A friend of mine had a double 4 bore (rifled barrels) built for him a couple of years ago. Uses custom turned brass cases that are set up for shotgun primers. He wasn't able to get consistant ignition with large rifle primers...hasn't had a problem since he switched to magnum shotgun primers. I don't remember what load he uses, I know he has a 2000 gr jacketed bullet being propelled by blue dot I think. If you're interested I can get his exact load from him.

Have got HE 2 bore cases set up....Steel, 5 inches long,

1.225 bore. To make cases I only need lathe work.Found supply of barrels, using 30 mm barrel sections

of the same bore. In picture is case with 3500 gr bullet,

and a muzzle barrel section from a 30mm cannon, 39 inches

long.These are 250 bucks;breech sections are heavier and cost 395 bucks I think. Muzzle section has intregal flange

you see in pic, that can be use to anchor pivot pin and

lug block to barrel(silver solder) to make a break action.The block would butt up to flange so that solder

wouldn't have to hold forward barrel thrust.And remove rest of flange

not needed on sides and top of barrel..

Barrels are rifled, with deep rifling and fast twist. Me,

I would ream out to smoothbore and use cast, nose heavy foster type slugs of 3000 grains or thereabouts.(reamers easy to find). The twist is fast enough to stabilize 4500 gr slugs if needed, and you want to use rifled. Muzzle section is heavy enough for

25k loads, with these super strong cases. Steel cases will last forever, probably not

needing resizing if using 10-15k loads.25k loads will give 35-40,000 ft lb loads,

if you want, in a 30 lb gun built as a break action.

12k loads would give 15,000 ft lbs.

If you use the thicker muzzle section and build in a falling block, set up as a cannon,

or mount into a huge action, you could get 80,000 ft lbs,

over twice the ME.I can make cases and found big boxer

primers, that don't need adapters. This as smoothbore,

could also shoot 15-18 50 or 54 cal balls for a super buckshot load.

On my 4 bore progress I will have press and dies in a little

while to make 4 bore brass.They need a little swaging to make them and i made heavier dies and a heavier press.

And tooling at Badger is getting set

up, so 4 bore barrels should be ready to be made in a few weeks.Ed

Uh, you got anything bigger?

Ed,
HFS!!!

You know, you've got a driveway culvert for a barrel there, right?

Might look at the 20mm phalanx cases for your next round... steel.. and would be a bottlenecked 2 bore!!!

keep up the good work

jeffe

Ed, you never ceast to amaze us! Fantastic!

Ed

Shorten the barrel a tad, mount it on a swivel,and yore good to repel boarders.20 54cal balls should sink their boat too.

Rich

RR-Just the thing for shotgun only deer areas here in MI.
Don't think feds would allow it for geese with 8 oz
of number 2s.
Bwana and Minkman-I'm just amazed Big Al too,and I can find
military stuff to make a one bore.
Jeff- Can we use stuff this big on pigs. I wish I had
time and machinery to make a break action real fast.I
wonder if we could make action and stock in one piece from
heat treated aluminum solid billit, as we need weight and strength.The flange on barrel makes adding the block for
pivot and lugs easier and very strong.Ed.

Ed: Dunno if I would want that thing anywhere near my shoulder, but with a Whitworth-style cannon breech and mounted on an oak and iron carriage, it would make up into a delightful reduced-scale light rifle for black powder artillery matches.

Is there a benchrest class for that thing?

For $2900 you can get a NIB Gau-8 30mm Barrel here,
Sheeze it's big!

AND the brass and projectiles!!!

Me, I'm just gonna get a LEUP and build my own rocket launcher! (for Target shooting, hunting and self protection only)

Ed, you are one sick puppy! I gotta figure out an excuse to use on Wifezilla for something like this.

What bore diameter for your 4 bore? And what action will you be using for the 4 bore?

Mike-- The 4 bore barrels will be .998 as that matches what Badger was making military 25 mm for size. we just helped him make tooling for shallower rifling and slower twist. He still has 12 tons of barrel stock left over to make them with. That also matches the .998 size bullets that Naval

Ordnance makes, lead and jacxketed. I also is perfect for

the 4 bore brass I make from 20 mm brass. Which is what got me started on these 4-2-etc bore cases.I was thinking of making a falling block breech in the end of the barrel, IE barrel and breech in one.Mount a socket for a stock like Martini.Add plates below breech to house gear that works

the breech and trigger, etc.The State Arms bmg action may be big enough.I am checking on them, as they are less than half of other actions.The huge Borchardt 50 cal

falling block action should be big enough.Good quality

and cost a little. Others are talking about building their own break actions.Fritz454 is designing a roller lock breech action that will be big.Badger's barrels will have 2 5/8

diameter so a flange can be left on bottom to make mounting

pivot and lug blocks for break actions,easy and strong.

Bill-Rooster-Here we have pumpkin shooting with cannons. Be good for that....Redneck Benchrest I guess.

Collins--That barrel section is half of a GAU-8 barrel.

And the rifling looks new also.

Fjold--Must be the long winter.And being encouraged by

Big Al who is almost as crazy as me...Ed..

Collins--That is who I got barrel sections from
and the military cases to make the 2 bore case.He has lots
of goodies. The 30mm shooters set up with his stuff making
various types of cannons are spending big bucks per round to shoot. I figure the system with 2
bore I have set up even as a cannon can be fired for 5-6
bucks a shot, with a 80 cent primer, buck and half of slow surplus powder(1000 gr),3000gr cast bullet 3 bucks of lead.
Once you have cases and barrel on something to shoot.
To load test and check cases and pressures, I may make a screw on breech, with barrel on a big iron block I have here. I don't like muzzle brakes but will port barrel
with about 8 1/4 inch holes to hold muzzle down..Ed.

Ed now you are getting into the category of firearm an Australian could quite legally fire on mobs of game at a time.


Karl.

Karl- An 8oz shotload from 2 bore should gather in
those rabbits you folks have.And with velocity to
have good penetration.Don't know if you folks could get
barrel sections imported to you or have a supply over
there.Ed.

ed

what have you get now for a basic case?

ed
can you give me land and groove diameter of the 30mm barrels?

pwm--I make these two bore cases from 27mm Nato steel
cases, 27 x 145B the official designation.Cut them off at
the shoulder leaving a 5 in case.Take off belt and shape the side taper a little steeper, leaving a rimmed case that is much closer to the official 2 bore mathematical size than Eley and others.Ream out the inside a small amount to
get to diameter of the 30 mm barrels The 30 mm barrels have groove diameter of 1.225 as I measure it, and land(bore)
diameter is 1.180. As you can see rifling is deeper than needed for our use.And we have figured out that we can't
shoot any loads with any more energy from the shoulder with a 2 bore, than what we can do with our 4 bore, and these barrels and cases are available(IE no one has to set up to make them), we just will make a big smoothbore gun. So I plan reaming out rifling and honing bore smooth.We can cast lead hollow base slugs cheaper than buying hot rolled brass to make slugs on a lathe. And use with shot also. Use black powder or real slow surplus powder.Ed

allso think that you have to stand with blackpowder pressure loads. the rifling is of course very deep. it will be work with fosbery style slugs.

pwm--We think we can use hollowbase Foster type slugs

with bore smooth and get accuracy like we have with our

other slug guages now. With a scope or good aperture

sights like on my break action 12,we can get 2-4 in groups

at 50 yds. And like you say smooth helps to keep pressure

down. From my experiments on long straight cases, real slow military powder will be nearly identical peak pressure as black powder, around 20k psi if bullet isn't real heavy.. But due to the more progressive action and

more energy of the

slow military powder(longer pressure curve, with more area under the curve), you will get more velocity..Ed.

Gringo wrote in a post that was just above this one of mine---------
"A friend of mine had a double 4 bore (rifled barrels) built for him a couple of years ago. Uses custom turned brass cases that are set up for shotgun primers. He wasn't able to get consistant ignition with large rifle primers...hasn't had a problem since he switched to magnum shotgun primers. I don't remember what load he uses, I know he has a 2000 gr jacketed bullet being propelled by blue dot I think. If you're interested I can get his exact load from him.""

And I answered----

gringo--Yes all the info you can give us will help.<br />Need the exact bore. Powder and charge. Case length and<br />wads, etc that he uses. This info will help the guys with Tula 4bores get started also.Is this 4bore double your<br />friend has,one of the guns that Ken Owen in the Memphis area built, set up to use Naval Ordnance 2000gr .998 dia jacketed bullets? Our 4 bore size will use same diameter bullets.The 4bore brass we are making from 20mm brass will use 20 mm boxer primers so there definitely will be no ignition problems. Ed.

"Found supply of barrels, using 30 mm barrel sections..........."

Who has the barrels? Are they for sale to anyone else?

Scot--Bigsky Surplus has 30mm barrel sections, as <br />Collins mentioned above.And whole barrels. You can get muzzle or breech sections. If you get muzzle section,have<br />them make sure it has the flange on it as that makes mounting pivot and lug block easier.I am making a mockup<br />of a pivot block set to barrel, and will post it tomorrow.<br />Their phone----509-535-9486...Hope you build one.
Here is barrel picture with mockup of a pivot block on it that we made to show how it would butt up to the flange on the barrel.. In picture the 2bore case, 4bore case, and 458Win for in a row for comparision..Ed

I posted this two minutes before the site went down and I think it was lost in transition. So here it is.

Ken Owens load data for 4 bore:

Fed Mag shotgun primer
112gr blue dot
1/8" card wad over powder
three 3/4" grey felt wads
a single 3/8" white felt wad
2000gr bullet
light crimp (neck tension holds bullet)

Out of his rifles (22.5" barrels, 12 lands and groves, .985 land, 1.000 grove, 1 in 60 twist) he was getting 1400fps. Ken still makes reloading dies for the 4 bore.

My friend still has his Owen 4 bore for sale. It was engraved by Philip Grifnee, hasn't been shot execpt for regulation. He's asking 75k. His rifle was featured in the Double Gun Journal, v. 12, no. 1, Spring 2001 on p. 53ff.

I hope the load data is helpful.

Gringo--Thanks for info, and that is tremendous help.By seeing that data we can figure that
an 80 gr starting load for shorter Tula 4bore with 2 3/4 in wads will work for Tula guys,
and using a lighter 1500 gr bullet.Tula has thin barrel so use lighter loads and bullets.
With their 3 in cases. For those with heavier barrel 4bore and 4 in cases we have info to start with, for those wanting to use shotgun
powders.. That gun of your friend is nice
and I wish I could get it.
The price is reason so many who want 4 bores,
have to build their own.Below is picture I
promised of 2 bore barrel,
with mockup block on the bottom butted up to the flange, that would be used in making a
break action.Ed

Ed, Please keep us posted on progress. I am very interested in the 4 bore project. Mike Scott

Mike here is picture of bigger top plate on the right on the bench with 2 in threads,for press.
It will go on press in place of 1.5 inch top.
Which I use for 700He and 12GA FH on down. Also in pic is various holders, adapters and various dies. Note the two inch
die bodies I am working on to swage and
shape the 4 bore cases. In the press ram is a 20mm holder.I also strengthened and
changed pivots on press linkage to give more
power to swage big cases.Machine in background is the case spinner/lathe I set up to do the belts, shaping, and other case work.Ed.

For those of you thinking of 2 and 4 bores,
for the 4 bore, take a good look at the State
Arms bolt action. Shellholder action, super strong(tested to 5 time regular BMG loads), and looks nice. It is a way to get started at
good price and when Badger starts barrel for
4 bores, a whole bunch of folks can get them going.I can fix our brass cases to fit shellholder ok.But we also need someone to make a big break action, especially to put the
2 bore barrels on that we can get by using 30mm
barrels. Anybody out there with machine and
time to build some.Like a scaled up TCR 83 or
87?? Ed.

Does anyone have a picture of the Borchardt action? Or a complete rifle? Mike Scott

Mike- I have this one I took off of their
brochure.It is big and strong, 12lbs for action, 2.25 in wide. Can be slimmed down
a little for
smaller cases like BMG, 700NE, etc.Ed

Looking at that picture of the 2 bore, 4 bore, and 458 Win side by side ...

my brain keeps trying to say that .458 is a .22 mag or something.

It's just hard to grasp that scope.

Do you think you could maybe put a ruler and/or a .22 LR case in the picture as well so I can show it to some folks around here.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hubel458:
Can be slimmed down
a little for
smaller cases like BMG, 700NE, etc.Ed

---

For some reason that strikes me as funny.

Thanks for the picture. That looks like a heavy/chunky rifle for actually carrying around and hunting. Based on my 4 bore muzzleloader, 14 lbs is too light but I was thinking of a top end weight of about 20 lbs. What are the chances you could make a 4 bore / 50 bmg switch barrel on the Borchart action and keep the weight down a bit? And, since you have looked at the State Arms rifle, have you looked at the other "cheap" 50 bmg rifle and AR15 upper conversions as a source (Serbu, Ferret, ALS, Watson)?

Mike- Yes,14 lbs is too light. If you are using shotgun type pressures, the Borchardt could be lightened 2 lbs, and if not using a real heavy barrel, you could get wt down to 20-22 lbs.
As best I can figure, none of those you mention
would work for 4bore. From pics I can see
and what they said bolt diameter is,The Hesse Arms shellholder 50 BMG
action, now called the Vulcan Arms Co, may be
big enough diameter bolt for 4 bore rim.
I wish companies made detailed sketches, with
a list of measurements.It would help. I wish
I could afford a Lahti to just use as a test action, with all my calibers, changing barrels,
and long extension on ski mounts with tires in
place of skis.Just wheel it up to chrono and
start blasting.

Gringo--Could you please post the base and
mouth sizes of the 4bore brass your friends gun uses. The post that you had that info on got
lost in the switch over. Also has your friend hunted dangerous game with the gun?.Ed

Ed, I appreciate your efforts to encourage more folks to try the really big bores and share our illness. Once you do you can never go back!

I have some lathe turned brass that measures as follows:

rim 1.188
rim thickness: .119
1.091 OD just ahead of the rim
1.026 OD at the mouth
1.015-1.018 ID at the mouth
.008-.010 thickness at the mouth

After .800 from the mouth the ID decreases to .95" So far I haven't had to resize due to the thickness and low pressures. This is an average of 3 cases measured w/2 calipers. There is a fair amount of variation and I currently have an order in w/RMC to get more uniform ones(Dave has my chamber cast so I can't give those dim). As a means of comparison they hold about 690gns of goex cartridge if filled to the top.

I'm relatively new to this business and have only used bp so far. I have a bunch of rounds loaded between 8 and 14 drams of 1F and FFg that I hope to chrony over the next few weekends (if my shoulder/brain holds out, my limit is 3rds per day). I'm only planning 1-3 rounds per charge, but hope to get a somewhat useful idea of the powder/recoil/velocity trade off. If all goes as planned I'll pm you the results.

I'm also very interested in any smokeless data that anyone might have. I plan to try blue dot down the road but first want to find an accurate bp load along with a 'reasonable' practice/hunting load.

Bob

Bob-What gun do you have, and what is exact bore.What is the weght of your gun?Who made your present cases and how long are they? Do you cast your own bullets, or use
others, and what weight? We will all be waiting to see your shooting results. Please post them here.Ed.

n/a-- our bullets and barrels are going
to be .998..I plan on setting up a State
Arms bolt action, and use it for my other
cartridges as well, by changing barrels
and bolts..Ed