Hello folks.

Well, its confirmed... We all knew that Nosler was coming out with a 300Gr .375 Accubond for 2008, but they are also coming out with a 260gr and 300gr monolithic solid bullet!!! This is great news! Check out the link below:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...id=993156&t=11082005

Merry Christmas to you all!

Maurice

Why are solids more expensive than softpoints?

Even the Partitions which have to be more complicated to make are cheaper.

winchester will be loading them in their safari ammo.

375

416 Rem and Rigby

458 Winchester

See this link..

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrlist.aspx?bn=5&type=73

sure wish they made a 450gr .458 and .475 partition

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Why are solids more expensive than softpoints?

Even the Partitions which have to be more complicated to make are cheaper.

Material cost is higher in solid and manufacturing process is significantly more expensive. You get what you pay for! (or sometimes less)

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Why are solids more expensive than softpoints?

Even the Partitions which have to be more complicated to make are cheaper.

Material cost is higher in solid and manufacturing process is significantly more expensive. You get what you pay for! (or sometimes less)

I don't understand this.

What material is different? I'm not talking about Tungsten cores, etc. but just the normal solids. Most solids are just standard cup and core bullets with extra heavy cups.

How is the maunfacturing process "significantly" more expensive than making the Partition? Since the Partitions have the double cups and cores and seperate nose and heel dies?

quote:

What material is different? I'm not talking about Tungsten cores, etc. but just the normal solids. Most solids are just standard cup and core bullets with extra heavy cups.

This is not true. Hornaday tried it and went back to steel jackets because of the failure of its non steel jacketed solids. Woodeigh solids feature steel jackets too. The Speer Trophy Bonded solids are made of a stouter material than copper, it may be bronze, and a lead core, but they are reported to fail too often, especially in 375H&H - but I have no personal experience with them. The discontinued Speer African Grand Slams had a steel jacket and a tungstun core.

North Fork and GS Custom are solid copper through and through, Barnes are brass I think, through and through also.

JPK

Ok! Lets get some of the facts up here so everyone is one the same page.

1) To my knowledge - Woodleigh has never nor do they now make a solid IE true monometal bullet. Their Solid is still a cup & core which is a formed steel cup with a gilding metal jacket and a lead core. This, other than the cup being steel, is no different than any other bullet out there.

2) All cup & core bullets are made on stamping/swaging/punch machines which are mostly automated relatively innaccurate in tolerance and super cheap to operate.

3) Lead is damn near free relative to copper/brass/bronze alloys. Cheap bullets are made with lots of cheap and toxic lead!

4) The AGS does not have a steel jacket. It's a 464 bronze jacket with a pressed in tungsten core.

5) High quality bullets are produced from extruded material which is then machined to form in either a CNC lathe, Screw machine, or similar.

I just saw them listed in one a flyers I rec'd in the mail yesterday.

Description:
375 300gr FP DGAME
416 400gr FP DGAME
458 500gr FP DGAME

quote:

1) To my knowledge - Woodleigh has never nor do they now make a solid IE true monometal bullet. Their Solid is still a cup & core which is a formed steel cup with a gilding metal jacket and a lead core. This, other than the cup being steel, is no different than any other bullet out there.

Gotta get a kick out of this. Non deforming (or hopefully non deforming) dangerous game bullets have been "solids" for more than a century, long before todays mono metal solids made their respective debuts.

If anyone has had the opportunity to see a Woodleigh sectioned, you have seen that the steel jacket is extremely thick at the nose and not uniform but shaped to provide the strength where it is needed. It is also all but closed at the base with just a small round hole in the steel jacket. Hardly the same as a standard cup and core. Honaday likewise. I've never recovered a Woodleigh with a damaged nose, btw.

Here is the AGS description:
African solids also start as solid bars of gilding metal. The exterior is machined to shape and the interior is drilled to accept the core. And what a core! Instead of lead, we use a rod of tungsten carbide that's 30 percent denser than lead. The result is a full-weight yet compact bullet that allows more powder to be loaded. In the 458 Winchester Magnum, you can gain 600 foot-pounds of energy over conventional 500 grain bullets and still maintain safe pressures. The dense material concentrated on the centerline combined with the flat point make the African Solid incredibly stable for deep, straight-line penetration. They're simply the best solid on the market.

Apparently the site that I pulled this from still has them in stock if anyone is interested. They listed 300grs for the 375's, 400grs for 416's and 500grs for 458's. Wish I could try them on an elephant or two, but they are a no go for double rifles.

JPK

quote:

Gotta get a kick out of this. Dangerous game solids have been solids for more than a century, long before todays mono metal solids made their respective debuts.

Yeah Ok!

So those 100 year technology bullets are made from "solid" what??

Empire era marketing wouldn't you say? Solid in name only.

I've seen them, shot them, and dumpstered them. Wouldn't use them for anything other than a museum display. But, of course, I have a reputation of ill regard for obsolete stuff.

Which DG caliber rifles do you currently operate JPK? I'm asking in case you might want to try out something a little more modern!

Since I prefer hunting for elephants, I use North Fork's flat nose solids. They provide better penetration than the round noses. But their are no flys on the Woodleighs. About half of the eleven elephants I have killed were killed with Woodleighs, the other half with North Forks.

Three of the four cape buffalo that I have killed were with Woodleighs. Woodleigh solids are perfect for buff. The North Fork flat nose solids penetrate too much, if there is such a thing. I had one go into the spine atop the hips and exit the neck just in front of the back of the head and then renter the skull and exit the boss.

Here is a photo. The buff was running away from me after my first and second shots, both into the front shoulder quartering on. He was heading down a slight hill at about 50yds. You can see blood where the bullet entered and if you look closely you can see the hole where it exited the boss, on the right side as you look at the photo. The exit is the dark spot.



Woodleighs were used on this bull, note the exit (in the wet spot) for the insurance side brain shot.



JPK

Nice photos! I'd say "overpenetration" could absolutely be a problem with a well designed FN and a well developed load. Makes sense to tailor the equipment to the task if possible.

quote:

Makes sense to tailor the equipment to the task if possible.

This is the issue for sure. But a good solid will always do the job.

Once I arrived back at the truck after a long and fruitless walk for elephants. To my absolute horror, I found a soft point in one of my barrels despite what I thought was rigorous double checking of what ammo went where in my belt and what went into the rifle. That was the last day I carried a soft point in my ammo belt loops until I bought a two round slide that stays seperated from the loops on my belt by a multi tool on the belt.

The day I killed the buff in the photo we were on elephant tracks and I'd left the softs in the truck. Caught the elephant later too. Someday I'll get around to killing a buff with a soft.

Here is another target of opportunity taken with a solid while walking for elephants. North Fork I believe.

This is the stereotypical story when using solids on buff.

Blasting away with a handful of solids when one soft would have worked.

quote:

So those 100 year technology bullets are made from "solid" what??

I've always reckoned the term refered to Solid Nosed Bullet just as "Soft" refers to Soft Nosed Bullet.

OK, thanks for the lesson but why are solids twice the price of softs?

The difference in the amount of steel, copper, gilding metal and lead in any solid compared to a soft point is probably 10 cents at the most.

Frank,

That's not the case at all. If you think you can make quality monometal solids for the same price as partitions or whatever you should go for it!! Warren Buffet will pay you for your business saavy no doubt. When you are writing your business proposal you may want to start by sourcing and pricing the proper material per pound or per piece. Then figure out what capital equipment expenditures look like, and follow that up with cost per piece or hour of programming and machine time. Don't forget about tooling either!!

Since you're only a few hours away you could come down some time and see how we make them. The machine we use most is about $250,000 and we have four. You can call Dave Corbin and get his top-o-the-line hydraulic machine (which will fit in your coat closet) for $6,500................and make all the squeezed bullets you want at home.

As far as why Woodleigh charges more for their "Solid" vs their soft you'd better ask them. I'd guess it has something to do with making a trimetal bullet that stays together.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This is the stereotypical story when using solids on buff.

Blasting away with a handful of solids when one soft would have worked.

Will,

I'm sure just one solid would have done the job, but why shoot just once when you can still see and shoot the buff?

BTW, we knew this guy had an issue since he stood his ground while we were following ele tracks. He had a nasty infected wound in between his legs on his right leg. Looked like an infected wound from being hooked by another bull.

Distance buff traveled for the four I've shot with solids:
1- 5yds, frontal chest shot and then second barrel broadside.
2- 0yds, spined him then heart shot him with the second barrel as he was dropping from the spine shot.
3- Miles and miles because of a crappy first shot and a missed second shot.
4- 50yds.

JPK

No problems with solids on buff, if you do your part.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This is the stereotypical story when using solids on buff.

Blasting away with a handful of solids when one soft would have worked.

Ditto.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This is the stereotypical story when using solids on buff.

Blasting away with a handful of solids when one soft would have worked.

Ditto.

Proof that anal sex does occasionally produce a fetus!!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Frank,

That's not the case at all. If you think you can make quality monometal solids for the same price as partitions or whatever you should go for it!! Warren Buffet will pay you for your business saavy no doubt. When you are writing your business proposal you may want to start by sourcing and pricing the proper material per pound or per piece. Then figure out what capital equipment expenditures look like, and follow that up with cost per piece or hour of programming and machine time. Don't forget about tooling either!!

Since you're only a few hours away you could come down some time and see how we make them. The machine we use most is about $250,000 and we have four. You can call Dave Corbin and get his top-o-the-line hydraulic machine (which will fit in your coat closet) for $6,500................and make all the squeezed bullets you want at home.

As far as why Woodleigh charges more for their "Solid" vs their soft you'd better ask them. I'd guess it has something to do with making a trimetal bullet that stays together.

I'm not saying that I can make them better or cheaper or complaining about the price. I am honestly just curious about why solids made by the same company cost more than their premium controlled expansion softpoints.

Making a bullet not deform seems to be a lot easier than making one deform in a controlled manner for every type of shot taken.

I'm not challenging you, I'm just asking the question.

Frank,

I don't know, just guessing, but maybe because of economies of scale and supply/demand pricing curve. There have to be thousands of softs sold for each solid, and thats just counting the dangerous game cartridges.

Along those lines, there are maybe two or three times as many good softs as solids.

JPK

quote:

There have to be thousands of softs sold for each solid,

That would be my read on it. A bullet maker, in order to remain competative, must offer what his public desires. Even when the product is low volume, the investment has to be made in tooling to "stay in the game". Who knows, the manufacturers may be selling the "solids" at a loss even at the higher prices.

Geronimo

quote:

Originally posted by Will:


Here, I try to be nice to you, but it just doesn't work , does it?

You are like 500 grains, an asshole that just can't change his spots.

I am sure there are hundreds of hunters beating down your door for your words of wisdom and experience. Get a life.

And this coming from the unchallenged king of the arrogant ASSHOLES!!

Keep up the good work we have all learned so much from your terse, belittling replies over the years.

Okay Fellas
Its Christmas.. put down your swords for the day and pick them up again tomorrow.

You are right Jeff!

Will

Merry Christmas, you grumpy self righteous old fart!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
This is the stereotypical story when using solids on buff.

Blasting away with a handful of solids when one soft would have worked.

Ditto.

Will,

Explain to me how much faster a buff can die with a soft. But for the crappy shot on the third buff, the three I hit where I intended ran an average of 18.3yds.

They all got more than one solid only because I shoot a double rifle enabling a very quick second shot and because I took the time to practice to insure that recoil doesn't slow me down and so I can reload very quickly as well.

And I'm a firm believer that the following quote, spoken by one of Surestrike's PH's is truly ignorant, "Don't shoot again...you hit him hard on that first one!" And can lead being the, "Famous last words of a trophy fee gone bad..." And so I shoot whatever I'm sooting at so long as it is standing and I can see it.

JPK

JPK, a little off topic, but damn nice looking side lock. More info please. You can PM me.
Geronimo

I don't think manufacturing cost is the only or principal reason for the price of solids. People hunting elephants are willing and able to pay more.