When I play with the recoil calculators I find that a 300gr 375 bullet @2500 fps is very close to the 400gr 404 bullet @2150 fps in the recoil department. What Im interested to know is that when the 404 Jeffrey is loaded with 400gr bullets at the original loading of 2150fps how does the on game performance compare to the 375HH. Now I know with modern powders that 404 Jeff can push a bullet up to 2,400fps but the step up in recoil is a bit too much for me.
So does the original 2150fps loading meet or exceed on game performance of the 300gr 375HH ?

For allround use on plains game I would prefer the 375 H&H.

However for buff, lion, big bears up close and elephant I would much prefer the 404.

I have shot deer, wild pigs, caribou, warthog, cape buff, lion and elephant with my 450/400 3 1/4" double, same ballistics as the 404 and it worked perfect.

I have shot Rustys 404 and I prefer the recoil of it to the 375 rifles I have shot.

All else being equal, the 375 will have greater penetration.

Is there any merit in that because the 404 has less of a bottle neck than the 375HH this well lesson the perceived recoil?

quote:

Posted 15 May 2007 00:31 Hide Post
For allround use on plains game I would prefer the 375 H&H.

However for buff, lion, big bears up close and elephant I would much prefer the 404.

I have shot deer, wild pigs, caribou, warthog, cape buff, lion and elephant with my 450/400 3 1/4" double, same ballistics as the 404 and it worked perfect.

I have shot Rustys 404 and I prefer the recoil of it to the 375 rifles I have shot.

DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY

NE450#2,

Is that one of the appeals of the 450/400....with its "modest" ballistics comes less recoil?

quote:

Posted 15 May 2007 00:45 Hide Post
All else being equal, the 375 will have greater penetration.

Will,

Really? The SD of 375/300 is .305, the Sd of 404/400 is .321.... the 375 has more velocity, does the offset the 404 greater SD?

I think the 375h&h is a great all-rounder but for bigger game, tough to beat a 42 caliber, they just seem to hit harder. Push the 340grNF @ 2600fps & you get a bit more recoil, but teamed w/ a 380gr-400gr @ 2200fps & it's a pretty good one rifle for Africa.

Fordnutter,

Even if the recoil calculations give you roughly the same figure on paper the felt recoil isn't! I can assure you that the Jeffery while manageable is a LOT more recoil than the 375H&H anyday.

That is my experience in my 2 custon rifles one a M70 375 H&H & the other a 404J on a 1909 Argentine. I say that even though my H&H weighs 10lbs & the 404 8 oz more. My 400gr Woodleighs travel at 2185 fps whilst the 300gr 375's are at 2550fps.

I know which rifle I would choose for the bulk of my shooting.

Regards,
JohnT

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:

quote:

Posted 15 May 2007 00:45 Hide Post
All else being equal, the 375 will have greater penetration.

Will,

Really? The SD of 375/300 is .305, the Sd of 404/400 is .321.... the 375 has more velocity, does the offset the 404 greater SD?

The 375H&H will penetrate further with solid bullets, which is what Will was refering too.

If you were to push the velocity of the 404 up to that of the 375H&H it would penetrate further.

I suspect that at about 2250fps the 404 would meet or exceed the 375H&H in penetration, but just a guess.

No citation on the opinion referenced above except campfire talk with PH's into rifles and bullets and with more experience than me.

JPK

Edited to add that my experiences with the North Fork flat nose solid leads me to believe that even at 2200 the lighter bullet will exceed the 400gr round nose solids in penetration, might even give a round nose 375H&H a run for its money.

.375 or .404?

Tough choice.

What to do?

[Enter the .395]

PERFECTION!


fordnutter,

The experienced claim that downloading the .375 to around 2400 works well on big game. .375 "tropical" loads are quite gentle, relatively speaking.

I don't have any experience with the .404 but for me, without question, powder burn rate has a tremendous effect on recoil of the .375. Going even from 4064 to Big Game (burn rate like RL-15) is to go from 300@2250 that is miserable to shoot to 300@2500 that is fun to shoot, even though there is significantly more recoil with the latter.

.375 .404


.395

I'm thinking I will just grab the CZ 416 Rigby with Wisner extended floor plate and shove five of them big-assed mommas down the box...call me happy!!

Rich
DRSS

Azguy
Your statement is correct.
IMHO
The 450/400 and the 404 have less recoil than the 458 Win, 450 doubles and the 470.

I have a 450/400 and a 450 No2.

My 375 H&H rifles are kinda light, but I still find the recoil speed of even a heavier weight 375 to seem "harder" than the 450/400, 404 rifles.

This is just my opinion, as recoil is a subjective thing.

For instance, shooting them side by side I find the recoil of a 500 Nitro Merkel to be "worse" than a Searcy 577 Nitro.

Nostalgia aside, the 404NEJ has nothing on .416RemiMag. I would load Remi to 2200fps and be done with it.

375 H&H hands down!

AzGuy,

Not that one can nail down the accuracy of the Penetration Index, but the following is probably generally true for solids.

Cart. Vel Wt. Dia P. Index
7x57 2450 175 0.284 114
9.3x62 2360 286 0.366 102
375 2550 300 0.375 119
404 2150 400 0.423 93
416 2400 400 0.416 124
470 2150 500 0.475 92
458 2150 500 0.458 106
Lott 2300 500 0.458 121

My .404 J kicks harder than my .375 H7H and I am using the English squib loads..........................gun is a fair bit lighter though to I suppose.

quote:

I can assure you that the Jeffery while manageable is a LOT more recoil than the 375H&H anyday.

When it comes to the .375 vs. the .404J, opinions are noses, everybody has one. I have owned and still have a .375, which I like very much. It weighs about 8 1/2 lbs.. I have a .404J that weighs about the same and I have shot up to 92 grs. of H4831 with a 400 gr. bullet. I find both rifles have the same perceived recoil and neither one seems like a quick, hard jab but big push, certainly manageable if you can shoot a full house .375.

quote:

Originally posted by fordnutter:
When I play with the recoil calculators I find that a 300gr 375 bullet @2500 fps is very close to the 400gr 404 bullet @2150 fps in the recoil department. What Im interested to know is that when the 404 Jeffrey is loaded with 400gr bullets at the original loading of 2150fps how does the on game performance compare to the 375HH. Now I know with modern powders that 404 Jeff can push a bullet up to 2,400fps but the step up in recoil is a bit too much for me.
So does the original 2150fps loading meet or exceed on game performance of the 300gr 375HH ?

I am surprised that you have noticed a significative difference of recoil between 375 and 404. My son, 14 years old , 60 kg, has had no real problem when shooting a 404 jeffery ( 400 gr) in a CZ 550 ; with a good recoil pad, he said the recoil was not so different from this of his 12 gauge (and he is so proud to be able to shoot an "elephant bullet").

Frog,
I normally hunt with a braked 220 swift so have found the 375HH to be a challenge to learn to shoot well with. I tried a friends 404 Jeffrey loaded with 400gr bullets at 2,400fps and found it quite uncomfortable to shoot. Now that could be stock design, rifle weight etc that influenced that. One day I'd love to shoot this calibre...I simply wondered if by loading to original specs (2,150fps) if there would be any worthwhile advantage on game while keeping the recoil down at a comfortable level for me.

quote:

Originally posted by fordnutter:
I simply wondered if by loading to original specs (2,150fps) if there would be any worthwhile advantage on game while keeping the recoil down at a comfortable level for me.

Most definetly. While we all respond to recoil diff. it can be overcome to a certain extent. There is quite a diff. in recoil in the 404j from 400gr @ 2150fps to 400gr @ 2400fps. I have found that 2200fps kills just fine, bullets perform perfectly & the only disadvantage is the round drops more past 100yds. For a DG rifle, that doesn't bother me. Start shooting w/o the muzzle breaks, maybe a 30-06, then work to heavier bullets in the 375h&h. Start w/ 220gr @ 2500fps then move up to 270 then move up to 300. I load 300gr pistol bullets to 2400fps in my 404j for "plinking". Something hard to do in the 416rem/rigby

quote:

Posted 15 May 2007 16:55 Hide Post
AzGuy,

Not that one can nail down the accuracy of the Penetration Index, but the following is probably generally true for solids.

Cart. Vel Wt. Dia P. Index
7x57 2450 175 0.284 114
9.3x62 2360 286 0.366 102
375 2550 300 0.375 119
404 2150 400 0.423 93
416 2400 400 0.416 124
470 2150 500 0.475 92
458 2150 500 0.458 106
Lott 2300 500 0.458 121

-------------------------------
Bill Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

"Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $55 postpaid:

Will,

I've never heard of a penetration index.... an interesting concept that probably bears some relationship to the real world. Who came up with it and how is it calculated. Thanks, Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:

quote:

Posted 15 May 2007 16:55 Hide Post
AzGuy,

Not that one can nail down the accuracy of the Penetration Index, but the following is probably generally true for solids.

Cart. Vel Wt. Dia P. Index
7x57 2450 175 0.284 114
9.3x62 2360 286 0.366 102
375 2550 300 0.375 119
404 2150 400 0.423 93
416 2400 400 0.416 124
470 2150 500 0.475 92
458 2150 500 0.458 106
Lott 2300 500 0.458 121

-------------------------------
Bill Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

"Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $55 postpaid:

Will,

I've never heard of a penetration index.... an interesting concept that probably bears some relationship to the real world. Who came up with it and how is it calculated. Thanks, Jeff

Short of buying my book (Hint, Hint!), it is from A-Square's Any Shot You Want.

PI=(KE)(SD)/(100Af)

KE=kinectic energy, ft-lb
SD-sectional density, lb/in^2
Af=bullet cross-sectional area, in^2

quote:

Originally posted by fordnutter:
Frog,
I normally hunt with a braked 220 swift so have found the 375HH to be a challenge to learn to shoot well with. I tried a friends 404 Jeffrey loaded with 400gr bullets at 2,400fps and found it quite uncomfortable to shoot. Now that could be stock design, rifle weight etc that influenced that. One day I'd love to shoot this calibre.

Just wondering, you'd shoot the swift from a rest, to get accuracy. I don't believe you are supposed to do that with the bigger calibers.
If you can, to test loads well and good, otherwise find some way to shoot them standing.

quote:

Originally posted by fordnutter:
Frog,
I normally hunt with a braked 220 swift so have found the 375HH to be a challenge to learn to shoot well with. I tried a friends 404 Jeffrey loaded with 400gr bullets at 2,400fps and found it quite uncomfortable to shoot. Now that could be stock design, rifle weight etc that influenced that. One day I'd love to shoot this calibre...I simply wondered if by loading to original specs (2,150fps) if there would be any worthwhile advantage on game while keeping the recoil down at a comfortable level for me.

The rifle was a CZ 550, customised ( kevlar or synthetic derivate), weight : a little less than 4 kg, with an optics of 300grams, without muzzle break, and the bullet a 404 rimless woodleigh 400 gr, 2214 feet/s.
In my opinion ( having myself tried this rifle and a christensen in 375 hh, compared with my blaser in 375 and 416), the minimization of the recoil by using kevlar or derivates is really effective ( whatever the physical mechanisms involved, it transforms the felt recoil from a a "peak" in a push): my son was not at all prepared to try this rifle, but the gunsmith was sure it would not be a problem for him....and he was right.
So, if you are excited by 404, try "synthetic" rifles with, possibly, a muzzle break ( an important advantage of which is to minimize the "jump")

Re: PI Formula

Gents, I think this formula is wrong.

Let me state first, that I have NO experience with really Big game. I am NOT anybody to compare to Taylor!!! I have read two of his books, and think they are good reading and he has ( LOTS! ) of first hand experience!

But there are, IMO, mathematical errors:

it overstresses the area. Its in the sectional density and then again under the "line"! So its squared!

IMHO a formula for penetration should start like:

speed - generally, the more, the more penetration

bullet weight - the heavier, the better

Frontal area - for a given velocity and a given bullet weight, the SMALLER, the bettter.

so my Formula would start:

velocity * bullet weight / frontal area.

This of course is only for Solids. Ande there should be a "form factor". Where in earlier times I would have said, the "pointier" a bullet, the better the penetration. Now I think, a bullet with a meplat will drive straighter. But for a comparison of caliber this is not neceassary, as there are theoretically the same bullets available in all calibers - hopefully!

BTW Vel * Weight = Momentum ( not Energy, as in Taylor´s formula: here he overestimates the Velocity ( as it´s squared ) which is in direct contrast to his tellings! Perhaps this is the reason he double inputs the frontal area in his formula ). But he still "uses" bullet weight only once in the formula, but he writes otherwise, saying ( from memory ) "... the effect of more weight in a bullet cannot be overstated ..."

Of course my formula needs another factor to get "nice" numbers ;-)

Just my .02 ...

Hermann

Afterthought:

even simplier:

sectional density + velocity

We KNOW that higher sectional density means more penetration. We also know, the more velocity, the more penetration.

Maybe, if one of the three factors involved is ( from RAW experience!! ) more important, it >might< be squared.

But for sure NOT velocity! A) because weight is more important than vel in penetration, and B) because sometimes more velocity means bullet failure ... ( and C) because even Taylor himself says so! ) ( not to mention Keith et al ... )

H

fordnutter,

I worked up these recoil calculations for another post and thought you might be interested in running a sensitivity analysis to dial in rifle weight and balance taking into account distribution of recoil technology (muzzle brake; stock design, etc) for your needs. I believe shot placement is key but I also prefer a larger caliber. For a mixed bag safari the .375 is flatter on longer shots at smaller game. On a dangerous game safari, the .404 Jeffery has the advantage of caliber and weight.

The 3rd Law of Physics:
"Whenever one body exerts a force on another, the second body always exerts on the first a force which is equal in measure but opposite in direction." In other words, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The rifle will have a recoil momentum equal to the bullet and powder gas momentum exiting the muzzle. Momentum equals Mass (M) times Velocity (V).

Cartridge: 9.3x62
Bullet Weight: 286 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2350 fps
Average Powder Weight: 55 grains
7000 grains = 1 pound
Powder Gas Velocity = 5200 fps

MV = MV, therefore;

Bullet Weight/7000 x Bullet Velocity + Powder Charge/7000 x Powder Gas Velocity = Rifle Weight x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Assume an initial rifle weight of 9 pounds to determine Rifle Recoil Velocity in order to calculate Kinetic Energy, therefore;

[286/7000 x 2350] + [55/7000 x 5200] = 9 x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

[96.01 + 40.86] /9 = Rifle Recoil Velocity = Free Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Rifle Recoil Velocity = 15.21 fps for a 9.3x62 weighing 9 pounds. For comparison purposes, the Rifle Recoil Velocity of .30-06 weighing 8.5 pounds firing a 180 grain bullet is 12.71 fps.

Now calculate Kinetic Energy (KE) expressed in ft. lbs:

KE = Mass times Velocity squared / Gravitational Constant, therefore;

KE = [9 x 15.21 x 15.21] / 64.32, therefore;

KE = 32.37 ft. lbs. = Free Recoil Energy for 9.3x62 weighing 9 pounds.

Remarks about the so called “ recoil calculatorsâ€
General formulas generally used to “calculate the recoil†are only able to provide order of magnitudes, but not the maximal recoil itself.

Consider the movement of the bullet (and of the powder) just after the burst:
- the pressure, which is the force acting on the bullet divided by the section, starts from zero, then reaches a peak, then decreases to zero
- the speed of the bullet ( + powder) starts from zero, then progressively increases to a maximum

According to the 3d law of Newton, the reaction on the rifle is equal to the action on the bullet ( + powder) ( suppose the actions are transmitted instantaneously).
Physically, actions and reactions are FORCES, not momentums or kinetic energies.
Consequently, neither kinetic energy nor momentum gives you the maximal recoil, but only “averagesâ€.
The maximal recoil force (acting on the shooter’s shoulder) could only be calculated through the intensity of the peak of pressure , which is generally unknown, and cannot be determined through the maximal speed ( a given speed can correspond to a high pressure during a short time or to a mower pressure during a longer time)

So, in practice: there is no substitute to self experimentation…

In my experience, felt recoil of the 404J is quite a bit heavier than the 375 H&H. I pick the 404J as the better all around rifle because I have a 404 and have turned loose of 3 375's. If it's too far away to make a sure hit with the 404, then I might hafta actually hunt to get closer.

This seems to come up all the time as to what effect this or that independent parameter has on penetration, killing effect, etc. It was on AR that someone pointed out to me that the gas energy really has any effect, and I stood corrected, as I originally thought it was insignificant. But you can derive it, but have to know or assume some gas velocity.

The recoil calculator on Hunt America does the above calculation for you.

http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

though I do not know what gas velocity they use, but one could back calculate it.

I believe there are too many variables to ever nail down what combination of parameters absolutely define killing effect. No two shots are alike and no two buffalo, or whatever, are alike.

Some claim energy, others momentum, while others try to derive some other magic formula.

As far as recoil energy and rifle recoil velocity, they are a matter of physics, but depending on how the stock fits, etc., the absolute recoil effect can be perceived differently by individuals. If one uses the calculator, it can be seen that the difference between the recoil energies and velocities of the 375 H&H and the 404 Jeffery are almost negligible. But if you perceive them to be different, so be it.

As far as "killing effect" there has to be bullet energy and penetration, and placement.

John Taylor had his thoughts on the matter, taking into the effect of bullet diameter, which is probably as good or better than most theories. I would think it is an uncontested fact than bigger diameter bullets, all else being equal, has more killing or knockdown effect.

But bigger bullets require higher velocities (energies!) to get equal penetration, which is why, all else being equal, that the "nominal" 404 Jeffery will not penetrate as well as the "nominal" 375 H&H.

But the increased penetration of the 375 is a trade-off with whatever greater knockdown effect the Jeffery might have.

I believe Taylor over-estimates his absolute knockdown effect, as you can barely miss the brain on buffalo and elephant and it can NO effect. But bigger bullets will have greater knockdown effect than little ones.

But show me a better theory!!

I'll save this post for the next time!!

The 375 offhand is a pussy cat. Checking the express sights off the bench is where you really have to concentrate to shoot well. 20 rounds and my shoulder is feeling secondhand. 20 rounds offhand no ill effect.

Now that I know the express sights are sorted for the ammo in use at least I won't need to bench it again. I don't think a 404 Jeff would be fun off the bench! Are there better ways for benching one of these rifles without the recoil problems for sighting in??

I have used both calibers extensively in Africa and to a lesser extent in the USA on elk, Bison and Moose.

They are my top two choices of big bores along with the 404 counterpart the 450-400.

I see little difference in recoil between the .375 and 404 with the 2150 FPS 404 Loads. I believe the 404 is a better killer on all game than the .375, however the 375 may have the advantage of range, at least on paper, in the real world I doubt it. I used the 404 squib loads in years past, but no longer use them as 2400 FPS is my game load and a good deal faster if I am hunting plains game.

Both calibers will work on any animal on this planet, take your pick, comparing the two is a waste of time, they work the same with a properly placed and properly constructed bullet.

I have never found fault in either caliber on any animal.

Here is how I see this comparison.

Recoil: Neither has enough to worry about.

Longer ranges: 375 H&H would get the nod for it's higher velocity and flater trajectory.

Frontal area: Goes to the Jeffery

Availablity: 375 H&H lots of factory ready rifles to choice from. 404 Jeff pretty much a custom build only.

Bullet choices: .375 hands down the winner.(more makers and cost less) Same for factory ammo.

Both have and will kill anything, anywhere. Of coarse shot placement is always number 1.

Kind of boils down to what trips your trigger.

Keith

So lets get this right..
If you can handle a 375HH chances are the 404 jeff should not be a problem...I know that recoil is highly subjective to the individual but what would be the average limit for a person? 416 Rigby...458 Lott??

Average shooter, huh? I'd say 416 at max. Some rare individuals will tolerate the Lott for about 3-6 rnds before they turn around and give you that WTF look.

Run a couple of calculations. Can you stand an 06?

quote:

Originally posted by fordnutter:
...I know that recoil is highly subjective to the individual but what would be the average limit for a person? ...

With or without training? There are those who have not tried anything bigger than 308Win, and think it is BIG STUFF. With 7 Rem Mag being a cannon. With some proper training and gradual increase in power, most should be able to handle 416Rigby/Rem with no problems. Most of perceived recoil happens between the EARS, ie: mental mind set. Who ever "feels" recoil when shooting an animal? With experience and the right attitude, and a rifle that fits the shooter, 458Lott, 470Mbogo, 500A2, and 577NE are all managable.

Keith

Some of it is attitude, some of it is practice and some of it is just plain tolerance to punishment.

More power to the guys that can go out and shoot 6 boxes of Lott cartridges at a sitting.
I think most see their limit in the 5000 ft-lb range. These are the 416's, the 470, the 458 WM, etc. which is in part why they are so popular. One can build up somewhat of a tolerance to the abuse, but abuse is abuse.

I, on the other hand, start getting a headache between 5 to 10 rounds, even standing. The Lott (~5800 ft-lb) just reduces that range!