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Originally posted by Overkill:
How can people use double rifles when they hunt dangerous game as buffalo.?

You just have 2 shoots with a double rifle. Yes yes you maybe get a little faster 2 nd shoot than with a magazine repeater rifle. But In the magazine rifle you have 3 or 4 shoots. And when you learn to reload it fast then I think that it is a much better choice for DG.

What do you guys think...???

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Well Well, Now! There's a real jewel of wisdom!

I don't think that question deserves an answer, considering the length of time OVERKILL has been reading, and posting of the Bigbore forum. He simply should know by now!

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Originally posted by Overkill:
But what is the biggest caliber that is possible in a double rifle??? I think it is a .700 Nitro Express from H&H and will cost you your hole life...! And I dont think that you can load it to more than 2000 fps with a 1000 grainer. but with a bolt action in caliber .700 BMG IMPROVED you can go to 1200 grainers at 2600-2700 fps with 3 rounds in the magazine.

But sure a double in caliber .600 NE will be effective if you can fire a very fast second shoot.

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Overkill, Overkill, you seem to be of the mistaken opinion that BIGGER IS BETTER, and FASTER is desirable! A lot of young men are steeped in this misconception, about many things that have nothing to do with dangerous game! Like most things size doesn't matter as much as what you can do with it!
First off the 600NE, and 700NE, are as useless as the tits on a bore hog, and are nothing but rich man's toys, and the 460 WBY is close behind those two,IMO! A little 9.5, or 10 lb 450/400 3" double rifle, pushing a 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps is all the power you need to stop anything liveing in a charge! The thing is, a 700NE will be the same as a single shot,or your bolt rifle, even in a double rifle, simply because it produces so much recoil, and the rifles are so heavy that you will not get a second shot in a close charge. It the first one does not do the job, the war is over, YOU LOOSE!

A well ballanced cartridge for a DGR is a 400 gr bullet or up to a 750 gr in a 577NE at most, and a speed of 2000 for the 577, to 2550 fps for something like the 375 H&H flanged is all that is needed. Tests have been done that prove pushing solids past 2550 fps, actually deter pennitration.

Those three rounds in a 700NE bolt rifle may as well be in your pocket, as in the magazine, because you wont get to shoot them. I would rather have a well fit 375 H&H Bolt rifle, than any 700NE, in a close encounter. A cannon is no better than .22 hornet if it doesn't hit the brain, or spine in a close charge. CLOSE is what makes game animals dangerous, not mean, or size!

Sure you can stand off 100 yds from a lion, and slap him with your 460,then slap him again, and again! When you don't kill him, and he gets in the tall grass, he has just become dangerous. From this point on, I sure as hell do not want a 460 WBY bolt rifle, and certainly not a 600NE, or 700NE even in a double rifle, Of the rifles I own, my choice here would be a 500/450NE Westley Richards double rifle, loaded with two 480 gr soft points, and two more between the first, and second, and second, and third fingers of my left hand!

[ 09-24-2002, 16:19: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

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Originally posted by Overkill:
But what is the biggest caliber that is possible in a double rifle???

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When you realize a Lion can make 50 YDS in less than 4 seconds

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WAY less.
A bear does the 100 in 6 seconds.

John Linebaugh had an excellent test. He put a ballon on a remote control race car, and has you try and hit the ballon as the car comes at you, at way slower then a lion.

My guess for a lion would be a bit less then 2 seconds to cover 50 yards.

While I have never watched a lion attack outside of a zoo, I did see a lion, about 600 pounds, kill and chomp a sea gull, flying into his area.

With about a 12 foot fence(which I'm sure he could clear if he wanted) the male lion covered about 20 yards in less time then you could make a move. From the time he started his move, I tried to take a picture, and never got close to getting the camera pointed at him, much less a rifle.
All you saw was a big snap-chomp, and a bunch of feathers floating around.

They are big cats. I suggest you get a little one, and get some idea of how quickly they move, and cover distance, from cover.

Suffice to say, you would get one shot off, if the cat was coming at you from 50 yards. The depressing part is someone had an article about shooting a lion at about 100 yards, IIRC. Seems he hit the cat, pissed him off, and he charged. The guy hit him again, in the heart, with a 375 H&H, and the heart was gone. This did not stop the cat from covering the last 50 yards, and burying his claws in the guys back, and biting him as well, as he finally died.

Buffalo are LESS vulnerable, pro-create in massive numbers, and take much more damage.

I'm glad elephants don't decide to hunt us.

It would be much like the story in Jurassic Park, you would stalk the one in front, while the other comes up and stomps you from behind, or the side.

I think old bull buff have been known to do such things, in their favorite thorn bushes.

Overkill, the only gun for you is a Two bore.
Nothing like a 3550 grain solid lead ball to cut a 5 inch hole in what every is coming at you.

I've often wondered if a lead hollowpoint, say in the 6000 grain category, out of a 2 bore, might not be the ultimate stopper???


s

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Originally posted by Overkill:
[QB]But what is the biggest caliber that is possible in a double rifle??? I think it is a .700 Nitro Express from H&H and will cost you your hole life...! And I dont think that you can load it to more than 2000 fps with a 1000 grainer. but with a bolt action in caliber .700 BMG IMPROVED you can go to 1200 grainers at 2600-2700 fps with 3 rounds in the magazine.

QB]

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Overkill;
Take your tongue off your cheek before you bite it off. How would your wife like that?

I have an old English Gun catalog around here somewhere that relates the story of a gent in India doubling an 8 Bore. Seems he was shooting a Rhino when the gun doubled, knocking the Rhino over and knocking him into a thorn bush behind him. The rifle flew over his head. His gunbearer, he was English you know, picked up the gun and reloaded it. He pushed it back at our tyro just as he was extracting himself from the bush. At this time the Rhino, 25 feet away, also stood back up. The dilema to our friend was this, does he shoot the Rhino again with the probability that it will again double or just let the rhino run over his ass? He never had to decide as the Rhino then fell back over dead.

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Originally posted by Roger:
This is from MacD37's post.

The interesting part for me was; 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps is all the power you need to stop anything liveing in a charge!

Roger QSL

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Roger, you wouldn't be trying to get a 700 post debate going again on the lever/wildcat thing, would you? The question here was "HOW CAN PEOPLE USE A DUBLE RIFLE FOR DGR?" And his reasoning is you can only get 2000fps from a 700 NE in a double rifle, with a 1000 gr bullet!

The phrase, clipped from my post, above is actually out of context, when you read the whole post, but you are right, if the proper bullets were used, in your 450 Alaskan, and shots taken in the context I use for the 450/400 3". The phrase you neglected to quote, however, is:

"Acannon is no better than a .22 hornet, if it doesn't hit the BRAIN , or SPINE in a close charge." And one shot is all you will get with your bolt, lever, or single shot. This also includes the 600, and 700 NE in doubles, because of the weight, and recoil, but in normal loads in a normal sized double rifle, you will get two shots. If the first shot doesn't do it, the double is the only rifle that will give that second shot, in a close charge.

One other thing you don't bring to light is, there is a big difference between a .458 400 gr bullet, and a .411 400 gr bullet, both at the same speed, where pennetration is concerened. Why I bring this up is, the 450/400 3"/400 gr bullet,@ 2150, is less likely to cause a charge in the first place than a .458/400 gr bullet @ 2150, simply because of the very effecient pennetration of the .411/400 gr.over the .458 @ the same speed. The .458 dia rifles use a minimum of 480 gr bullets @ 2150, which will pennetrate far better than a .458/400 gr bullet @ 2150.

My objections here are not what you think,though it may seem contradictory on the surface, it is not. It is simply that I think anything with more recoil than a 577NE 700 gr bullet at 2000 fps is useless in a CLOSE charge, and that includes the ill concieved 460 WBY, in a desperately close charge is useless, "IF" the first shot doesn't do the trick. When you get a charge where stopping is paramount, the target will be closeing on you from "FEET", not yards, and your lever will be no better than a bolt, or single shot, because you will not get the second shot before he is on you. This includes the 600NE, and 700NE in a double as well. As far as your CARTRIDGE is concerened (450 Alaskan, if one shot will do it, then it would be as good as anything else in the last few feet of the charge, but if it were in a double it would be twice as good as any cartridge in any other type of rifle, because you would get two shots, anything else is going to get you "ONE"!

Just one short thing on the Lever/45-70 thing, my objection to this combination is not the lever rifle, nor the 45-70, but the combination of the two. The 45-70 is not well suited to the general hunting of dangerous game,and is likely to wound, causeing the need for a REAL DGR, and that fact is why I'm not in favor of the lever action, as offered today. Anyone can build a wildcat, in a custom rifle, that will do anything, but the production lever action is not produced factory chambered for anything that comes close to being a real DGR. The 450 Alaskan in a strong lever, or a good double useing 480 gr bullets, at 2150 would qualify, with flying colors, but how does anyone make the jump that a 450 Alaskan, somehow makes the 45-70 an effecient DG chambering? I have a double rifle chambered for 458 RCBS, which will eat a 45-70 alive, but it has the powder capacity
of 100.13 of water, and the 45-70 has only 75.51 grs water. Your 450 Alaskan has 97.09 grs capacity, which puts your 450 Alaskan a lot closer to the 458 RCBS, than the puny little 45-70. Both the 458 RCBS, and the 450 Alaskan,have the capacity, and can handle 480 gr bullets, the 45-70 cannot, effeciently, with it's ememic little 75.51 gr capacity.

ButTTTTTTTtttt, To answer OVERKILL's question again, When it comes to dangerous game, nothing wiil beat a double rifle, regardless of power, or magazine capacity! Game only becomes DANGEROUS, when it gets close, and here magazine capacity is only ballast to make your bolt, or lever heavier!and does little more than soak up some of the recoil!

[ 09-27-2002, 02:34: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

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Originally posted by eldeguello:
. Roosevelt thought a .405 Win. firing 300 grain bullets was a dangerous game rifle, and this slug has a pretty poor S.D.!!

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TR wounded a lot of animals with the 405 Win in an 1895 rifle! On his 1906 Safari he quickly found the 405 lacking, and all the real DG other than leopard, and a couple lions were taken with two double rifles. One was an H&H 500/450NE 3.25", and the other a 500/465NE. Hundreds of head of meat game, and plains game were taken with the 95 Win 405, however!

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
Roger,
The post was not even directed at you..It was as Mac indicated a post referring to the LAFs changing the subject to once again try and prove the LA as a dangerous game round, which I have never denied in the first place, just won't use one on DG...

I have owned a 450 Alaskan, I now own a 30-30, 25-35 both M-94 Win.; a 308 and 250 Sav. in a M-99...Now that indicates that I am definately a LAF..I hunt deer behind my house every year with a 25-35 as I have stated many times...

Sorry if you feel ofended as that was not my intent, my intent was to bring to the attention of some that they need not change the subject to Lever actions on every thread in this forum, not telling them they cannot, just suggesting it...

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