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Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

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According to that, a fully loaded 375 H&H gives up nothing to a 375 Ruger loaded within SAAMI specifications!

But those figures were using different pressures, it doesn't matter who runs a test. The physics of the matter is simple. The Ruger has about 5.5 grains more capacity, around 6%. When pressure, barrel smoothness, fit , and length are equal (they never are, though, every barrel/bullet fit is unique) the Ruger will have a 25-50 fps advantage. That is just too small to notice without excellent equipment and the proverbial equivalent barrels.

Those figures were using the same pressure, see below. "Doesn't matter who does the test"? Those are SAAMI figures and SAAMI sets the industry standard! "Too small to notice without excellent equipment" - Are you saying SAAMI doesn't have "excellent equipment"?

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page 11 of "VELOCITY AND PIEZOELECTRIC TRANSDUCER PRESSURE: CENTERFIRE RIFLE" dated 01/11/2013: For both cartridges - Max Avg Pressure=62.0 Kpsi, Max Probable Lot Mean=63.6 Kpsi, Max Probable Sample Mean=66.0 Kpsi

375 Ruger - 270gr, 2840 fps

375 H&H - 270gr, 2680/2850 fps

375 Ruger - 300gr, 2660 fps

375 H&H - 300gr, 2515/2680 fps

[/QUOTE]Well, with physics one gets what one pays for. The 375 Ruger is a very well designed round that lets one carry a lighter rifle all day long for the same bang as the H&H. There is a negligible additional jump to recoil with the smaller, lighter rifle. No one will notice that while hunting, and a heavy shirt or shoulder pad on a bench will take care of anything for testing and load development. I'll take the lighter rifle, any day...[/QUOTE]Regarding claims of weight savings between standard length and magnum length actions lets consider a few things.

First, for many years manufacturers used the same actions for both types of cartridges. FN. Winchester, and Whitworth are just a few that come to mind and many .375 H&H rifles are still being built that way today. There is no significant weight difference between the standard and magnum models of those because they used the same action for both.

Second, there IS a weight savings between a magnum length action and a standard action. But, if the actions are otherwise the same, the amount of weight saved by cutting a 1/4" slice out of the middle of the action is insignificant. This is especially so when you consider that the few ounces we are talking about is right at the center of gravity or balance point of the rifle. However, the true magnum actions are not like standard actions. True magnum actions are larger and more robust. Those are good qualities you should want in an action for any of the big cartridges, including the fat 375 Ruger.

Third, much of the lightness in the new Ruger rifles is due to use of short barrels and, in some cases, stocks made proportional to those short barrels. The Hawkeye African has a 23" barrel. The Guide Gun has a 20" barrel and a shortened forend. A 375 H&H rifle could be made to those same dimensions and it would be about as light as, and perform just as well as, the corresponding Hawkeye rifle. And give you an extra round to boot.

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Originally posted by 458Win:

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Originally posted by Grenadier:
And so the MYTH persists! The difference is much less than that and seating of bullets almost negates it.

speaking of myths, a bullets seated to the same depth in a 375 H&H takes up the same amount of space as it does in the 375 Ruger case, and as was pointed out, the Ruger is a larger case.

if the bullet has a groove, and is set to the grove in both cases, the volume consumed by the bullet is identical.

the "fact" is the ruger is nearly the same capacity as a 375 WEATHERBY.

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the "fact" is the ruger is nearly the same capacity as a 375 WEATHERBY.

Is that kind of like the 45-70 is almost as good as a 458 Winchester Magnum?

Well, maybe we can compare bullet to same bullet. See below.

First, it seems that there are questions on the 'fine print' when comparing apples to oranges.

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2680/2850 fps

Note that the H&H has TWO velocities. The Ruger was only listed with one (2840). The only thing that a 10fps difference testifies to is the velocity of the particular barrels used in the test. If the H&H and Ruger were actually equal in pressure, then the Ruger was a "slow" barrel in comparison to the H&H. (Run the tests with 20, 50, or 100 barrels, same powder, etc., and the round with the larger capacity will average a higher velocity with equivalent pressure. That's physics and there isn't really any point in arguing against it.)

Now to bullets. Jeffeoso is correct on the bullets. Same nose protrusion means same internal displacement. Period. His comment on the Weatherby is also correct, in context. The Ruger is closer to the 375Weatherby than to the H&H, sitting about two-thirds of the way from the H&H capacity to the Weatherby capacity. That is a simple measurement, although actual figures will vary depending on case brand and batch. And if people are arguing that the 5 grain difference between the Ruger and H&H is insignificant, then surely the 2.5 grain difference to the Weatherby is even less significant.

With bullets it's relatively easy to list nose lengths for bullets that have crimping grooves or published figures. For example, GSCustom lists a .67" nose projection for the 200grain, 250 grain and 265 grains bullets in .375". All three of those will easily fit in a 375 Ruger magazine of 3.4" inches and all three are very stable in a 12" twist.

The COL of those bullets would be 2.58+.67= 3.25" Nothing is gained by putting the same bullets in a 375H&H. The protrusion into the capacity will be identical.

Going to the 300grain GSC HV, we have a .75" nose protrusion which results in a 3.330" COL, again within the standard 3.4" magazine. The Ruger will be very stable and will handle that bullet equally with an H&H, as long as both have a 12" twist. GSC bullets can also be seated against the lands for extra potential.

Now there is something to be said if someone wants to design an extreme long-range hunting round, but neither the 375H&H nor the 375Ruger qualify as such animals. They are both relatively flat all purpose hunting rounds. One way that a round can get a long-range advantage to the figures above is by having a freebore and by seating a bullet out farther. There are rounds that are designed to do that very thing. For example, the 338 Norma Magnum uses a relatively shorter case in comparison to the 338 Lapua because it is assumed that long-range bullets will be used. So a magnum length magazine is used in that rifle in order to allow extra long bullets with very high BCs. The 6.5 Creedmore is another round that uses a relatively short case that is intended to be matched with long bullets. Since the H&H is not such a design, it is not really appropriate to this thread. Someone who wants such a round in a .375" can consider a Snipe-Tac, or 378Weatherby, or a more modest 375RUM, all with magazines as long as practical. For that matter, the 375 Ruger could be tweaked for longer-range bullets with a 3.6" magzaine, but that would give up some of its light-weight rifle advantage.

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Originally posted by jeffeosso:

if the bullet has a groove, and is set to the grove in both cases, the volume consumed by the bullet is identical.

Jeff - You are correct. You missed what I said to Phil about getting caught up in the article (I was sleepy) and the correction I posted, "And so the MYTH persists! The difference is much less than that and seating of bullets almost negates it."

I also pointed out the myth I was referring to was the myth claiming there is a big difference in case capacities. If you look at Nosler's data you will see that capacity of the 375 Ruger with the 260gr bullet is 85.5 grains water while the 375 H&H is 83.4 grains water. Capacity of the 375 Ruger with the 300gr bullet is 80.7 grains water while the 375 H&H is 78.5 grains water It is nothing like the big difference people make it out to be. It is only a 2.5% difference.

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...the "fact" is the ruger is nearly the same capacity as a 375 WEATHERBY.

Another myth to perpetuate. If memory serves me, the 375 Weatherby has a case capacity about 5% greater than the .375 H&H so that would put the 375 Ruger case capacity right between those. If one is to claim a big difference in case capacity of the 375 Ruger over the 375 H&H then one must be willing to claim just as big a difference between the 375 Weatherby over the 375 Ruger. A 2.5% difference in case capacity cannot be a big difference in the one case while it is "nearly the same" capacity in the other case.

I am not claiming the 375 H&H does not have slightly less case capacity and I am not claiming the 375 Ruger does not produce a slightly higher velocity. I am only pointing out how slight, and unimportant, the differences are. In my estimation, it is not enough of a difference to justify one cartridge over the other.

416Tanzan - the SAAMI numbers I quoted are STANDARDS and not tests. The .458 Winchester also has two standard velocities listed.

Why do we keep hearing differences in case capacities that are greater than really exist? Even the "internet authority" Wikipedia gives us numbers that show the 375 Ruger is between the 375 H&H and 375 Weatherby. In fact they show the 375 Ruger closer to the 375 H&H than it is to the 375 Weatherby:

375 H&H = 95.3 gr
375 Ruger = 99 gr
375 Weatherby = 105 gr

If the SAAMI quotes are standards and not tests, then they represent different pressures or different powder calculations, despite whatever ceiling figures are quoted.

On capacity, I use the AmmoGuide stats so as to have a single relative standard.

Get whichever cartridge you desire. I'm sure you will equally happy with either, but if going to Africa there is a chance of lost luggage..It happened to me where only my rifle made it to camp. The PH had 375 cartridges in camp so no lost days..Speed kills, but accuracy trumps speed.

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But those figures were using different pressures, it doesn't matter who runs a test. The physics of the matter is simple. The Ruger has about 5.5 grains more capacity, around 6%. When pressure, barrel smoothness, fit , and length are equal (they never are, though, every barrel/bullet fit is unique) the Ruger will have a 25-50 fps advantage. That is just too small to notice without excellent equipment and the proverbial equivalent barrels.

End of story....PERIOD.

There is no functional performance difference between a .375R and a .375H&H. Get the rifle that appeals to you.

I would take the Ruger over the H and H. With the Ruger we have two manufacturers working together to build a rifle,cartridge,reloading components and equipment for it.

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Originally posted by shootaway:
With the Ruger we have two manufacturers working together to build a rifle,cartridge,reloading components and equipment for it.

What two manufacturers pray tell?

Hornady and Ruger.

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Originally posted by surestrike:


There is no functional performance difference between a .375R and a .375H&H. Get the rifle that appeals to you.

Surestrike, quit trying to offer practical advice as it puts a damper on all the ballistic masturbation.

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Originally posted by Grumulkin:

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Originally posted by shootaway:
With the Ruger we have two manufacturers working together to build a rifle,cartridge,reloading components and equipment for it.

What two manufacturers pray tell?

hornady and ruger --

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Originally posted by shootaway:
I would take the Ruger over the H and H. With the Ruger we have two manufacturers working together to build a rifle,cartridge,reloading components and equipment for it.

That makes a LOT of sense. Too bad no manufacturers are working to make 375 H&H rifles, ammo, reloading components, and equipment available. Guess that explains why you can't find anything 375H&H anywhere. Sheesh !

ROTFL

My $.02? I don't pretend to know a lot about the comparitive ballistics between the two. I know the 375 H&H has been around long enough to prove it's effectiveness. For me, I enjoy the romance of carrying that traditional African caliber. Old school. No more, no less.

I have them both. The Ruger carries better and is very accurate. But I love my win. M70 in .375 so I'm no help. Several friends have borrowed rifles from me. I give them their choice. Last year he selected the Win. 375 H&H. This year another friend is taking the Ruger, he loves it and has offered to buy it.
Again, no help. Buy the one that feels best to you. To me the only valid concern is ammo and a lost weapon, but in 11 trips over, I have never lost anything.

The .375 H&H has a proven track record, and ammo can be found almost anywhere. To me the .375 Ruger is a case of re-inventing the wheel.

Pick whichever you like and if it turns out you don't like it as much as you thought, buy the other.

It may surprise some, but even though I really like the cartridge, I am not a champion of the .375 H&H. What I take issue with is the concept that the 375 Ruger is any better.

I think, as most have said, that you should decide using the merits of the rifle and not the cartridge as the basis. Performance between the cartridges is nearly the same and both cartridges will do what you want.

.......now that the dust has settled a bit...........if you think you really might want something a bit more powerful than the 375 H&H.......then GET A 375 H&H. If and when you want a significant boost over that rifle all you need do is have it rechambered for 375 Weatherby. A rifle in 375 Ruger won't give you that option..... but, shhh......I don't want to stir up any more dust.

i have seen in alot of threads people always worried about losing there ammo and not being able to find certain calibers in africa. isn't there a way to ship your ammo well in advance of your hunt to your ph,so there wouldn't be a problem?

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Originally posted by Tanoose:
i have seen in alot of threads people always worried about losing there ammo and not being able to find certain calibers in africa. isn't there a way to ship your ammo well in advance of your hunt to your ph,so there wouldn't be a problem?

they may loose too your luggage etc. ...

i ve seen a lot of hunters in town where the luggage ammo didnt make the connection and there is always a way to do your hunt maybe not the way you plan but that is part of adventure, no?

375 H&H and never look back......

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.......now that the dust has settled a bit...........if you think you really might want something a bit more powerful than the 375 H&H.......then GET A 375 H&H. If and when you want a significant boost over that rifle all you need do is have it rechambered for 375 Weatherby. A rifle in 375 Ruger won't give you that option..... but, shhh......I don't want to stir up any more dust.

Apparently nothing was learned in the ballistics discussion earlier. Just how is a 2.5 grain increase in capacity from a 375Ruger to a 375Weatherby able to produce any "significant boost" difference? The math produces ... drumroll ... an eightteen-fps increase, being generous! 18 fps! Silly is as silly does.

Now the idea of wanting "more than a 375" is always an idea to consider, but it has nothing to contribute to a discussion of a 375H&H and a 375Ruger. If a person wants more in a lightweight package, then the obvious choice is a 416Ruger . On the other hand, if someone is willing to carry a more robust and heavier rifle, then some obvious choices are a 458Lott , the even more powerful 450Rigby (capacity = 460Weatherby), or perhaps a more all-around, flatter-shooting rifle in 416Rigby , handloaded to 6000ftlb levels. Those "over-40" calibres are all "more" and highly regarded. If one wanted something more in 375 then they should at least get a 150-300fps advantage over the H&H, meaning a 375RUM or 378Weatherby. (Of course, traditional African advice is that a person is better off with a bigger, heavier bullet, rather than a faster bullet, if one already has capabilities of 2600-2900fps.)

But when talking about a 375H&H vs. a 375Ruger, the decision will revolve around the rifle platform, carry-ability, cost, quality, and perhaps factory ammo availability vs. bullet choices.

Find an airline that follows the TSA rules that allow ammunition to be packed in the rifle case. Put a box or two in the rifle case and a box or two in checked luggage. There is officially an 11lb limit, but I've never been weighed, and if two people travel together there is a 22lb limit, etc. 11lbs is slightly more than 100 rounds of 375H&H, depending on bullets selected, and a couple more of 375Ruger.

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Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
On the other hand, if someone is willing to carry a more robust and heavier rifle, then some obvious choices are a 458Lott , the even more powerful 450Rigby (capacity = 460Weatherby), or perhaps a more all-around, flatter-shooting rifle in 416Rigby , handloaded to 6000ftlb levels. Those "over-40" calibres are all "more" and highly regarded. If one wanted something more in 375 then they should at least get a 150-300fps advantage over the H&H, meaning a 375RUM or 378Weatherby. (Of course, traditional African advice is that a person is better off with a bigger, heavier bullet, rather than a faster bullet, if one already has capabilities of 2600-2900fps.)

You forgot the 416 Weatherby.

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Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Find an airline that follows the TSA rules that allow ammunition to be packed in the rifle case. Put a box or two in the rifle case and a box or two in checked luggage. There is officially an 11lb limit, but I've never been weighed, and if two people travel together there is a 22lb limit, etc. 11lbs is slightly more than 100 rounds of 375H&H, depending on bullets selected, and a couple more of 375Ruger.

I believe there are at least a couple of flaws here. On a trip, one could easily fly on one airline that allowed ammunition in a rifle case and then have to to fly on another airline that didn't allow it. I believe there could be some friction on some airlines if you were traveling with ammunition and not firearms but I've never tried it so maybe it would work. Lastly, Air France weighed my ammunition.

In the meantime I'm resting easily knowing that at least 6 manufacturers are busy turning out components, dies, presses and guns for my 378 Weatherby. That would be Weatherby, Norma, Federal, RCBS, Redding and Hodgdon for those who want to know. If there are others, please excuse the omission; it wasn't intentional.

My two most favorite companies joining forces and coming out with a solid chambering and rifle combo.They are not my two most favorite for nothing.

While considering answers from the head and heart to a question that has no answer I would offer-----It also might be a factor of the shooters age. To the older there is a mystique connected to the H&H and to the younger there is a draw to the new and innovative.

Does that mean shootaway is younger?

Not offering this as a definitive reason for ones decision, just another factor. I do know that too much WD-40 could have softened ones wood.

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I believe there could be some friction on some airlines if you were traveling with ammunition and not firearms but I've never tried it so maybe it would work.

I've done it a few times with no problem.

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Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I believe there could be some friction on some airlines if you were traveling with ammunition and not firearms but I've never tried it so maybe it would work. Lastly, Air France weighed my ammunition.

http://www.united.com/web/en-U.../baggage/sports.aspx
well, no -- they don't mind -- declare the ammunition and meet packing requirements - the end

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No more than 11 pounds of ammunition may be carried. The ammunition may be packed in the same container as the firearm or in a separate container.

quoted from United, the largest US carrier - i don't care to bother to look up others..

most people I know, when traveling to africa, put ammo in the case and in their baggage -- hard to be without ammo....

and, of course, there's very little whizbang ammo, including weatherby, anywhere outside of the US .

You people are not helping; I am holding a LH .532 boltface M70 Classic. Do I not turn it into an H&H or should it become the Ruger? Or the H&H? Or,...?

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Originally posted by bluefish:
You people are not helping; I am holding a LH .532 boltface M70 Classic. Do I not turn it into an H&H or should it become the Ruger? Or the H&H? Or,...?

That is a good question. I assume that the magazine well will hold a 3.6" box.

What is its current chambering and why not keep it? Does it need a new barrel?

If I held an M70 .375" I would rechamber to .375RUM as the least expensive option.
If it is a .338", I might have the boltface opened up and the barrel rechambered to .338 Lapua. But a 338WM is already a classic elk round.

Otherwise, you could rebarrel to any calibre that you desire, including having the boltface opened up to .590" for the bigger dangerous game rounds.

Since you're a lefty, I would also pick up one of those CDNN .375 Ruger Alaskans for $600! cdnnsports.com search for "375 Ruger".

Bluefish you could sell the M70 action and pick up one of these http://www.cdnnsports.com/375r...53.html#.VTFNivnF8pk

By the time you built one on the action you would have spent well over the price of one of these Rugers. Of course you would have a nice rifle built to your exact requirements.

ive made the mistake of selling m70s before. the only thing I might be persuaded to do is trade it for a LH .473 bolt face rifle.

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But back to the 375 Ruger, there are a number of PH's and wildlife biologists across Africa that are now using it by choice and ammo is becoming more available as well

Phil: Where in Zimbabwe is either 375 or 416 Ruger ammunition available? I have heard that it is available in Johannesburg but not outside of South Africa. I have a 416 Ruger Alaskan that I have used in Zim but I knew I was dead in the water if the airlines lost my ammo. I have also been told that Hornady was making a marketing effort in Africa but I have seen no results of this alleged effort. Not trying to be argumentative but where has anyone seen either 416 or 375 Ruger ammo in Africa?

I think its a mistake to count on finding any ammno in Africa if yours is lost. Finding a good doctor or medical supplies should be a greater concern.

J: I beg to differ. When SAA lost my rifle and ammo flying from Joburg to Victory Falls, I was able to locate 375 H&H, 416 Rem and 458 Win ammo. In the more common cartridges, your PH can usually locate something to shoot. Not so with the Ruger chamberings.

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SAA lost my rifle and ammo

Bummer, on losing a rifle.

The operating word is "rifle". That means using a loaner rifle, whatever rifle is available.

I like using my own rifle and my own handloads. We all do. It's all part of the hunt.
And I've used also sorts of loaners, too, for various reasons.

Tanzan: You miss my point. If you loose your ammo but not your rifle in a more common caliber you can still use your rifle with much more expensive locally acquired ammo. Loose either a 375/416 Ruger rifle or ammo and you are going to need a loaner. What shop in Tanzania carries ammo for your 416 Ruger? I bet you could find 416 Rigby ammo for your CZ. Don't get me wrong, I definitly prefer my Ruger Alaskan but ammo is still an issue in Africa.