I have a 30-06 in the Classic and I am very happy with it. Now I want a .375 H&H. I see ads for the Classic which I assume is a late model New Haven gun at about $1300 to $1900. I believe the new Model 70 will be less than that. Should I pay more for a Classic than a new one? Which one is better and why?
A pre '64 will run about $4,000. Is there a good reason to spend that much money in terms of function as opposed to collectability?

the new 375HH winchesters will be out over the next couple months.. or weeks, even..

they are built on NEW machines, in a new plant, without some headaches associated with some labor issues to FORCE high quality.

i would wait for a new one, not the old one .. from the QC problem prone builds...

no way in @#$@#$@ would *I* buy a pre-64 for the same or more money than a new one -- but thats me. The new classic (from the old plant) was a good action .. the newer winnies are NICE, and I can't imagine the 375HH being any worse.

Jeff:

I agree with most of what you are saying. I am selling off my Win 375 H&H Safari Classic to fund my Double Rifle. I would say this rifle is a good one. A late model Safari classic with a smooth action. I think that getting a rifle that shoots well for a fair price is the best way to go. I have priced my rifle with scope much closer to what a new one would cost. I think a lot of people are over pricing their older guns to take advantage of the lack of supply.However, anytime you manufacture a new product there are bound to be issues. If your breaking rocks with your new big bore no worries but for a DGR I want a 100% reliable tried and true gun. I'm sure the new winchesters are great I just would want to see how say the first 500 guns shoot before I'd bet my bacon on one. Just like the the RSM's I think their pretty much good to go out of the box at least the ones I own.

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
I have a 30-06 in the Classic and I am very happy with it. Now I want a .375 H&H. I see ads for the Classic which I assume is a late model New Haven gun at about $1300 to $1900. I believe the new Model 70 will be less than that. Should I pay more for a Classic than a new one? Which one is better and why?
A pre '64 will run about $4,000. Is there a good reason to spend that much money in terms of function as opposed to collectability?

Look for "pre-salt wood" made for Browing FN Mauser. I bought ca. 1963 long extractor .300h&H with 2-7x Browning marked scope (made by
Redfield) for $1100. No more will ever be made as last ones (BMS guns probably Browning Dumolins) made on custom bases in early 90s were very expensive. I would take that 300H&H over any
std or supergrade bolt gun Winchester ever made.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the new 375HH winchesters will be out over the next couple months.. or weeks, even..they are built on NEW machines, in a new plant, without some headaches associated with some labor issues to FORCE high quality. i would wait for a new one, not the old one ..

+1

After reading this post I decided to take a trip at lunch today to our local wholesales sports warehouse to seen a NEW Winchester first hand. On a positive note it did resemble a Mod 70 or at least that was stamped on the barrel. The sample in 300 wm that I examined was very disappointing. The wood was a piece of cheap hardwood with a brown stain applied. The checking was pressed into the wood. It had a painted black aluminum trigger guard that was oversized and already had a large scratch in its paint from in store handling. I could see the trigger spring sticking out of the oversized trigger hole just prime for getting something wedged into it in the field at the worst possible moment. All in all I was very much underwhelmed when I compared it to my 375 H&H.

Brad

I thought everyone was raving about the new
Mod 70's and that they were so much better than
the old one's.

Maybe the first one's that came out were really good but standards have slipped.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the new 375HH winchesters will be out over the next couple months.. or weeks, even.

They are out now. I have had one in the classifieds for a few days already.

quote:

Originally posted by Paolo9,5x73:

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
I have a 30-06 in the Classic and I am very happy with it. Now I want a .375 H&H. I see ads for the Classic which I assume is a late model New Haven gun at about $1300 to $1900. I believe the new Model 70 will be less than that. Should I pay more for a Classic than a new one? Which one is better and why?
A pre '64 will run about $4,000. Is there a good reason to spend that much money in terms of function as opposed to collectability?

Look for "pre-salt wood" made for Browing FN Mauser. I bought ca. 1963 long extractor .300h&H with 2-7x Browning marked scope (made by
Redfield) for $1100. No more will ever be made as last ones (BMS guns probably Browning Dumolins) made on custom bases in early 90s were very expensive. I would take that 300H&H over any
std or supergrade bolt gun Winchester ever made.

Hawgwash, I have had FN Brownings in .30-06 (2), .375H&H and now a .458WM, all early '60s and I carried mine as "work" rifles in BC and Alberta when working remote fire lookouts in Grizzly country. These ARE nice rifles with various issues.

I have also had four P-64 .300H&Hs, five P-64 .375H&Hs and 31 other P-64s and used them extensively in the same work. I have, do and will take a P-64 .300 or .375 H&H over ANY rifle Browning ever made, over my Dakota 76 or anything else except my Brno ZG-47 original in 9.3x62 or my original Oberndorf Type B, also in 9.3x62 for regular use in BC-Alberta-Yukon-NWT longterm bush conditions.

My "last" working Grizzly gun is a 20" tubed P-64 .375, Recknagels, Leupy QRWs, Leupy 2.5CMHD scope and Micky MC pattern P-64 stock...shoots sub-moa with 300 NPs and feeds nicer than any FN I have owned (several) or shot(dozens).

My favourite "old" Mod. 70 Alaskan .338WM is as smooth as my Dakota and my original minty Mannlicher-Schoenauer and puts 250NPs at 2800 into "bugholes". The Brownings, FNs and Dumoulins, I have had and do have them all, WERE fine rifles, but, no better than P-64s and they were 3+1, not 4+1, which I prefer.

Plus, my P-64 .300 H&H has a 26" barrel, which is what the old "Super 30" is supposed to have!!!

What we really need is a side by side tear down of a New Haven and SC 375 H&H with some nice photo's. I'd really like to see one up close. The closest I've seen is a new 300wm. Harms any chance you might post some photos for us? I still think a American made CRF 375 H&H for $1000 is a great bargin.
I just don't know if the new ones are better?

Brad

My Carolina made M-70 featherweight in .270 is the finest M-70 I've ever owned. Not only looks nice but functions flawlessly!

If I wanted a M-70 African or Express, I'd not hesitate to buy a Carolina made rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
The sample in 300 wm that I examined was very disappointing. The wood was a piece of cheap hardwood with a brown stain applied. The checking was pressed into the wood. It had a painted black aluminum trigger guard that was oversized and already had a large scratch in its paint from in store handling. I could see the trigger spring sticking out of the oversized trigger hole just prime for getting something wedged into it in the field at the worst possible moment. All in all I was very much underwhelmed when I compared it to my 375 H&H.

Brad

This description doesn't even come close to my experience with the new M-70 made in the Carolinas....Yes, I've only seen about a dozen or maybe a few less....so obviously there could be some losers out there.....

I must also say that every new M-70 I've seen is a featherweight.....You didn't say what model you saw.....

Don't get me wrong....I'm not saying your description is in error.....just that the ones I've seen was quite well done.

If I ordered one and it came as you described....I'd return it pronto!

I have to agree with Vapo , I bought a new Carolina featherwt 3006 a while back and it is fantastic. Beautiful walnut stock, smooth perfect trigger and very accurate . I have had 7 model 70s in different calibers over the past 29 years and this one is outstanding. But like all things manufactured you could get one made at 4:30 pm friday afternoon.

My camera is on the blink right now or I would put some pics on. I have owned at least 20 (probably more like 35) Winchester classics in 375 and this one beats all of them. The trigger IMO is way better than the old ones. It is hard to compare too much without shooting it but fit and finish is better than the last of the New Haven guns. The action is smoother as well and it hasn't even been broken in yet. I would be keeping it had I not had some unexpected bills come up.

Kind of off topic but one of those 375 classics had a 16" barrel and even though it wasn't chambered for the new "King" of 375's it managed to kill a moose and a couple caribou last year.

I had a chance to examine two of the new 70's at a local shop recently, and I'd have to say that Brad's unflattering description is right on the money. I went in expecting to buy one of them, and took maybe 30 seconds to change my mind. The triggers were pretty good, but fit and finish were horrible.

The last few years of the New Haven guns were not good. Tended to be a lot of finish and machining problems. I've seen many with off centered screw holes for scope bases etc. Prior to that they were pretty good. The Carolina guns that I have seen were pretty nice looking, but I have seen two of them that when the scope bases were installed the rear hole stripped out and this was with a proper torque wrench at proper setting being used. I don't know if they are doing something odd in heat treat or if the guy (same person owned both) was just unlucky, but on a DGR, i wouldn't want to worry about my scope screwing up because of some machining issues.

This is somewhat anecdotal information, but it's what i've seen.

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
I have a 30-06 in the Classic and I am very happy with it. Now I want a .375 H&H. I see ads for the Classic which I assume is a late model New Haven gun at about $1300 to $1900. I believe the new Model 70 will be less than that. Should I pay more for a Classic than a new one? Which one is better and why?
A pre '64 will run about $4,000. Is there a good reason to spend that much money in terms of function as opposed to collectability?

The one I looked at recently in .375H&H had tag price of $1199. While not as nimble as .375 Ruger African it is well made rifle that would help tame substantial recoil of this cartridge.
I'm was not interested as I have on need for such powerful gun.

quote:

Originally posted by guncurtis2:
The last few years of the New Haven guns were not good. Tended to be a lot of finish and machining problems. I've seen many with off centered screw holes for scope bases etc. Prior to that they were pretty good. The Carolina guns that I have seen were pretty nice looking, but I have seen two of them that when the scope bases were installed the rear hole stripped out and this was with a proper torque wrench at proper setting being used. I don't know if they are doing something odd in heat treat or if the guy (same person owned both) was just unlucky, but on a DGR, i wouldn't want to worry about my scope screwing up because of some machining issues.

This is somewhat anecdotal information, but it's what i've seen.

I bought a LH Mod 70 in .375 in December, 2005. I had my magic gunsmith do a $40.00 trigger job on it, and pressed on. Two buff, a variety of PG and a Canadian white tail later, it is performing flawlessly, with great fit and finish and uncanny accuracy.

Maybe some of the later guns are dogs, but mine certainly isn't. I will never part with it.

The Model 70 Classics with serial numbers under 300,000 were very well made. they are the last ones that have the little screw on the bolt sleeve. If you can find these they are great actions. Nice and smooth and no problems. (I have 5 of them)

I bought one of the last New Havens in .375 H&H. Fit and finish are fine. The wood is dark brown (stained?) but after all it's a hunting rifle. Barrel is matte finished black. It shoots 300 grain loads into 1" at 100 yards and 270 grain TSXs into about 3/4" and 2.2 inches above the 300s. 3-shot groups. End of load development.

I had a close look at a new Model 70 in 3-7-5 tonight at the Sportsman's Warehouse in Loveland, CO. Much smoother and nicer than the current base model CZ's, and a lot better gun for the money than a comparable Kimber. For $1100 bucks I'll eventually get one. I just wish they were configured in a more slim and trim package like the M77 375Ruger African, or the Pre-64 M70 3-7-5's.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by guncurtis2:
The last few years of the New Haven guns were not good. Tended to be a lot of finish and machining problems. I've seen many with off centered screw holes for scope bases etc. Prior to that they were pretty good. The Carolina guns that I have seen were pretty nice looking, but I have seen two of them that when the scope bases were installed the rear hole stripped out and this was with a proper torque wrench at proper setting being used. I don't know if they are doing something odd in heat treat or if the guy (same person owned both) was just unlucky, but on a DGR, i wouldn't want to worry about my scope screwing up because of some machining issues.

This is somewhat anecdotal information, but it's what i've seen.

I bought a LH Mod 70 in .375 in December, 2005. I had my magic gunsmith do a $40.00 trigger job on it, and pressed on. Two buff, a variety of PG and a Canadian white tail later, it is performing flawlessly, with great fit and finish and uncanny accuracy.

Maybe some of the later guns are dogs, but mine certainly isn't. I will never part with it.

I have seen some with no problems at all and they were nice guns, but i have seen a higher number of problems in those last couple years. Glad you got a good'un! I do love a great M70.

quote:

I just wish they were configured in a more slim and trim package like the M77 375Ruger African, or the Pre-64 M70 3-7-5's.

This has been my complaint about the M-70 in .375 H&H....just too heavy.....not that they weren't well made and fit and finished.

I barreled a classic in .338 WM the way I like it instead of buying a new one.....and at least for me it was a good decision.

From the sounds of some of the posts here, I've been lucky to have not seen one of the clunkers....All the M-70 I've run into in the past several years was a fine looking rifle. The African models however are too heavy for my likes.

An interesting read... Apart from gun shop handling my only experience with the new Winchester's was in sighting in a hunting partners brand new SS Model 70 extreme in 3006.

He topped it with a Bushnell Elite 4200 3x9 off another rifle. The fit and finish on this one appeared pretty good. I could not find anything scratched or ill fitting.

Once we got the Bushnell dialed it started making good groups. We got one ragged hole group at 100 meters. Not bad for out of the box.

My only complaint is the trigger, I thought it broke cleanly but could have had a pound or so taken off the pull.

I guess what I'm saying is if you can source a new Winnie in 375 h&h it might be worth taking a good look at. Like anything you might get some bad ones but the one I was playing with was very nice.

The classics are nice as well except like others have said if you can buy a new one for the same money - why not?

And finaly, a couple of the posters on this thread commented on those old Belgian Brownings. I have a 59 in 3006, it is a wonderful rifle. I'm not sure what would make a Winnie or the Browning better, I think of them as both very well made.

I kinda chuckle at the comment that a Pre-64 Mod. 70 was a slim and trim package. I have now owned three of these in factory original trim plus examined several more; they are NOT a light rifle and have a pretty stout barrel.

I consider them the "best" factory .375 H&H ever issued and also have a custom 20" .375 on a P-64 action, but, even with it's Borden-Rimrock stock and light mounts/scope, my minty example must go about 10 lbs....a bit too much for a .375, more what one wants a .416 to weigh, IMHO.

The pre-war 3-7-5's that I have come across have stocks that are about the same dimentions as those found on standard caliber rifles. The barrels were not much thicker as well.