The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Elmer Keith highly recommended Big Bores with Push Feed.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
Not true--with a CRF you would just push the controlled round back in but it wouldnt jam the weapon SSR | |||
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| One of Us |
Agree. However, If someone short strokes an CRF on the rearward motion with a fired case ,on the next forward bolt motion, one would only be rechambering a useless fired case. A PF will eject a case as soon as its lip clears the receiver, one does not need full draw of the bolt. I dont ever recall short stroking on the forward bolt motion when my intention was to fire a round at game, however I have short stroked on the rearward bolt motion hastyly trying to get another round in the chamber to fire at game. If one can manage to dicipline themselves to fully close and fully draw a bolt back in every situation, you wont have any hassles with PF or CRf. If one cant dicipline themselves to do that,they can create problems regardless of PF or CRF. | |||
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one of us |
If someone does not bring the bolt all the way to the rear in either type rifle they have a problem but the CRF feature at least solves the not pushing it forward far enough - or trying to eject a round before closing the bolt. Can any of you push feed fans explain why Paul Mauser would have deserted the simpler push feed design for a control round system ? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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| One of Us |
He was OCD?, A logical evolution of design trends of that era? He had to compete with many other designers for government contracts (common then)? He had some real world combat experience? He though it looked cool? Dunno, lots been written bout Herr Mauser and his work, surely someone with a Mauser obsession knows what he was thinking.  | |||
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one of us |
And if you short stroke that push feed without a full draw, and it ejects the empty, you close the bolt on an EMPTY CHAMBER! The classic short stroak is on the closing, and failing to turn the bolt DOWN! This is the one that may get people killed. Your second paragraph is telling! It is far easier to get in a hurry enough to complete the both all the way forward, actually chambering the round, but failing to turn the bolt down before withdrawing it in which case the round is left in the chamber because the push feed does not take CONTROL of the cartridge till that bolt is turned down. On the push feed either way you short shift, without turning the bolt down, then with a full draw you have two rounds in the loading tray or without a full draw, to the rear, you have an rifle with an empty chamber. With a CRF action at least there is no way to get two rounds in the action at the same time, which is a far worse situation than an empty chamber of empty case which can be cleared with another stroke. With two rounds in the loading port, you have a jam that sometimes requires tools to clear. Phil may know the Bear guide that had this happen with a Rem 700 in Alaska. He short shifted his rifle on a wounded Coastal brown bear, and jammed it so hard trying to get the bolt closed, the he ran both bullets and necks of the two cartridges into the chamber, resulting in a real mauling. It required pliers to remove the two rounds from the chambers. He lived and is still guiding, but is now using a CRF actioned 458 Win Mag. For anyone to think, with death staring you in the face you can’t screw up with a rifle you have been using for years, you are sadly mistaken. I had a friend from my hometown who had used his little 30-30 mod 94 from the age of 12 years till when he was 22 years old to take three or four whitetail deer every year, but had never even seen a Mule deer, or a whitetail that weighed over 80 pounds in his life. He came out to west Texas to hunt mule deer with me! The first one he saw was a real buster of about 12 point rack, that got up from bushes almost under our feet, and headed for the canyon rim to escape. In the next 150 yards of the deer’s run, my friend emptied the little 94 as the deer went over the side out of sight 150 yards away. At that point my friend ask me, “DID I HIT HIM?” To which I replied “NO!” because you never fired a shot! His answer to that was “BULL” I ran out of ammo! He did but all seven cartridges were on the ground around our feet STILL LOADED! He had jacked every round out of that rifle he was so used to, and never pulled the trigger once! At that point he said “I’ll kill you if you tell anybody about this!”. Well if he wants to kill me after 50 years later for telling, I hope he gets rattled again, and doesn’t pull the trigger! Now gentlemen this was only buck fever caused by seeing a deer getting up just under his feet, that looked like a MOOSE to him because that deer was three time as large as any deer he had ever seen. What do you think would have happened to this guy with a wounded Brown bear, or a cape buffalo bearing down on him like a freight train? NOW tell me you can’t short shift a bolt rifle simply because you have practiced! Even with the most reliable rifle in the world, a big bore double rifle, one man was killed by a buffalo he had just shot because of an automatic safety on a double he had used for years. He fired one shot on the buff, but didn’t put him right down. The buff just took a couple steps into the bush out of sight. The client hunter broke the rifle and re-loaded the fired chamber and as he closed the rifle the bull charged from about 12 yards. The client mounted the rifle and stood there, aiming till the buff hit him just as the PH fired on the buff which also didn’t stop the bull. Before the PH could kill the buff the client hunter was dead. They couldn’t figure why he had not fired on the charging bull and just assumed the client had frozen, till the looked at his rifle. The front trigger was broken off! He had pull it so hard trying to shoot the bull, with the safety ON that he broke the trigger off! When the client had re-loaded that first barrel, he forgot the AUTO safety because as soon as the rifle was closed he was faced with a concentrated charge at close quarters. Both these people were veterans with their rifles, but when the S.H.T.F sometimes training goes out the window, and don’t think because you have used a rifle for twenty years you are amune, because you are not, and a simple thing like CRF, or a manual safety can be the difference between dieing or living. As I said in my post earlier, “Use what you want but don't cry over that choise when it bites you in the butt! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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| one of us |
Every time I think about old Elmer, I remember his claim to have hit a running deer at 600 yards two out of four shots with a .44 magnum. Sure thing Elmer! | |||
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One of Us |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoeR: Every time I think about old Elmer, I remember his claim to have hit a running deer at 600 yards two out of four shots with a .44 magnum. Sure thing Elmer![/QUOTE I believe Ole Elmer pulled that shot off. I know a guy that shot an Antelope that was getting away after another hunter wounded him with a 25-06 rifle. Jack dropped that Antelope at 620 steps with a M-29 44 mag revovler, it was quite impressive _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| one of us |
Mac's description of why Mauser designed the CRF is exactly the same as my theory. I do know the AK guide who was mauled due to short stroking his 416 and over the years have seen others hunters who have also "short stroked" their rifles. It is not that uncommon with folks under stress - like young military recruits in horrific combat during Mauser's time. I even did it on my first whitetail when I was a kid, so I know how it happens and feels. I walked around a corner and there was a buck standing there feeding only 15 yards in front of me. I jacked out almost a full clip of loaded ammo from my 30-40 Krag and thought I was firing. Eventually I noticed the buck was still standing and looking at me, I slowed down and actually chambered the last round and killed the buck. Had I been using a PF action I would have been trying to unjam my rifle after the second round while the buck ran off. At least it wasn't a bear or buffalo trying to kill me. Mike, The military uses new ammo and those of us who hunt dangerous game are anal about our ammo but your experiences add another completely different set of circumstances to the issue. If you are using sub-standard ammo then I can see where a PF action might work best. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Is that why your daughter Ruger failed to feed the Hornady DGX. Is Hornady sub standard ammo? The Ruger is a CRF and a failure to feed is just as negative as short stroking in time of need. So where is the superiority of the CRF? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
I did the same thing the first time I hunted alone. Stepped around a boulder and there was a small mulie buck about 75 yds away i the trail. I emptied my moms Savage M99 at him, he smiled at me and walked off. at my feet was a pile of unfired rounds. BTW a M99 and and M 94 are CRF. To a point trax made: If you short stroke a CRF and put a fired case back in the chamber, all you need to do is recycle, thats not a Malf, just cycle again. SSR | |||
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| One of Us |
Agree. its not a malfunction of the CRF, and neither is an PF malfunctioning when short stroked leaving a round in the chamber, both are the direct result of misuse/operator error. A malfunction is when the receiver has failed/ceased to work as designed. misuse [misˈjuːs] (a) wrong or bad use 1. to use wrongly. mal·func·tion (ml-fngkshn) breakdown ,defective, faulty 1. To fail to function. 2. To function improperly. n. 1. Failure to function. 2. Faulty or abnormal functioning. | |||
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| one of us |
There are many documented very long shots by Elmer with handguns that seem to be far fetched to folks today. Another one was when four guys, two of them writers Elmer and someone ease I don't remember who, and A rancher driving the car, with the other man a very rich hunter. This rich man commented on Elmer carrying a little snubnosed Colt detective special 38 spcl, said " Elmer why do you carry that thing you couldn't hit anything with it from more that accross a room?" Elmer told the guy he'd bet the guy $200 that he could hit the man's hat at 200 yds if he was given three shots to get the range down! The guy said I'll take you up on that so they pulled over on the side of the road, and the man stepped off the 200 yds and place his new Stetson on the side of the hill! Elmer took a rest over the hood of the car, and fired three shots. The hat owner told Elmer to dig out his money while he went to get his hat. Elmer told the guy to dig his out while he was walking up the hill, because he had hit the man's hat. Of the three shots Elmer fire two hit that hat! This was documented and printed in several gun magazines back in the 1960s! Gentlemen I disagreed with Elmer on a lot of things, but I certainly would never have bet him he couldn't make a shot he claimed to be able to make. One thing I disagreed with Elmer on was his preference for a single trigger on a dangerous game double rifle. This is because I don't want any single thing thing that must be depended on to opperate both sides of a double rifle. The whole idea of a double rifle is haveing TWO totally indipendant single shot rifles on one stock. Any thing the has to be used to fire both barrels if something goes wrong with that item turns the double rifle to 12 pound club, instead of at least a working single shot! Some of Elmer's preference for very heavy bullets in everything was the result of lots of very poorly disigned dangerous game bullets in his day, and he was right regardless of what O'Connor had to say about it. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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| one of us |
I have explained it in detail above if you care to read it but I'll explain it one more time slowly. The hard, sharp steel jacket of the flat nosed DGX bullets can hang up on the chamber of any rifle - PF or CRF and when it does you have a malfunction. The difference between the CRF and the PF means that the guy with the CRF rifle can eject the offending round and chamber another with the rifle still at their shoulder ( assuming they haven't bent the round ) while the guy with the PF has to take the rifle from their shoulder to dig or shake the round loose. Also I was just looking at a number of large bore auto pistols this morning and on the majority of them the rim of the cartridge rides up under the extractor before it is chambered, just the same as all CRF rifles do and different than PF rifles where the bolt must be closed in order for the extractor to grasp the rim. I guess that makes your 1911's and Glocks CRF. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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| one of us |
TRAX stop a minute and think about what you just posted that I placed in Bold print, and in red in you quote! With a CRF action the round is controled by the bolt, and if he short shifted in the way you discribe all that would have happened is he would be simply chambering the rouund when he close the bolt. This is because the bolt has the round before it comes free of the magazine and a properly timed CRF will not pick up a second round till the one on the bolt, and inline with the bore of the rifle all the way through the bolt movenemt and is either ejected or chambered, fired or not! This can't be said of the PF action. No matter how you argue facts are facts, and can be demonstrated quite easily. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes with the CRf one would just need to rechamber the unfired round. What I was refering to but should have been more clear and specific about, was the scenario where one shortshifts CRf to the rear with a fired case, and again cycles the bolt forward to simply chamber an empty case. Sure you can cycle again to put a live round up the spout, but some may not manage to do that, just like one may not manage to simply slide the auto safety off on their double on a 12yd charging Buff, despite being highly experienced with a rifle they supposedly know well. By the way, Sako rifles have not always been PF,they began with FN mauser actions like Weatherby did. [QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: ..Winchester had followed with changing the Mod 70 to a pushfeed, and Sako had always been a pushfeed...[QUOTE] | |||
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Macifej, Are you impling that you doubt the veracity of someone that was a cowboy,hunting guide and gunwriter?? I'm shocked: Shocked I say!   Besides, look at his hat and seegars----- SSR | |||
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| One of Us |
some may not manageto do that That doesnt make it a design flaw. At some pointeven rocks arent idiot proof SSR | |||
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| One of Us |
AR is the best source of entertainment I've had since I signed up almost four years ago. Wouldn't miss it for the world!! | |||
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| One of Us |
I have read and understand , I was refering to you post that stated the following
Is the Hornady "substandard ammo? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Moderator |
If the rifle won't feed dgx ammo, it needs feeding work, period. Bring under the extractor before the bolt closes is not CRT phil. It's not in control. Some times it's better to quit when behind, phil. It's obvious nothing will persuade or be significant enough for you to reason. You are now making stuff up to rationalize. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| one of us |
I know that but that has been a very long time ago! Both Weatherby and Sako were much better rifles before they decided their bottom line was more important than making their CRF rifles! However as far as PFs go, Sako is still one of the best only slightly less reliable that the Sauer. I own some PF rifles, so they are not worthless, but I simply do not think they are the best choice for use on dangerous game, when CRFs are no more expensive. I have several CRF rifles and not all of them are dangerous game rifles, but all the dangerous bolt rifles I own are CRF, and the rest are double rifles! As I've said on several occasions on this thread and others on the same subject, "Use what you want, I do, and what I use for DGRs are CRF bolt rifles and S/S double rifles! I've said my piece, and my opinion is worth no more than what you paid for it! ...................  BYE!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: I own some PF rifles, so they are not worthless, but I simply do not think they are the best choice for use on dangerous game, when CRFs are no more expensive. I have several CRF rifles and not all of them are dangerous game rifles, but all the dangerous bolt rifles I own are CRF, [QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: but even a mil-surp action barreled, and chambered for hunting dangerous game, it should have already been made to feed properly, and modified for the extractor to allow single cartridge loading without have to be placed in the magazine. All my big bore bolt rifles are so configured. [QUOTE] The virtue some here have stressed of CRF, is its lack of ability to feed/jam two rounds into the same chamber, then its suggested the CRF claw should be modified to also allow single loading without having to be placed in the magazine, .... in other words, to function like an PF. Why modify ones inherently more foolproof design CRF DGR, to now allow possible risk of short stroke/double loading? Paul Mauser who progressed from PF to CRF, didnt see the need for that in the M98. if he valued it enough, surely he would have included such a feature. | |||
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| <generalwar> |
Elmer also recommended you bring a knife on your belt. Im on my way to find one now.  | ||
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| One of Us |
I may not have the rich international experience that many of you other folks have on here. I have only hunted in Alaska and have done so for 30 years. I can tell you that I have shot a lot of critters. I believe that I have a lot yet to learn. Thus, I have many trails yet to travel. I also am not a professional guide or individual who makes it a point to hunt for a living. I can tell you this. I have done extensive research on the guides in Alaska and I can tell you that they would recommend a CRF rifle to to the fact that they are less likely to get gunked up in terrrible conditions and are more reliable in the close stuff. I can tell you that guides who worked in less difficult areas like Urban Rahoi on the North Side of the Wrangells or Howard Knutson on the North Side of the Brooks felt that CRF was not as necessary. However, Howard Knutson and the multitude of other guides that I have talked with echo Phil's sentiment. A CRF rifle is more likely to function when there is glacial silt, mud, alder brush, or grit in the most terrible conditions. Elmer Keith spent a considerable amount of time during WW2 checking the function of the 45 ACP 1911s from his armory. He would walk in the bullets accurately out to 300 yards. He had unlimited time and probably unlimited ordinance. He also spent much time like many farmers and ranchers shooting varmits at all kinds of ranges. Shooting a mule deer with a gun that was specifically set up with a gold wire for ranging and great experience in the field can illustrate how somebody could do what he did. I know a couple of guides who use push feeds. However most gravitate to CRF as soon as they can. You have to understand that if you the dude hunter pee your pants when the bear comes and then breaks into the alders that the guide then has to go in after it. What would you want if you were going into a scrap with a wounded very vengeful predator that weighs more than half a ton? A sniper in the field does not have to engage in most circumstances at ranges under 25 yards. A Bear guide unfortunately does. This is my take but I have rifles for bear hunting and rifles for mountain hunting. All of my bear rifles are CRF. Sincerely, Thomas Thomas Kennedy | |||
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| One of Us |
The people I have talked with that have met E.Keith said he was an ol`political fart..nevertheless I have always enjoyed his readings( i have most of his books). In one of his books he recommends no less than .338cal for africa, which I do not understand, because I know a .270cal will drop game down there, like they were bashed with a reckingball. Elmer was strong of opinion in everything, regarding knifes, saddles etc, but he wasn`t always right. As for myself, I use CFR for hunting, but I wouldn`t be hessitat to use a PF rifle smallbore/bigbore. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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| one of us |
MacD37, agree that two in a hat @ 200 yards is doable with a 44 mag. My 6.5" 29-2 can put five into 4" @ 100 yds. Believe old Elmer could do that. But, holdover @ 600 yds with a 240 gr. SWC is 48 feet! Try getting a sight picture on a tiny dot of a deer at that range with your M29, add the 48 feet, now put the deer on a run and hit him two of four shots. | |||
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| One of Us |
Hmmm, an interesting "ad hominem" slur upon a highly respected American icon of the 20thC, shooting and hunting world. I also have known several men, very experienced BC working wilderness hunters, guides, internationally renowned gun collectors, fine gunsmiths and world champion rifle shots, ( Bisley), who knew Elmer very well from the 1920s, when he guided here in BC until his final days. These men, some of whom were among my mentors when I first began shooting and bushwhacking in the BC wilderness, following in the tracks of my pioneer forbearers here, all, without exception, had the utmost respect for Elmer and his abilities, skills and knowledge. There would appear to be a contradiction here and, given the source, the conclusion is obvious. I started using the .270W. and the .338WM in 1968, have owned many of each, loaded and shot gawd knows how many thousands of rounds of each and still own and use nine crf rifles in these two cartridges. Anyone, who states that the .270 is equal in terminal effect to the .338 on heavy game is probably beyond teaching and should consider taking up croquet as a hobby and leave the hunting/rifle arts to we who respect Elmer and know whereof we speak, through realtime, personal wilderness experience and not merely riding with a PH in a Safari "brake". | |||
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| one of us |
I hear you, and I can shoot a handgun about as well as anyone I know, and I wouldn't even try it on a live target, but that is not limited to a handgun. I will not shoot at a live target at 600 yds with any rifle without more cause than to "WOUND" a deer. I'm not saying he did it or not, and I'm not certain that claim was even made by Elmer, or just someone here trying to justify their dislike for him. However, I met Elmer of a couple occasions, and he struck me as a pretty honest and capable person. If he had told ME he did it, I certainly would not have called him a liar, even if I didn't believe it! I also met O'Connor at a Safari show, and he struck me as a real snobb, But I liked his wife,and talked to her for some time at that show! I do know one thing, and that is Elmer's main objector was O'Connor, and I had to agree with Elmer's opinion that O'Connor was full of crap with some of his claims for the 270Win. Don't get me wrong I see nothing wrong with the 270win for deer and sheep hunting but just like any chambering it has it's limits, but O'Connor didn't acknowledge any of them, and IMO he knew better, but just had to needle Elmer. For African plains game, bigger than impala, I would far rather have something a little more substantial than a 270 win, and the 338 Win might just be a very good choice for that persuit. Still as I've said here folks should use what ever they want, as long as it is legal for what they are hunting, in the place where they are hunting! As I also said, here, I didn't agree with everything Elmer had to say, and even less that O'Connor said. The donnybrooks about CRF vs. PF will never be solved to everyone’s satisfaction, and maybe in a free country it shouldn't be totally agreed on. Otherwise what would young deer hunters, who never owned anything but one or the other, and will never face anything more dangerous than a whitetail deer, at close range, have to argue about to empress their peers and others with their GUN KNOWLEDGE around the internet! .................................  ..............................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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| One of Us |
I cant get to my books to check right now, but IIRC Elmer was shooting at a deer that had already been wounded and was escaping. If thats the case whats the harm in throwing what ever lead you have at it? SSR | |||
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| One of Us |
MacD37, Why have you modified all your BigBore DG CRF rifles to allow loose single feeding like an PF, thus allowing the possible risk of the dreaded double feeding scenario? I thought you prefer & choose CRF to totally avoid such possibilty. | |||
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| one of us |
TRAX you are one stubborn fellow! You read but fail to understand ENGLISH it seems! I'm beginning to think you just like to argue. Actually I don't think you even know how a CRF or PF actions work, and simply are not interested enough to learn either! The only value of being able to load a single round without having to push the round into the magazine is when you run dry, and need just one more round, and don't have time to load it in the magazine. That way it works both ways. The PF doesn't it is a PF and will never be anything else. All quality commercial Mauser, and Mauser clone actions are made that way, because they are hunting rifles. This was not needed with the war rifles because they used stripper clips to re-load the magazine, and the ammo was already in the clips in the pockets of the soldier's ammo belt! This also applies to the 1903 Springfield , and most other Mauser copies for war use. If one is building a rifle on a military Mauser 98 action, then the front of the extractor must be tapered to allow the extractor to slip over the round tossed in the loading tray. This doesn't change the CRF action to a push feed action. when worked from the magazine it is still fully CRF. Is that clearer to you or are you still confused? ....................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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| One of Us |
MacD's just messin' with ya Trax, he only shoots Doubles and prefers a Blaser S2. He sold me all of his bolt guns last year, says he doesn't need em anymore since he has a single trigger 45-70 Double with auto-safety. Ask him to post a photo of the Armadillo engraving work. I told him it looks like a Stegosaurus but insists armadillos in his area of Texas have spikes on the end of their tails. Either way, the gold fill on nickle plated receiver is Gucci. | |||
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| One of Us |
[QUOTE] The only value of being able to load a single round without having to push the round into the magazine is when you run dry, and need just one more round, and don't have time to load it in the magazine so Push feed is more advantgeous than CRF in that time critical DG hunting situation? also do you view DG hunting as such an exact predictable science where one can accurately pre-determine that they only need to load one more round to deal with an dangerous & uncertain situation? [QUOTE]All quality commercial Mauser, and Mauser clone actions are made that way, because they are hunting rifles. Really,be kind enough to name a few specific quality brands,... are HartmannWeiss,Prechtl,GMA, on that list? There are a few other high quality German made new manufacture M98 actions, can you name which ones modify the extracator to allow PF function? Do H&H,Purdey, WR,Reimer Yohannsen and Waffenjung modify their BigBore mauser rifles extractors to allow non CRF single feed? [QUOTE] This was not needed with the war rifles because they used stripper clips to re-load the magazine, and the ammo was already in the clips in the pockets of the soldier's ammo belt! You mean to say situations in war were so ideal that a German soldier always had full clips and never had the need to single load some loose rounds? You mean Paul Mauser never envisaged a Soldier running dry in a tight situation and not having a full clip at his immediate disposal, with the dire need of rapid loading a loose round to save his bacon? | |||
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| One of Us |
ve seen specious arguing in my life but this ranks right up there A-single loading can be faster than reloading the magazine, and yes sometimes you only need one more. And sometimes one more is better than none more. B-yes most if not all of those plus Winchester, Dakota,Kimber, Montana Rifle Company,and others C-I dont know about the M-98 in particular but the majority of Military designs were to meet Military specifications, not the designers whim. Several designs,included magazine cut-offs. Soldiers were trained to single-load most of the time, reserving the magazine for times requiring extreme rapid fire. Mac- you are right , trax is arguing just to argue. SSR | |||
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| One of Us |
Im not arguing,I have asked questions, and MacD has answered to some degree. So far we have established that there are particular moments/situations when PF is prefered/advantageous over CRF, when facing dangerous game. ...As in the example below, where its imperative to have that single loose round chambered and ready to fire ASAP, PF is purposely selected over the more time consuming CRF method. [QUOTE]Originally posted by MacD37: The only value of being able to load a single round without having to push the round into the magazine is when you run dry, and need just one more round, and don't have time to load it in the magazine. [QUOTE] | |||
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| One of Us |
untrue and false SSR | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
In the 1960s in Australia a lot of us used M17s rebarreled to 270. We had Hirtenber ammo (and thus brass) and Norma and Winchester. Extractor groove diameter differences, fucked the M17. You go from one extreme to the other, that is, one lot of ammo won't slide under the extractor and with the other the case drops out of the extractor unless you pulled the bolt back real fast. No problem with the Sako 270 Finnbear rifles. Under all conditions where a lot shooting will be done I would bet on the PF and doubly so if an in line feed. I am just pointing out that CRF supporters should qualify.. if ammo/brass is OK and the rifle is been properly checked and tested etc.. in Australia we probably get the "export" mode;s When Winchester reintroduced the CRF Classis heaps of the 300 Winchesters would leave the fired case on the follower. That will give you some double feed Winchester Australia got a lot of extractors in but did not always work because of rin/groove dimensions of brass.As a side note if you want to try in line PF V stagger feed CRF try a Wby Mark V in 416 with 400 grain Hornadys loaded backwards Vs a CZ in 416 Rigby. But if I was getting a top end 375 H&H made I would get CRF, just looks right, looks good as you feed rounds. An in line PF looks terrible but as you would already know that system will feed stuff that a stagger feed CRF would choke on. Best regards. | ||
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| one of us |
Thanks Mike, Your experience makes perfect sense when you think about it. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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