I had hoped to get a Win M70 Classic Stainless in 375 H&H - BUT they don't make them anymore, replaced with something called the "Shadow Elite Stainless" which is a CRF. I am still hoping to find a Classic SS in 375 H&H.
But what about the Rem M700 XCR in 375 Rem Ultra Mag or even 375 H&H? (Its a push feed gun.)
Is the Ultra that much better than the H&H?
Is it going to last?
Now to open a can of worms - push feed vs controlled feed?
What are the pros & cons?
I appreciate any info, comments, and opinions you care to give.
I really had my heart set on the M70 Classic SS in 375H&H, but maybe the Elite thingy would be ok.
Thanks HL

If the Shadow Elite is a CRF in 375 H&H, then that is your anwser along with a good dose from a competent gunsmith to work out any kinks in the rifle.

The Ultra is ballistically superior to the 375 H&H but it is inferior in terms of availability. If you want the best of both worlds, the .375 Weatherby is the answer. With it, you can also shoot the .375 H&H cartridges.

BTW, use the seach function to find plenty of cartridge info and crf vs. push feed.

P.S. If you really want the M70 Classic SS in 375H&H, I am sure that you can still get one off the shelf if you look for one. Then there is also the used market like gunsamerica...

What are you going to use the gun for?

Probably 95% of people who buy a .375H&H never use it on truly dangerous game anyway.

George

My local gunsmith had a stainless just about a week ago. If you want I will call him tomarrow for the details.

If you prefer to call him direct 707 764 5744


Just let me know what you would like me to do.
Frank

IMO, every .375 chambering that has come down the pike since the origenal 375 H&H, is a fix for something that isn't broke!

Improving the .375 H&H is like trying to improve the 30-06 your wasting your time. If you dont like the original try something else.

quote:

Originally posted by gunny:
Improving the .375 H&H is like trying to improve the 30-06 your wasting your time...

I disagree. The 30-06 AI may gain only 40-60fps while the .375 Wea. will gain between 150-200fps over the .375 H&H. At some level of comparison, it is like taking a 30-06 and turning it into a .300 win. mag.

Is the shadow elite the stainless classic .375 just renamed ?? or is it cheapened further.......................it's not that disgusting crpf crap there pushing is it ??

Welcome, 4570Forever...within your first few posts, you've definetly opened a:



For starters, I'll try to give a good answer to your questions.
For seconds, do a search on the .45-70 in the BIG BORE section. OY!
(I'm currently researching the mathematics that make the .45-70 less of a Dangerous Game Rifle cartridge than any other cartridge with more 'horsepower' shooting a 500-gr. projectile at 2100 fps; but that's another story and controversy!)

When I researched my first love in a .375 H&H, it was the very rifle you are looking for. It seemed to be "THE .375"
In the end, I chose a Remington 700 BDL in .375 ULTRA because I own other Remington 700's and the ULTRA had just a 'tad' more 'horsepower' and better trajectory.
( YES, Gentlemen of the JURY, I STILL haven't fired that gun, but I'm ever closer to it... )
That said, I'm not a 'favored nation' here on the BIG BORE Forum because of my choice in the GUN, not so much the cartridge...but, it works for ME.
I don't have a NEED for CRF vs. PF, as PF works fine in my circumstances.
IF I decided to buy another rifle in a BIG BORE it would almost certainly be a CZ550 American Safari version in .458 LOTT or a rebarreled .470 AR ( currently under testing and research ) SOLELY because it HAS CRF and the 2-position safety I am familiar with in my Remington format...
That only goes to show that this place and these people have influenced me in a positive way regardless of any internet arguments we've had in spite of my novice status.
I'm not so concerned with the CRF vs. PF as I used to be since there is now a rifle that affords increased capacity and the 'operational familiarity' that I was hoping to have if I purchase a BIG BORE DRG...
As one of the other Gentlemen asked, "What is the rifle going to be used for?"
That should help you with your decision.
If you're determined to find the rifle you sought in the first place, my advice is:
FIND IT! Don't give up.
I wish you well and good fortune in your quest.

Bus

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
IMO, every .375 chambering that has come down the pike since the origenal 375 H&H, is a fix for something that isn't broke!

Those are wise words Mac!!

Thanks for all the great replies. I forgot to mention I am a handloader, I'll probably never get to hunt DG> WHY do I want it? Just because I want one.
I haven't given up on the M70 Classic Stainless, I am looking in various places, BUT I am looking at other avenues. $$$ is an issue, would like one that doesn't require work but is ok "out of the box".
I have used the search feature and found a lot of info - which is what prompted the original post. Again thanks for all the great replies. HL

ON the new Elite Stainless, the Winchester website lists it as only CRF not the CRPF so it looks pretty good to me.

Are they actually availagble to order yet thought???

My first 375 H&H was a 1982 made Winchester Super Express "push" feed that I took a lion with. Never had one problem with it. Replaced with a custom on a pre 64 action that is super, but I wish I had kept the old rifle as well.

I'd stick with the H&H for two reasons. It works well and if you are ever stuck someplace where your rifle arrived and your ammo did not, chances are real good you will be able to find 375 H&H ammo.

The elite stainless looks like it is just a classic stainless with a new stock. Still has the big barrel and open sites. Lists for $50 less than the classic stainless too.

Don't know where you are from but there is a 375 classic stainless at my local wal-mart for $790.

Thanks for all the great responses. The XCR in 375 RUM got away but I did find a NIB Win. Mod. 70 Classic Stainless in 375 H&H which I have ordered. Glad I found it - I just have this "thing" about the old pre'64 M70 type/style rifles (I hunt with one in 06). I also have a Rem 700 LSS in 338 RUM that I also use and enjoy BUT that Classic Stainless in 375 H&H just caught my fancy.
Again thats for all the input.
4570Forever

375 RUM,my next rifle.

I've killed buffalo with the regular .375 H&H, the .375 AI{the balistic twin of the .375 Weatherby}, and the .375RUM. I can tell the difference on the length of the run after being shot and at least my perception of the time the buff took to go down. I would rate the RUM as the fastest killer but all the other buffs but one were one shot kills so again it gets back to shot placement.

I have a 375 rum and love it.. Yes the H&H is great but sometime people want more and as for the Improving the .375 H&H is like trying to improve the 30-06 your wasting your time. If you dont like the original try something else. Oh and that why they make a 300 win & H&h and 300 weatherby?? I am not saying the 30-06 isn't great, I love mine. But don't knock a more powerful 375...

quote:

I've killed buffalo with the regular .375 H&H, the .375 AI{the balistic twin of the .375 Weatherby}, and the .375RUM. I can tell the difference on the length of the run after being shot and at least my perception of the time the buff took to go down. I would rate the RUM as the fastest killer but all the other buffs but one were one shot kills so again it gets back to shot placement.

What? What is the sample number of buff each variety of .375 was used on? And how did you measure the "length of the run"? How does a .375 caliber bullet in the exact same POI kill faster than another? Buff don't shock like deer-sized game and still die like most big ungulates (and carnivores for that matter)from the lack of oxygen to the brain caused by the leakage from the .375 diamter hole in some vital organ. Doesn't compute to me. Probably where the buff was hit and what the bullet did rather than H&H vs. Weatherby vs. RUM. Just mho.

Where the Weatherby and RUM shine is when you have a long shot across a floodplain or open glade say 200 yards...then the retained energy and trajectory at that range begins to make sense. See Saeed's longer shots on buff on this website and you will see his .375/404 shine!

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
What? What is the sample number of buff each variety of .375 was used on? !

bwanamrm,
i've seen his safari videos... and hunted with him... and shot with him.. the man in an incredible shot and soaks up recoil pretty well

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
What? What is the sample number of buff each variety of .375 was used on? !

bwanamrm,
i've seen his safari videos... and hunted with him... and shot with him.. the man in an incredible shot and soaks up recoil pretty well

jeffe

DITTO,

Hog Killer

quote:

bwanamrm,
i've seen his safari videos... and hunted with him... and shot with him.. the man in an incredible shot and soaks up recoil pretty well

jeffe

Gentlemen,
Please do not misunderstand my post...I am not trying to demean Mufasa at all. The internet posting with it's lack of inflection sometimes gives that impression. I really ask the question is the hotter variety of .375's a better killer than the original H&H.

My thoughts on that are 1. have enough been killed (sample size), 2. data recorded etc. to prove such? I still conclude it comes down to the basic shot placement...a .375 caliber hole is a .375 caliber hole because the energy gained by 150 to 200 fps is mostly a moot point on buff. However, retained energy at longer ranges is a diferent story. Just my opinion and yes I AM a big fan of the old H&H so there may be some nostalgia prejudicing my posts slightly!

Sorry if any offense was taken by my post. Did not mean it that way.

bwanamrm \,
thank for clearing that up.. seemed a litle agressive, which is operand for the resultant answer.

I double anyone alive today has a "significant" sample, imho.. mostly due to cost... From a statistics persepctive, no less than say 10 per caliber per situation would actually give you a model to give you "math" from.. and 100 would be better.

townsen whelen had a similar issue, when testing on Hogs... even repeatable expereints weren't repesentative "in the field" as a hog shot at 200 yards while feeding wouldn't ahve the same results as a human during combat, all keyed up.


jeffe

[/QUOTE]

What? What is the sample number of buff each variety of .375 was used on? And how did you measure the "length of the run"? How does a .375 caliber bullet in the exact same POI kill faster than another? [/QUOTE]

I know diddly about killing buffalo but I've killed and/or cleaned enough big game to see that wound channel diameters can vary with terminal velocity, all else being equal. Maybe (and I mean MAYBE) that is what comes into play here.

Larger wound channel, faster bleed-out. Pure speculation on such a small sample but not out of the question with softs.

Using the same bullet design and maker. Which shot will create more damage? One impacting at 1500 fps or 2500fps. It does not matter which case/name(HH, AI, RUM, etc.) it starts from. That is using an extrem vel. spread, but it illustrates the point. Impact velocity is what matters, range to target and starting speed are the major factors that determines IV. So a point blank shot with the H&H and the same shot placement with a RUM from longer distance but with the same IV equals the same results.

Hog Killer

Again, gentlemen, we are not talking about other game...we are talking about large ungulates like buff. And we are not talking 1000 fps, we are talking about 200 fps. I understand the Roy Weatherby "faster bullet" theory and have seen it work devastatingly on small to medium size game. I just opine that buff are different, as are elephant. It is penetration and the diameter of the wound channel that ultimately decides how "fast" the larger animal dies. My opinion...and I'll let her stand at that.

Looks like I riled "the Band of Bubbas", must I travel incognito the next time I am in Huntsville?

You get them too riled up and they won't wait for you to wander through Huntsville, they'll make the drive to Victoria and hunt your ass down.

Don't know if you got your rifle yet. I have both of the above mentioned and after some thought I think you may want to look at a Sako AV or a Whitworth Express. Although the Rum delivers a potent round I feel the quality of the rifle more important than the difference in the round.
Frank

Forrest, to date we have only went after one person, who I will not disclose. We have two methods to intimidate, one is water balloons, the other is throwing marshmallows.......we chose water balloons. Problem being, we forgot to put the water in the balloons and it was a total failure. They tried to blame it on me and accused me of bringing a mirror to look at myself instead of the water. But that was not the case, we had water in plastic milk jugs and ended up shooting them before we got to our location, all the water ran out. I doubt anybody is at risk.

I can absolutely guarantee that I have not shot enough buff to rate any caliber as the "best" caliber for buff. But my experience has been that shot broadside, buff shot with the .375H&H and the .375 AI would make a run of 50 to 100 yards and go down but almost always required a finisher. The buff I shot with the .375 UM ran less than 50 yards and were stone dead. I used 300 gr Swifts in the H&H and AI and 300 gr Barnes X in the UM. I think Jeff is right, that it would take 100 or so buff in each caliber with the same bullets to get a real test group going. I am not like some here who champion the cause of a particular caliber; I regularly carry a .375 H&H because it is a fine caliber and my rifle is very accurate. From my personal experience, however, I would carry the UM every time if I were only hunting buff.