The big deal with the 450 Bushmaster is you can hunt southern Michigan with them. Plenty of ammo around here. Guys are rebarreling Savages. You can buy Ruger Americans around here, left, right, blue, stainless. 16, 22 inch,wood, plastic, muzzle brake. I think there are a couple other states you can use in also.

quote:

Lawndart, have I got a deal for you.
I have a FN mil 98, D&T, a Brownells model 70 type bolt handle on it. It has a 24" Green Mt barrel short chambered in 416 Taylor, all in one of Ramlines finest shit stock.
I have shot it a few times, as .338 brass necked up fits perfect, but is not quite a .416 Taylor. $275 and shipping. It's just an accumulation of parts and pieces accumulated over the years, but could be turned into something like your scout gun. I might even have a set of Lee or something .416 dies around somewhere.

I am interested. could you shoot a picture or two, and send it to lawndart@speedyquick.net ? Since I have the reamer, 200 cases, and a bag of .416 bullets as big as Kim Kardashian's left butt cheek, it sounds like a great deal. I think it would be easy enough to drop the velocity/recoil enough to have an effective range of 150, or 200 meters. 350-grain rounds would lighten the recoil as well. With an RMR sight, it would be hell without wheels. I'll likely stick it in a Boyds stock, and set it up with a ching sling. I have a set of Redding dies, but I will be delighted to take the Lees, Lymans, or whatever.

German soldier helps a Canadian Medic transport a wounded soldier, nationality not specified. I suppose the dog was there to clean up the floor.

I imported the first batch of 45 Blaser brass into America about 10 years ago. Aleko ordered the firs barrel Blaser USA had for me in 45 Blaser and I got brass from Triebel in Germany.

I'd build another 45 Blaser on a 308 guide gun, it would be a ruckus!

If you just bought a Ruger Mark II 77 short action, in 308/243/6.5 CM/7mm-08 or whatever you could buy the bottom metal for it to use AICS magazines.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
it's not about equal bullet weights --
you can run a 405 rem over 1500 fps in a socom, and a 600gr at 1000 .. this is WAY past the end of what a bushmaster can do ....

a 405 at 1000 fps is subsonic, could be suppressed, and hits pigs with the hand of god ... having shot pigs with 250s and 405s at this speed, 1000fps, they are WAY more impressed with the later.

the 405's i have (and a bunch of them) i bought for about 12.5 cents each ...i think they are 35 cents each today .... the ability to hit hard, agreed at 150 yards or closer, and even suppressed.. well...

let's agree that the bushmaster tops out where the socom begins...

basically the same thing as a 45/70 vs a 458 winmag ..

And where the fun begins is the .45 Blaser sits between the .45/70 and .458Win in case capacity, and feeds from .308 / 7.62 NATO mags

Handloaded the Blaser starts where the .45/70 tops out

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I imported the first batch of 45 Blaser brass into America about 10 years ago. Aleko ordered the firs barrel Blaser USA had for me in 45 Blaser and I got brass from Triebel in Germany.

I'd build another 45 Blaser on a 308 guide gun, it would be a ruckus!

If you just bought a Ruger Mark II 77 short action, in 308/243/6.5 CM/7mm-08 or whatever you could buy the bottom metal for it to use AICS magazines.

Out of interest what head stamp was the brass?

My Bertram brass is *WR* for Wolfgang Romey

It was Horneber brass, ?I think? 10 years is a long damn time mate!

quote:

Originally posted by 19rabbit52:
The big deal with the 450 Bushmaster is you can hunt southern Michigan with them. --------
I think there are a couple other states you can use in also.

best reason ive seen

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The SOCOM has the advantage with big bullets and subsonic ammunition. No argument there. But at 300gr and lighter the Bushmaster does just as well or better.

You raise a lot of points - i am addressing them 1 by 1, not going after you personally -
yes and no -- this is a pretty lame thing to win in, as we are discussing BIG bores here... and a 225gr pistol bullet is a large hole, not a big bore. and, all else being equal in the ruger gunsite model, this is a bolt gun AND the barrel is threaded ..

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

If you aren't going to go suppressed then I think it's a tossup.

no, not really - in a ruger bolt gun, 35k psi is the BOTTOM loading

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Which brings us back to the point. Ruger is offering a couple of inexpensive rifles

the POINT is they missed the point -- IIRC the one off license fee for a socom (and I've told marty this was a bad idea) is $25 -- the tooling cost difference is ZERO than if offered in the

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
in the .450 Bushmaster. I think they made a good choice for those.

i realize you think this, i disagree, especially when we are talking about big bores

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Remember, the .458 SOCOM is proprietary.

no - not exactly -- it's LICENSED and a commercially available, with anyone can buy anything around it, except the reamer -

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Maybe Ruger couldn't make the right deal to keep the prices where they wanted,

i expect the per 10,000 licensing cost would come in close to $5 per gun.. might be as low as $2 .. this is a non-issue

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
maybe there was some other reason. Brass for the SOCOM is also proprietary

NOPE - dead wrong -- commercially available

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
but not so for the .450 Bushmaster. Maybe that was factored in. Or maybe Ruger wanted to use a SAAMI standardized cartridge.

let's just say that SAAMI doesn't actually MEAN anything - it's VOLUNTARY -- Taken directly from their website "Voluntary Industry Performance Standards
for Pressure and Velocity
of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition
for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers" http://saami.org/specification...AAMI_CFR.pdf#page=13

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The .458 SOCOM is not a SAAMI cartridge.

means very little --

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier: Still, if Ruger had made these rifles in .458 SOCOM I would be telling you they are a nice idea and it would be silly to buy one just to re-barrel it to .450 Bushmaster.

i agree -the use cases are overlapping, but discrete

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
When you look at the SOCOM compared to the Bushmaster it looks like a much bigger and formidable cartridge. It's got that oohhh! factor. But it's all show. Because of the extra girth the SOCOM's pressure must be held back to prevent excessive backthrust.

NO -- factually incorrect -- as backthrust isn't a gunsmithing term, i assume you mean bolt-thrust, which is defined (slightly incorrectly) as surface area of casehead * PSI - properly it is max internal diameter to be used to determine theoretical surface area *psi, though the rule of thumb of casehead works fine ... you'll note that's * psi ..in your next setting, you mention the bushmaster is loaded to a higher pressure - which means higher boltthrust

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
So, while the .450 Bushmaster is a 40,000 psi cartridge the .458 SOCOM is only a 35,000 psi cartridge.

well, no, and which is it? as we are talking about a bolt gun, the socom, just like EVERY OTHER ROUND, can be loaded warmer than in a gas gun .. everyone with a garand knows this -- but, which it is? you quote not saami and then load a "well known" max load ... as you can see, saami means NOTHING.. and, oh, btw, saami doesn't express load data, only bullet and pressure

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
That evens them up pretty well.

only in a gas gun, which isn't the circumstances we are discussing -

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
As to availability of .452" bullets, they are ubiquitous in weights up to 300 grains but that's about it.

agree -- and to build on that, the 250 and up tend to be tougher bullets, designed for higher vel impact - this isn't a rant about how .452 bullets aren't up to the role

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
If there were some easily obtainable 350, 400 and 450 grain bullets in .452"

which would lead to a rebarrel, as the usual twist (not spec'ed by SAAMI, btw - i included a link to the data provided BY saami above) would not stabilize a 500gr cast bullet.. too slow

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
then the two cartridges would be virtually identical in performance across the board.

but they aren't - that's a long chain of IFs

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

GREAT pic

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:

quote:

Originally posted by 19rabbit52:
The big deal with the 450 Bushmaster is you can hunt southern Michigan with them. --------
I think there are a couple other states you can use in also.

best reason ive seen

Totally disagree -- this is the best reason for 'ganders to change the state's laws

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grenadier:
The SOCOM has the advantage with big bullets and subsonic ammunition. No argument there. But at 300gr and lighter the Bushmaster does just as well or better.

You raise a lot of points - i am addressing them 1 by 1, not going after you personally -
yes and no -- this is a pretty lame thing to win in, as we are discussing BIG bores here... and a 225gr pistol bullet is a large hole, not a big bore. and, all else being equal in the ruger gunsite model, this is a bolt gun AND the barrel is threaded .. It depends on what and why you are shooting it. If you have really big stuff in mind then the SOCOM round is lame compared to some fat <=2.8" rounds Ruger could have chosen to put into that action, 450 Marlin for example. You also forget how many deer, bear, and elk have been shot in the USA with 300 grain 45-70 bullets. It is easy to find 300gr and 325gr bullets made for the Bushmaster. Again, it depends on what you want if for. More than 99% of the people who buy that rifle will never use it on anything larger than black bear or elk. Offering it in .458 SOCOM wouldn't change that to any significant degree.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

If you aren't going to go suppressed then I think it's a tossup.

no, not really - in a ruger bolt gun, 35k psi is the BOTTOM loading... So, hot loading the .458 SOCOM gives it an edge? You can hot load the Bushmaster too. Remember, the Bushmaster is based on the 64,000 psi .284 case. If we start going there we should also mention that 350gr and 400gr .458 bullets can easily be sized to .452 for use in the Bushmaster. And in the Ruger action you could load long bullets out in the Bushmaster freeing up a lot of powder space but if you try that very much in the SOCOM you will start running out of neck. But all that is conjecture and hyperbole. I was talking about using the rounds as they were designed.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Which brings us back to the point. Ruger is offering a couple of inexpensive rifles

the POINT is they missed the point -- IIRC the one off license fee for a socom (and I've told marty this was a bad idea) is $25 -- the tooling cost difference is ZERO than if offered in the A $25 licensing fee at production would increase the retail price of the rifle $50 or more depending on Ruger's margin and the margins of the distributors and retailers. Maybe Ruger didn't want to do that. Surely, Ruger personnel discussed the SOCOM as a possible chambering and, obviously, made what they thought was the best choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
in the .450 Bushmaster. I think they made a good choice for those.

i realize you think this, i disagree, especially when we are talking about big bores

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Remember, the .458 SOCOM is proprietary.

no - not exactly -- it's LICENSED and a commercially available, with anyone can buy anything around it, except the reamer - YES, exactly! That is why it is licensed. The proprietary owner can choose to be a sole source or they can license the rights. That is what being proprietary means.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Maybe Ruger couldn't make the right deal to keep the prices where they wanted,

i expect the per 10,000 licensing cost would come in close to $5 per gun.. might be as low as $2 .. this is a non-issue For a manufacturer to decide to become a signatory to a licensing agreement just so they can manufacture their product is always an issue -- regardless of the cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
maybe there was some other reason. Brass for the SOCOM is also proprietary

NOPE - dead wrong -- commercially available No you are not correct. It may be commercially available but it is proprietary. The people making the brass, loading the ammo, and selling anything that says .458 SOCOM on it are paying royalties. It is proprietary and the royalties add to the cost. And they don't just add the cost of the royalty. No company adds only $1 to the cost of something they paid a $1 royalty on. They all add more, usually commensurate with their margin for that type of product.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
but not so for the .450 Bushmaster. Maybe that was factored in. Or maybe Ruger wanted to use a SAAMI standardized cartridge.

let's just say that SAAMI doesn't actually MEAN anything - it's VOLUNTARY -- Taken directly from their website "Voluntary Industry Performance Standards
for Pressure and Velocity
of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition
for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers" http://saami.org/specification...AAMI_CFR.pdf#page=13

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The .458 SOCOM is not a SAAMI cartridge.

means very little -- You are correct. SAAMI compliance is voluntary. But SAAMI provides a means of standardization. Try to find one, just one, commercial ammunition manufacturer, other than a one man bubba shop, that is loading ammunition to pressures that exceed the SAAMI standard. SAAMI has become and is an industry standard. Any company loading ammunition to pressures that exceeds those standards would immediately be on the losing end of a product liability lawsuit. My guess is that Ruger wanted to use a round that meets an industry wide standard for manufacture. Frankly, I don't blame them.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier: Still, if Ruger had made these rifles in .458 SOCOM I would be telling you they are a nice idea and it would be silly to buy one just to re-barrel it to .450 Bushmaster.

i agree -the use cases are overlapping, but discrete

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
When you look at the SOCOM compared to the Bushmaster it looks like a much bigger and formidable cartridge. It's got that oohhh! factor. But it's all show. Because of the extra girth the SOCOM's pressure must be held back to prevent excessive backthrust.

NO -- factually incorrect -- as backthrust isn't a gunsmithing term, i assume you mean bolt-thrust, which is defined (slightly incorrectly) as surface area of casehead * PSI - properly it is max internal diameter to be used to determine theoretical surface area *psi, though the rule of thumb of casehead works fine ... you'll note that's * psi ..in your next setting, you mention the bushmaster is loaded to a higher pressure - which means higher boltthrust Yes, bolt thrust is the correct term. My error, it was late and some of my aerospace ordnance days were creeping back into my tired brain. But I was correct about it. The bolt thrust is correctly determined by the greatest internal diameter at the base of the case, not the case head area. You may use the case head to get approximate values, especially for doing preliminary case comparisons, but these two cases serve as an example of why that only works if the cases being compared are similar in design. The SOCOM round is considerably fatter and it DOES generate considerably more bolt thrust than the Bushmaster at the same pressure. People who try loading these rebated rim cartridges and don't allow for that end up ripping up bolts and breaking barrel extensions. And, yes, that is the reason NEITHER of these cartridges is loaded to 55,000 psi. The Bushmaster is loaded to lower pressure and the SOCOM is loaded to pressures lower still.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
So, while the .450 Bushmaster is a 40,000 psi cartridge the .458 SOCOM is only a 35,000 psi cartridge.

well, no, and which is it? as we are talking about a bolt gun, the socom, just like EVERY OTHER ROUND, can be loaded warmer than in a gas gun .. everyone with a garand knows this -- but, which it is? you quote not saami and then load a "well known" max load ... as you can see, saami means NOTHING.. and, oh, btw, saami doesn't express load data, only bullet and pressure

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
That evens them up pretty well.

only in a gas gun, which isn't the circumstances we are discussing - Again, what I said above. If you can load one up then you can load the other up as well. Long bullets could be made or sized for the Bushmaster and the Bushmaster design would be a little better for extending long bullets to a cartridge OAL of 2.8". Any differences remaining after that would be minimal, and depending on bullet used might favor one over the other. But I was considering these two cartridges as they exist in loaded form and as they were designed to be loaded.

quote:

GREAT pic

I think so too. But it's not my picture.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Cold Trigger Finger: Check out the web site for Grice Gun Shop In Clearfield, PA. I believe they are offering the scout rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor for $900. Limited availability!

Thank you !!! I found one on Armslist yesterday . But it had sold or for some reason was listed as No Longer Available.

The nearest gun emporium said they have 5 of the Ruger American 450's on order. I reserved one when they come in. With all the custom bullet makers out there it would be no problem to have anything you want made up in .452, the same as .458 and I have a crap load of .452 bullets on hand.
I used a Marlin 45/70 with 350 grn Horn flatpoints one trip to Namibia. It would shoot broadside through kudu and Gemsbok, and had no trouble with Eland either. The rifle stayed there with my left handed friend ( yes all legally done) who has used it a great deal. If it works well, then the 450 BM should too.

and it's still one's a big pistol round, and one's a small bigbore rifle round ..

i doubt any critter in NA would know the difference

NO, NON, NYET, BOGUS, NOT EVEN...Very bad definition and is totally ludicrous in todays world...How many other cartridges are around, both past and present, that were used in BOTH pistol and rifle platforms????????

That definition can only be used instantaneously depending on the INDIVIDUAL shooting platform at the time of firing and that definition is even suspect if the cartridge happens to be shot in a non-rifle, non pistol platform like a short barreled receiver clamped in a vise.

Ludicrous to the extreme but so is this mundane argument as it get into the mindset of the poster which is ALWAYS suspect due to all the bias we all develop over time.

They are what they are... CARTRIDGES ...THAT CAN BE FIRED IN ANY APPROPRIATE BARREL/RECEIVER for the enjoyment, pleasure and usefulness of the shooter...no more, no less.

Luck

Just talked to a fellow with a 450 BM on an AR platform. He shoots mostly gaschecked cast in his. 320 grn bullet and Lil'gun @ 1900 fps from a 16" barrel. He said sizing win or rem 405's down to .452 is easy as the jackets are so thin, the 350 Horn take some muscle. He runs the .405's at 1550 fps.
Sounds like socom vel to me. He said in a boltgun it would be easy to go up from there, but didn't think it would gain much trajectory drop as the bullets are no vld's!

If want to rebarrel a Ruger Gunsite Scout, there's always the .284win cartridge as host for bore of your choice....

The .500 case diameter with mildly rebated head, gives the best option for a short action big-bore round on standard boltface.

I would look at .338/284 for the bullet choices, but .358 and .378 bores are all doable. Then there might be enough shoulder for a .40.

How cool would a 10mm Auto handgun teamed with a 10mm/284 be?

Then again, there are some .44mag Ruger 77s; at least I think I've seen them around.

You want the magazine capacity? There's also the Marlin 1894 that holds 11 .44 mags and has a flat top for easy scope mounting... What kinda range you figuring on getting from one of these blaster ctgs?

I was onboard for the Socom about 8yrs ago, but just because you can do it on an AR platform don't make either sensical.

The AR-10 will give you more than a Ruger Scout.... Armalite used to chamber them in .300rem SAUM. You can chamber an AR-10 in .450 Marlin! There is some power!


I did have a 6mm/22-250 AI on AR-10 for a while. The 15 imho works best with 75/77gr bthp, and the 10 with 168/175 bthp. For hunting I found the Speer 180 Grand Slam a great choice for compact size.


For A REAL Woodswalking gun; get A Ruger Guide Gun in .375 Ruger and handload. 250gr up to 335gr cast boolits, 225-350gr jacketed & solids? Load the 260gr Partition and call it all good!

That's versatility!

Want a Big Bore scout rifle?

The Ruger Guide Guns in .375ruger and .416ruger magnum will do the trick. Handload them to mild velocity or with light bullets and with the .375 you have a versatile rifle beyond compare. Cast your own for plinking or huntig use. The .375 bullet selection is extremely versatile.

Controlled Round Feed action...
20" barrel with integral scope base system.

The grendel and other AR-15 length rounds are pop guns. The .450 Marlin will run in an AR-10. Neck up a SAUM and you have lots of options...

Yet, for the $$ the .375ruger is extremely versatile. 225gr to 350gr with match quality bullets, solids, and boat tails all available.

If you don't handload, well... you're just missing both fun and opportunity! Blow off that Scout rifle concept stuff. The forward located Leupold intermediate 2.5x thing is a pig and developed long before there were acogs and other sighting options. Mount a dot or holoscope in QD base on the forward receiver bridge, and install an aperture on the rear, upgrade to a better viz dot on the forward sight. What more do you need?

Then there is the Marlin 1894 in .44mag with an illum scope or electronic. 11 in the tubular magazine. 180 to 300+gr hardcast. As if you need more power in a brush gun application.

A super redhawk in .454 Casull is more versatile than a rifle in .450 bushmaster. Scope the handgun and carry it in a chest scabbard. .45 Colt and .45 Schofield for milder loads. If you don't want the power of a Casull, why tote a rifle?

Phewie! I love a good discussion...it's always amazing how people hate or love a cartridge/gun/model.

I have a few Rugers...416 Rigby, couple .22's (rifles and old MkI pistol) and even a P85 9mm....2 months ago bought the Scout in 450 Bushmaster. Never shot factory ammo, just my reloads (and being cheap for right now and getting to know the rifle, use 230 grain plated bullets. So far, I'm hitting 1" at 100 yards off a rest. Holy Cow! no complaints from me. It works. Won't use the front scope mount...if I use a scope it'll be in back. Probably will just use the peep sight...I don't consider it more than 100 yard rifle.

You can cast your own bullets for heavier weights...Just put a 458/45-70 bullet through a sizer and stick a gas check on it....easy!