Tonight I loaded some plinking rounds for my 510-460: 530gn cast/gas checks (courtesy Jeffe) with 50gn XMP5744, should be about 1850fps, and some 650gn BMG armour piercing rounds I bought cheap at a gun show (30 cents apiece), with 100gn 4895 for an estimated 2100-2200 fps. Anyone else try the BMG bullets in a 50 caliber BGR?

As you can see, they must be single loaded even in a long magnum Mauser action:

Ron Berry has done, but with a longer throat.

Pretty cool. Let us know how they shoot!

105 grains IMR-7828 w/611 grain APIT give average of 1735 fps in my 23.25" barreled Hannibal

110 RL-15 gave 2282 fps.

Be careful with the XMP-5744, it is a very quick powder. It was recommended to me by Accurates (at that time) senior ballistician with a 575 grain gas-checked bullet to use 35 grains.

fla3006,

Did you go ahead and close the bolt on the 50BMG load?? Just to check to see if it will bo short of the rifling.

Hog Killer

Yes, you can be the first to try one Monday.

O'Boy,

Hog Killer

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fla3006:
Tonight I loaded some plinking rounds for my 510-460: 530gn cast/gas checks (courtesy Jeffe) with 50gn XMP5744, should be about 1850fps, and some 650gn BMG armour piercing rounds I bought cheap at a gun show (30 cents apiece), with 100gn 4895 for an estimated 2100-2200 fps. Anyone else try the BMG bullets in a 50 caliber BGR?

fla3006

In the late 80's & early 90's there were very few quality reloading components available for anything bigger than 450 cal in SA . A few of us loaded 50 BMG bullets back to front after cutting a new cannelure on a lathe .( 647 gn if I remember correctly , and we got a velocity of around 2125fps ) They worked very well on buffalo , and on a single side brain shot on an elephant bull .

Brad

Forrest,
The silver tip is API, is it not?

Armor-Piercing Incendiary

I prefer the black tip AP with less fire starting potential, and I know the black tip is very accurate, target-bullet quality. My black tips are 690 grains.

If your bullet is close to 650 grains (I think the incendiary have a bit more weight variance than the black tips), then my load with the 647 grain Speer FMJ-BT ball (copper jacketed steel core) will be applicable:

IMR 4350 charge = 110.0 grains
Speer 647 gr ball: 2200 fps in 27" barrel

The black tip AP bullets work fine in a standard freebore throat of the 500 A2 which is 0.4000" freebore.

They also work fine in a shorter freebore of 0.3000" which I have in a 23" barreled rifle, which ought to give about 2100 fps with the above load.

Ron, there's no phosphorus or incendiary chemical on the bases of the bullets, they are copper coated steel cores, weight is actually about 647. I'm getting more concerned about the cast loads, 50 grains XMP5744 may be too much, still takes up less than half the case! Seems like we were shooting 45 in the Lott though (getting poor accuracy too) before backing off to 35.

Forrest,
Aluminum or silver tip color is supposed to be:

M8 Ball Armor-Piercing Incendiary

According to _The Small Arms Review_-Vol.3 No.6_March, 2000:

" ... the bullet contains the same core as the M2 armor-piercing bullet but the point filler is replaced by an incendiary composition and the bullet also contains a lead antimony base filler. The length of the bullet is 2.31 inches ..."

Any incendiary charge is hidden in the copper jacketed nose of the bullet and would get squashed by the steel core on impact. I guess the lead base filler makes up for the lighter nose pocket?

Let's get lawndart to hit one with a hammer?
Shoot it into a stack of wood and see if a bonfire can be started? Shoot it at a steel plate and see if you get any flash other than the penetration hole? Got your own shooting range?

This used to be a source for milsurp bullets, wonder if it still works:

http://www.hi-techammo.com

M2-AP (Black Tip) (690 grain)
M8-API (Silver Tip) (649 grain)
M17-Tracer (Burgundy Tip)
M20-APIT (Silver/Red Tip)
M1-Incendiary (Blue Tip)

... Says they can't sell Incendiary or Tracer to NY City, California, or Florida, but otherwise they ship to anywhere USA dirt cheap.

My favorite target bullet is the M2 AP Black Tip, 690 grains, $240/1000.

RIP,
You are completelycorrect in the silver tip being API. Having shot thousands of rounds of 50 BMG I have a pretty fair knowledge of the stuff.

Forrest,
The reason you dont see he incindiery compound in the base is that there is a small metal disc between the bottom of the bullet and the compound. If you look at the base of the bullet you will see an appx. 1/8" hole and what appears to be the base of the steel penetrator. It is the metal disc that seperates the compound from the powder in the case. When you fire the round that disc will burst and the compound will ignite.

Be darn careful shooting API rounds since they start fires really well, even in very wet conditions. I have managed to start a few fires myself on tank and mahine gun ranges firing the stuff.

M1Tanker,
Educate me too.
Aren't you referring to APIT with a Tracer component added to the base. That ignites within 100 yards of the muzzle and burns visibly out to about 1500 yards, eh?

Yes, an APIT would be a great fire starter.

I've just got the M2 AP Black Tip 690 grainers, but would like any more information on the API and APIT, as to how they work and what dangers might be involved with them at the local shootin' range.

Maybe some confusion here because the API ammo would have APIT mixed into the belt to provide tracer effect in semi-auto fire. What is the ratio of API's to APIT's that is usually used?
Sumbuddy who know?

RIP,
Thanks for catching me on the API/APIT. I brain cramped and mixed the 2 up. The API will show the base of the penetrator. The APIT will look just the same on the base but will show the steel disc and not the penetrator base.

50 cal ammo that is belted can come in just about any configuration imaginable. The standard load though is a mix of 4:1 (4 ball to 1 tracer, AP, API, APIT, Inc., SLAP, SLAP-T, etc...) But they also come in other mixes and unmixed. It all depends on the mission requirement as to what you will use. But like I sai the standard and most common mix by far is the 4 ball to 1 tracer.

Here is a link to the small arms ammo manual that should answer your questions better than I can.

[URL=http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/TM43-0001-27.pdf#search='army%20ammunition%20TM']Ammo Manual[/URL]

It is a 1994 version and doesnt have all of the current data but it does have most of it. The 50 cal is found in chapter 9.

Forrest,
quickload says
19kpsi, 1600fps...

Monday? Did you say SUNDAY?

jeffe

Ron & Bill, thanks for the enlightenment. Will that stuff hurt my bore? We do have our own range, but there are woods behind the birm, will have to be real careful. Sure didn't know they were incendiary when I bought them.

Jeffe, I can't go Sunday. Is that quickload data for the 50 grains of XMP5744?

Forrest,
All that stuff is harmless to the bore, and some make great target loads for "plinking."

M1Tanker,
Thanks for the link.

Forrest,
I wouldnt worry about it hurting your bore at all. If it were tracer I wouldnt shoot it in my guns due to the chance of leaving the corrosive tracer residue behind. But the incinciery doesnt come into play until impact so it should be just fine. But dont shoot it into tree stumps or the like since it will catch them on fire very easily.

Ron,
That manual gives you the load date for all the military small arms ammo. I found it especially useful for the match ammo data for 308 and 30/06.

After looking around that manual that M1Tanker gave the link to, I noted the SLAP rounds that are 4000 fps with a 350-360 grain tungsten penetrtor that is .30 caliber in a .50 caliber sabot.

This suggests getting some .50cal/.30cal sabots and loading some 200-250 grain .308 caliber bullets in the .500 A2 ...

Maybe 4000 fps with 100 grains of Re-7 ???

This might even be accurate in my 10" twist barrels for the .500A2/.510JAB rifles.

This could open up a new world of versatility for varmint hunting with the .510/.460Wby.

Look out prairie dog towns across the country. The .510 JAB is on the way.

quote:

Ron: After looking around that manual that M1Tanker gave the link to, I noted the SLAP rounds that are 4000 fps with a 350-360 grain tungsten penetrtor that is .30 caliber in a .50 caliber sabot.
This suggests getting some .50cal/.30cal sabots and loading some 200-250 grain .308 caliber bullets in the .500 A2 ...
Maybe 4000 fps with 100 grains of Re-7 ???
This might even be accurate in my 10" twist barrels for the .500A2/.510JAB rifles.
This could open up a new world of versatility for varmint hunting with the .510/.460Wby

Now THIS is a whole new world. Hmmm....!

I have a buddy who pulled the projectiles on some 50 bmg ammo and loaded them back up with 200gr 30 cal bullets using the sabots for muzzle loaders. He shot them out of our tanks M2. It was pretty impressive seeing wha those 200gr bullets did on a 5 gal bucket full of water. It turned it into a huge cloud of mist and the plastic into very tiny pieces. I have no clue water the velocity was but it had to be pushing 4000fps.

H110 50 to 80 grains ???
H4227 60 to 90 grains ???
RL-7 80 to 110 grains ???

Just thinking out loud.

Guess I will have to do some pressure calculations before I try this with a 200 grain .308 bullet in a sabot, aiming for 4000 fps from a 10" twist barrel, .510/460Wby.

Sumbuddy done this before?

Accu-Load, which is notoriously safe/cautious (and lowball on velocities and highball on pressures) predicts for the .500 A-Square:

200 grain bullet plus 38.4 grain sabot:
***************************************
RL-7 ... 91.5 grains >>> 3300 fps/58,100 psi
IMR 4198 ... 91.5 grains >>> 3360 fps/58,100 psi
H4198 ... 90.0 grains >>> 3340 fps/58,100 psi

125 grain bullet plus 38.4 grain sabot:
***************************************
H110 ... 100.2 grains >>> 3820 fps/58,000 psi
H4198 ... 106.4 grains >>> 4150 fps/58,100 psi

These were done for a 27" barrel specified to Accu-Load. A 23" barrel shouldn't lose much velocity as fast as these powders are:
100 grains of magnum-handgun powder (H110) in a rifle case.

And I just happened to find a bag of 300 of these .308/.510 sabots at a shop somewhere along the way, years ago, and they have been lying fallow until now ...

I wonder if there will be any plastic fouling from the ML sabots at these speeds? With ethe higher pressures and the 2X+ velocity. If it works this could make for some fun loads for any big bore with a sabot in that size.

Hog Killer

Hog Killer,
My sabots are not ML sabots. They are a hard blue-gray plastic like nylon or polycarbonate. The bearing surface has polishing marks like some kind of after-mold sizing procedure/machining to give them a uniform 0.510" shank diameter.

The hole in the sabot is 0.300" so I have to pound the bullets in with a hammer and a punch placed in the hole of the hollow point:

200 grain Barnes XBT
125 grain Sierra JHP

The hole in the sabot is deeper (0.810") than the entire 125 grain bullet is long, so it completely engulfs it. The sabot is about 1.032" long.

The 200 grain Barnes XBT has over a half inch of point sticking out of the sabot, so the sabot + bullet is about 1.6" long.

Looks wicked. I only question its accuracy.

No muzzle breaks allowed, of course!!!

Ron, where do you get sabots ?

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Ron, where do you get sabots ?

I found them in "The Reloader's Bench" a unique little shop in Mt. Juliet, TN, a few years ago.
They look to be designed for 50BMG. May be milsurp from SLAP rounds???

I'll look for them. But if anybody wants to call and ask the source before I do:

Jim Duck (no kidding), Manager, or
Larry Hillis, Owner,

615-754-7178

Maybe member sabot knows?

Also, the front half of the sabots is stepped down to 0.500" and the bottom half of the sabot is 0.510" so there is a visible line/step midships. These are "quality items."

Be careful of your backstop.
Left to right: entry, exit, side view. This is a 0.750" (19.05mm) thick x 3" (76.2mm) wide mild steel bar I shot as an interesting experiment. 110 grains RL-15, 611 grain APIT at muzzle velocity of 2250 fps. The bar was about 80 yards from me, standing on its end on the ice of a lake. You can see the deformation to the side and lengthwise. Pretty amazing. Note though, a Caterpillar 14-G grader blade cutting edge, which is also 0.750" (19.05mm) thick, will not be harmed, only the paint will be removed from an area roughly three bullet diameters from center of impact. Same with Caterpillar bulldozer track plates. Make sure you use a D-8 and large plate. They make a mighty clang when hit.

quote:

Originally posted by Nitroman:
Be careful of your backstop ... Make sure you use a D-8 and large plate. They make a mighty clang when hit.

Thank you Nitroman. More good load data. Is the paint removal on the D8 blade from incendiary flash or concussion?

Nitroman
WOW thanks for sharing.

I might try to get some of those AP bullets for my .500 Jeffery.
How do you pull the bullets from the 50 bmg case?

Cheers,

André

quote:

Originally posted by JefferyDenmark:
I might try to get some of those AP bullets for my .500 Jeffery.
How do you pull the bullets from the 50 bmg case?

Cheers,

André

Andre',

They can be bought here aready pulled.

Hog Killer

Thanks

In Denmark they are kind of hard to get but I am working on it.

Cheers,

André

Andre, email me your address and I'll send you a few. fla3006@yahoo.com

Thanks
I look forward to them.
PM and e-mail on the way.

Cheers,

André