pay to have opinions out of the norm and make them known. There is tremendous knowledge and experience here and it is a valuable resource but these diatribes do little to enhance that aspect.

I just looked at my double square bridge Vektor action and interestingly it does have the Serial number number 510 on the left side of the front ring. Maybe Palmers action really is a Vektor that was mutilated by Ray with his grinding wheel intentionally to stir up trouble here on AR? Another possibilty is the action was ground because a famed gunsmith may have tried to mill talley dovetails into the bridges and after finding out how hard they are, deceided to cover up the damage by a cosmetic grinding? Ray being crafty, may have concocted the whole deal with Palmer to flush out his admirers. FWIW- Ive always liked Ray and he always treated me well although I think he got cought a couple of times with his pants down. So have many others BTW.When you sell hunts and guns to people and things dont go right,the lust for revenge seems to supercede common sense. Must be the summer blood lust season, folks are getting weird lately.
Palmer take and post a good close-up of the 514SN on your rifle and I'll compare it to mine. The Font is unique and mine and the Duane Wiebe pics look identical. Is it possible ol Ray has taken up forging Vektor actions as a prelude to entering the more lucrative Luger forging market? Nah!-Rob

quote:

Robgunbuilder: Is it possible ol Ray has taken up forging Vektor actions as a prelude to entering the more lucrative Luger forging market? Nah!-Rob

Such bloviation & inaccuracies:

Atkinson, November 12, 2004, Gunsmithing-

"[Brevexes] are made for such calibers as the 505, 416 Rigby and 500 Jefferys among others...It is a huge old Mauser type action made in France...Like everything else in France it is counterfiet...They fetched big prices in the USA at one time, but the advent of some of the new large Mauser actions have pretty well left them expensive only in the minds of their owners who paid those big bucks...Also there were at one time a lot of bad Brevex actions floating around and also some fake Brevexes around, so be carefull if you purchase one..."

Mr. Atkinson,

I have read and enjoyed the many articles you have posted at AR in the past...

You certinly have the credits for discussing DG hunting and DG rifle building..

However, your answering post,for this thread, is a little gray and has me a little disturbed..

You stated the following..

Bill Dowtin whom I have only met one time but have bought wood from him on the phone purchased 6 of these Vector actions from Butch and never paid for them as I understand it..

If you were aware these actions had been obtained in any manner, other then legal, from Mr. Sercy, you should have refused acceptance, and contacted Mr. Sercy for his input..

Maybe I'm reading all of this wrong, and I hope this is the case, you might want to comment on this for all who have been reading here..

Again, I would surely enjoy reading more of your memories as to DG hunting here at AR..

Roger QSL

Fake Brevex's and Fake Vektors? Perhaps we will need to check the machining marks to be sure. I lean towards the theory that this is a real Vektor that was ground to hide damage. Although double square bridges may not appeal to everyone, everyone knows they are more valuable and I just dont see them being ground off for any reason other than to hide damage. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how I see it.-Rob

Well- Hard to tell from the pics but doesnt look the same to me. With that said, when the double square bridge was removed by grinding, the smith definately removed the original SN and had to re-stamp it by law. NOTICE THE SHAPE OF THE 5 and the Big Difference in the 1's. These are NOT the same stamps! Doesnt mean its not a Vektor though! Palmer what is the length measurement of your front action ring? The photos seem, although at a different angle, make it look longer than mine. Let me know.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Palmer:
When Ray told me he was putting this 404 together to keep I knew it would sooner or later be too much of a temptation for him to sell or trade.

Here is what he told me about it:

The action is an imported by Butch Searcy full size magnum action (Vektor of So. Africa). It was blueprinted.

The wood is Russian Circassian Walnut imported by Bill Dowtin. It was selected for straight grain through the wrist and minimal marbeling.

The pattern is Ray’s combination of an early Holland and Holland rifle with a Jack Hogue design.

The cross bolts are engraved and antiqued gray.

It was braced up with glass after hand bedding it completely.

Ray inserted into the quarter rib a shallow v adjustable island sight taken out of Jim Wisners pre 64 .458 sights from the early years. It is adjustable for windage and elevation.

Lothar Walthar barrel

Custom magnum bottom metal built for this big action holds 5 down.

M-70 3 position safety

Custom trigger

Drilled and tapped for 8-40 screws.

Talley barrel band front sight,straight bolt and barrel band swivel.

Weighs 9lb 9 oz.

I am not intending to stir up an sh!t with this post, but this thread has me a little confused.

From what I can see, it looks like a Vektor action but why anyone would grind off the square bridges is beyond me (unless as Rob says it was damaged somehow). Anyway, what I am wondering about is if the rifle Palmer bought has a Lothar Walther barrel or a Kreiger barrel?

quote:

MY Newbie (in Big Bores) by Atkinson:
I recently picked up a new large action Mauser barrelled action in a 404 Jefferys from Bill Dowtin, It is one of Butch Searcy old actions with a Krieger barrel..I will add sights and swivels, it came with one of Bills super nice Russians Circassian walnut blanks. This one is a keeper so I will sell...
Accuratereloading.com > The Accurate Reloading Forums > THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS > Big Bores
Jul 29, 08 13:00

Maybe they're two different 404's from Dowtin, on the actions bought from Searcy?

Its a dang fine looking rifle regardless. I'd be pretty happy with it (provided I bought what was being sold, which sounds like is the case here regardless).

Cheers
Canuck

I am the owner of one of the Vektor actions posted earlier. Palmer's rifle does bear some similarity, but the safety and cocking piece look different to me. Palmer's cocking piece doesn't appear to have the slot on the right rear like mine and fla3006's have:



Like Rob noted, the engraving/stamping of the serial numbers is totally different.

As for the possibility of the square square bridges being ground off, it is definitely within the realm of possibility. I also bought my action from Dowtin before I knew any better. One of the many problems with it was that Dowtin had tried to cut some dovetails into the square bridges and screwed them up. He got the dimensions wrong and they would not fit any rings. Luckily I had Duane as a builder and he was able to fix them. It is entirely conceivable that the Bridges were ground off to cover up a Dowtin butcher job.

Cas II- As a point of interest. I tried to cut the Tallet Dovetails into my Vektor also and nearly had a disaster. The action was much harder than expected and dulled the cutter in seconds. I had to use a very expensive carbide cutter and adjust for the Talley dimensions. As you can see they worked. Nevertheless, its entirely possible Dowtin or someone else screwed those dovetails up and compensated by grinding off the square bridges to salvage the action. I have to say that thought went through my mind too. FWIW I just spent two days cutting dovetails into my 12GaFH Quarter rib and front sight base. Well its a class A full spincter press, as you make one mistake and ruin the part. Cutting Dovetails into hardened $3000 actions isnt for the timid or stupid for that matter.-Rob

CASII
There is a slit in the back of the cocking piece. I lightened up this photo but its still hard to see.



As far as the safety is concerned, Ray said it was a mod 70 type and Stuart Saterlee said it was a Dakota.