over kill i think your formula is only good for the smaller caliber but the 2 bore still has at least 3-4 times the recoil of the 460

I just ran the new stats and came back with 462 ft-lbs of recoil.



Yes OK, that makes any current shoulder fired gun seem like a pop gun...
s
Bullet weight is king.

blck-powder-big-bore...!

Please tell me how you feel the recoil of your 2-bore...?

Interesting sight 500, that really makes the .700 Nitro a worse choice for elephant than the .585 doesn't it. The .585 looks to have a better combo of penetration combined with plenty of frontal area.

Then there is the 2-bore

I didn't like that guys site. He puts too much emphasis on sectional density. Frankly, bullet weight is king, not velocity, and not sectional density. With light caliber guns, like the 375 and 416, that maybe true. And, it may apply to the midrange Nitros, etc. where the diameter is to large for the bullet lengths used.

But when you think about it, the WORST of all the bullets at S/D is the one that penetrates the most, the 2 bore. Why? It's so frigging heavy, it doesn't care if it's soft lead, and deforms, or, it has no sectional density. At a certain point, the resistance required to slow an object is increased geometricly, just as the foot-pounds of energy increase as the projectile weight increases.

Somewhere between 1750 grains, and 3550 grains, at 1350 fps, all that sectional density stuff becomes irrelevant, when the gun is used on real world animals. The mass of the bullet over comes any garbage about sectional density, and just goes through what ever it hits.

On a lesser scale. Ever shot a 357 or 9 mm into a 12 inch tree, in the forest? It zips right up to the tree, shatters, and doesn't go through.

A slow moving, so slow you can see the sunlight glint off the bullet, 230 grain, jacketed hard ball, 45 slug, will zip right through that same 12 inch tree, and keep on trucking.

Linebaugh found something similar at his seminars.

Just because the slug is going faster, doesn't mean it's chances of penetration are greater, and that's what I don't like about the guys data.

Also, we have to make up our minds. If you want to kill elephant, and or buffalo, you really don't need anything bigger then a 375 H&H. If you have a shot, it will do the job. It penetrates incredibly well, with heavy bullets, and, sectional density does apply.

A 700 nitro wasn't intended for killing elephants, it was for stopping anything nasty, coming at you, and, I suspect, was rather good at that.

To come close to 'stopping' any of the above, or the big cats, I would feel much better with a 700 nitro, then a 375, and a bunch of dead guys would probably back me up on that.

However, as is pointed out, the shock might turn em, but the bullet may not drop em.

However, you could, and I wonder if the old guys did, load up longer bullets in your nitro express, that pushed into a different weight category, and offered far increased penetration, at lower velocity, ala the 2 bore...

s

Socrates,

Paper can not reveal the full story I agree with you, and I reckon if one were to witness the shooting of elephants with bot the .700 nitro & say the .585 Nyati the .700 would have to perfrom better in the real wouldn't it ??

Has anyone on this forum witnnessed/shot elephant with a .700 nitro??

I draw analogy bewteen the 45/70 & 30/06 and on paper the look to be equal out to say 100 yards (I realise the 30/06 is a better long range proposition), but from the game I have shot the slower heavier 45/70 bullets kill quicker and create larger wounds than the quicker travelling .30 cal bullets. I think paper ballistics can be over quoted at times.

Yeah but a .700 BMG IMPROVED loaded with a 1200 grain Hawk SP bullet at 2600 f/s will make a bigger wound channel than a 2-bore. And Socrates...! I dont think that a 2-bore will penetrate good. Or ??

I talked to a guy who witnessed an elephant head shot with a .700. He said it looked like the elephant's front feet were lifted off the ground with the shot. But that may be just fanciful recollection. In any case, he said that due to penetration issues, they avoided frontal brain shots with the .700.

I agree with Socrates that paper ballistics are not the end of the story. For example, on the .375 end of the spectrum, a piece of heavy bone is more likely to deflect the bullet than it is on the heavier end of the spectrum.

But the paper ballistics do give up some sort of yardstick for comparison, even if they are not a perfect guide.

I do think that sectional density has relevance, because it tends to tell us that a 500 grain bullet in a .458 (S.D. approx .330) traveling at a given velocity will penetrate more deeply than a 500 grain bullet in a .510 (S.D. approx. .260).

Of course, assuming sectional densities are the same and velocities are the same, we will expect the heavier slug to penetrate more deeply.

500

Obviously I have a vested interest in regards to were the .585 Nyati fits into the scheme of things. So in real world terms how does it compare to other class five cartridges with respect to on game performance. For example it should exhibit greater on game performance than say the .505 Gibbs. The comparison between the .505 V .585 Nyatti would be similar to say a comparison in the difference between .416 Rigby V .458 Lott. Is it that kind of step up in on game performance ??

PC:
IIRC Seyfried came up with that round to give him something that didn't cost more then an airplane, but that he could use to stop charging buffalo, etc. He came very close to getting killed by one, when he killed it with his 6 gun, in 45 caliber. Bull dropped pretty much at his nose.

He felt the need for something considerably bigger then any avaliable cartridge, after his hunting experiences. I think he worked as a professional hunter for a while.

I think, without a brake, it's approaching max for a shoulder fired rifle, for 99% of the people out there, and, I don't think he intended it for anything but a stopping rifle, to turn large, angry, wounded animals.

If you look at Saeeds' ballistics tables, you get about the same energy as a Nitro express, but with a lighter bullet.

From the cheap seats, I can't help but think a 1000 grain bullet, at 2400 fps is going through anything it hits.

I could be wrong.

I think the 585 offers better sectional density, less problems when your life is on the line with hang fires, and still, one very large bullet.

Keep in mind that Roy Vincent built one of these, as did Mr. Seyfried. I think the company tells pretty much what they think of the round...

You choose wisely
s

I suppose Socrates, to sum the .585 Nyati up, it is boarding or crossing over (I'm not sure yet because I have not fired mine)the threshold of practical rifles into the realms of toys if you know what I mean. But I suppose if Roy Vincent and Ross Seyfried actually use it to hunt with it must have some practical purpose. It would seem that the major problems experienced by the .585 Nyatti is due to Bertram Brass. In building my .585 I stuck exactly to the original Seyfried design (no wild cats, 3" shell etc.). For one it worked out cheaper, dies are standard item with CH4 and there was less alterations to be made to feed the 2.82" case length, I also built it on the 602 action just as Seyfried first did. In some respects I felt that I could not alter from the original design as it's sort of defaming the creator.

It will be interesting to see if the new .600 OK has similar problems to the .700 Nitro you have mentioned in the way of hangfires etc.

500, I would have to think that the elephant being lifted of it's feet is a little fanciful, I would put that down to a reaction in the central nervous systym or somethink similar. I just can not fathom why a 1000 gr bullet travelling at 2400 fps would not penetrate excellently. I still really do not understand the concept of Sectional Density yet. If someone could please explain the theory to me I would be appreciative.

PC:
I don't think it's a toy.

I think it's sort of a security blanket for professional hunters.

I firmly believe there is a point where certain animals are going to kill you, when hit with even large caliber rifles.

I think O'Connor wrote about the buffalo that would not die, taking something like 20 rounds, ten from a 375 and an equal number from a 470 Nitro express.

Ray has said over and over again that there is a noticeable difference when hit with a 500, or larger caliber rifle.

I can show you that using a ballistics wound channel calculation.

Also, animals feel pain in a different way then us wimpy humans.

I have no doubt that sticking a needle hole, through a cape buffalo pisses them off no end, and they will kill you for it.

Barring hitting a vital organ, or nervous system, I don't think any rifle one can shoulder will
do enough damage, without proper bullet placement, to turn, or shock, a cape buffalo, much less an elephant. Though the 2 bore maybe the only reliable, one shot stopper.

I came to this conclusion after reading about a
guy building, and shooting a cape buffalo with, a 4 bore, and it's 1750 grain slugs. One would think that would plant the buffalo, but, it still went 60 yards, going down trail, and waiting in ambush.

After reading that, I pretty much gave up on the idea of a stopper. Can't afford em. However, your choice is what I think Seyfried and company consider the solution to a problem they have long felt, inadequate.

I think as you go up the scale, your percentage of stopping increases, but is never set in stone.

Shot placement is still key, but, perhaps the shock of a 585, and it's larger frontal area gives more of a slap, and more of a headache to that charging buffalo, maybe turning him off.

Also the bigger bullets have a far better chance of breaking bone, rather then being turned, so shoulder shots are likely to be more effective.

Frankly, if a cape buffalo, or his mates, or an elephant, and company, really want to get you, they will.

Buffalo just lead you into some thorns, you may shoot one, but his buddy can stomp and gore you to death, and you don't have a chance of hitting him, or, your out of rounds.

Same with elephant. They are smart, and they can communicate. We are lucky they aren't like us, hunting us for sport...

I think the real function of such rifles is to provide a large enough frontal area to slap a charging, large cat, and possibly turn an elephant, or buffalo. You aren't going to get more then one shot, so you better make it good...

I just can't help but think how big an African elephant is, having just got done riding one recently,and she was a 'little' girl, about 9500 pounds, and how small any rifle bullet is in comparision.

Just my two cents...

Overkill: I will say again, when it comes to penetration, bullet weight is king.

Regardless of sectional density. There is a point, somewhere between a 2 and 4 bore,where the bullet weight over comes the sectional density, and just goes through everything, animal flesh wise. I don't know what the magic number is, but Black Powder has indicated that his 2 bore bullets, that have the WORST POSSIBLE SECTIONAL DENSITY, BEING ROUND BALLS, go through everything and just keep on going, like the energizer bunny.

I believe him.

Tests at the Linebaugh seminar pretty much indicate that sectional density is secondary to
bullet design, and most important, bullet weight.

Your comment about a 1200 grain bullet out penetrating a 2 bore is questionable. As I have said, at a certain point, somewhere between 1750 and 3550 grains, penetration is no longer an issue, when hitting any sort of living flesh.
The bullet weighs so much, it just breaks, and keeps going through bone and flesh, no matter what.

Velocity is not the magic wand of penetration.

In fact, at the speeds you are talking about you should be using something like a GS solid, so it doesn't break up, and goes through what it hits, and this gives you a lesser wound channel.

To put my philosophy on the issue down, here we go.

High velocity, over 2400 fps, has many negatives.

First is bullet composition and material.

Most bullets fragment at such velocities, at the point blank ranges that you are going to be at, in Africa. That leaves you with solids, tungsten, GS solids, whatever, that go straight through, without expanding. So your wound channel is limited to the size of the bullet.

A larger, slower moving bullet has a better chance of breaking bones, and, with the heat of africa, a much better chance of not blowing up your rifle, or creating recoil so great you have no chance of a second shot. The lower pressures of the 375 H&H and Nitro express designs had a purpose. Be able to make your second shot.

Second, bullet design. Round nose bullets do penetrate, but, they don't leave the wound channel of a flat metplate bullet.

Most bullets designed for such game are not flat nosed, but round.

Keith style, flat nosed bullets, like some of the GS solids, offer a better wound channel, and,
the flat metplat bullets penetrate in a staight, efficent line, usually regardless of hitting bone, etc.
Problem is making sure your rifle feeds these bullets, a 100% of the time.

Note with such designs sectional density doesn't seem to be a factor. They all go straight, it's just the heavier bullet goes straight, the longest.

s

Socrates

Your two posts have really made me want to work & save over the next ten years and to travel to Africa and try my .585 out on what it was designed for, I am not an elephant sought of guy but I would love to whop a cape buff, that is my favourite game animal.

I wonder what sought of groups I will be able to obtain from my .585, if I can shoot a 1.7" group from my .416 Rigby with 410 grainers at 2550-2600 fps, I reckon I should be able to shoot a 3" to 3.5" group at 100 yards. I am being fairly untechnical just presume that recoil will be twice as bad as the rigby give or take so the groups will double in size accordingly.

Socrates...!

You have right, a 3500 grain slug will go through any animal and leave a big wound channel. And high velocity - light weight bullets is not good for stopping a angry buff.

But I think that a 1200 grain custom Hawk SP bullet in caliber .700 at 2400-2500 fps will make a bigger wound chanel than a 2-bore if it stay togheter. If it expand to the doulbe orginal diameter than it is .1400

I think that a 2-bore will KNOCK DOWN any animal in the 600-800 pound class. And stop a big buff at once. I would love to do a "stopping power" test with a 2-bore.

And that buff who was shoot with the 4-bore is not strange. Even a caliber .500 will expand to a bigger diameter than the 4-bore and kill faster.

black-powder-big-bore...!

How do you make the round balls and slugs to your 2-bore???

black-powder-big-bore...!

Were do you get cases to your 2-bore???

The 2-bore (3500 grain at 1350 fps) have a energy of 14 167 foot pounds.

A .700 BMG IMPROVED (1000 grain at 3000 fps) have a energy of 20 000 joule.

I still think that the 2-bore will have better stopping power than the .700

Overkill,

I think paper does not tell the story here. A 2-bore would be the best stopper bar none I beleive. Joules, footpounds, velocity all means nothing when your talking about a 2-bore. Nothing in flesh & bone is stopping a 2-bore.

Socrates...!

I had a look on the picture and the 4-bore slugs have not expand much. It has just leave a little bit of the weight. And a 4-bore have a diameter of around .989 and if a caliber .500 expand to the double orginal diameter then the diameter is .1000 and it will leave the same wound channel as the 4-bore. But the 4-bore have the diameter all the way in the animal. From start to it stopp. And the caliber .500 will do the same or bigger wound channel when it expand. But if it dont expand at once when it hit the buff then the 4-bore will do a bigger damage to the buffalo.

And caliber .700 BMG IMPROVED is not far from the 4-bore diameter. .700 and .989 And the .700 BMG IMPROVED will have much more velocity and energy than the 4-bore.

Then the 2-bore Yes I am as sure as you that a 2-bore will have the best "stopping power" and it will leave the biggest wound if it expand a little. And It will penetrate any animal on the planet.

But how can a human fire a rifle with a recoil of 460 ft-ibs of recoil... And you are not going to have a fast second shoot.

A 2-bore would be a fun very short range "STOPPING RIFLE"

Black-powder-big-bore...!

Have you tried to use a slug in your 2-bore? similar to the picture that Socrates post???

ok sorry for being awayfor so long i have been working mass overtime to aford some hunting trips this fall

ok now to answer some questions

1-i cast my owen round balls
2-no i do not use slugs out of this gun 3500grs of lead is enough.
3-i has taken cape buff with my 2 bore and none went more than say 5 yards most droped on the spot.
4 recoil is absolutly friggin brutal but i have learnd to cope with it.

i am planning on a elephant trip next october of the may of 2004.(havent desided where i wanna go yet) am leaning twoards nambibia

in another month my uncle is going to lend me his digital camera and i and going to post mass amounts of picturs on this site i cant wait

black-powder-big-bore...!

How much more weight can be possible to shoot with a slug in your 2-bore...??? And have you find the round ball from the buffalo? Does it expand??

black-powder-big-bore...!

It will be fun if you can do a "stopping power" test with your 2-bore. Put up a 200 l barrel with sand or something and shoot it at short range, and see if the 2-bore knock it down...!

i am not shure how heavy of a conical can be shot in a 2 bore but i have seen a 5000 gr conical for a 2 bore befor never fired it though

i have just for fun filled a plastic drum with sand i waighted it and it was 250lbs almost right on we set it on a chair about the same size as the bottom of the barrel i then shot it at 25 yards it knocked it right off the chair i just did this for something to do me and a feww of my buddies were bored and desided to go make some smoke.

Overkill:

You don't get the basic advantage of the 2 and 4 bore. The bullets are already expanded when they land. You don't have to worry about some trick bullet separating etc. and, you don't have to pay 8 bucks a bullet for tungstun core solids, the only bullet you should be using in a stopper for huge dangerous game, anyway.

The caliber advantage of these guns makes more of a shock, as they hit on impact, sending some sort of wave through the tissue. Water is non-compressible, so when that 1 inch wide bullet hits, it creates a shock wave, followed by a large hole.

A stopper is supposed to be 100% reliable, and, for that to occur, you can't worry about bullet expansion.

I'm sure BB has adrenilin running when he actually shoots a buffalo, and that enables him to tolerate the recoil. I'm also sure that same buffalo has about 20 times as much of the stuff going, and that's why you need that big, giant bullet.

Also, what about cats? They don't provide much resistence to soft point bullets, compared to buffalo, or elephant, and, they could easily take a .50 caliber if it goes straight through, and doesn't hit anything vital, and still kill you.

One lion took a 375 H&H in the heart, and still clawed, and I believe, killed the shooter.

s

black-powder-big-bore...!

That is real "stopping power" Was it knocked down fast? Do you think that the 2-bore can knock over a more heavy barrel???

black-powder-big-bore

do you have any photos of your 2-bore? I assume it is a single barrel?

And your 4-bore - any photos?

Thanks

Very difficult to get good pictures of 2 and 4 bores. All the smoke from the black powder obscures the subjects..

Socrates a 2-bore is something I will have to get one day

Do they make a 2-bore that is breach loaded with metallic cartridges ??

Socrates...! And guys...!

What caliber will knock over the most heavy barrel. The .2-bore with 14370 ft-Ibs or the .700 BMG IMPROVED with 20000 ft-Ibs...???

i have pictures of the 4 bore and i will take some pictures of the 2 bore when i get around to it how do i post pictures on here?

i do know a fellow that makes 2 bore breach loading guns but they sell for a minimum of 15,000 us each and thats for a plain 1 i can get you a 2 bore muzzel loader for about 3000$ us.

Socrates...!

You say that the 2-bore will penetrate any game. Then it is not as good as the .700 BMG IMPROVED on "stopping power" because the .700 will leave all energy fast. If you use a 1200 grain SP bullet that stay togheter and it expand to over the double orginal diameter and stay in the animal and hit with 18000 ft-ibs,or more. Then it will stop the game better and make more damage...!

Overkill,

you need to understand that "paper theories" are sometimes bullshit and they do not explain reality. For instance take the 30/06 V 45/70 this is an anolgy for the .700 V 2-bore. The 30/06 may look better on paper (were talking 130 odd yards here) but the 45/70 slower heavier projectile IMHO kills more swiftly.

Forget about joules whatever just think about real life on game performance and that 2-bore has bucket loads of it by the sounds of things.

PC...!

Yeah but the .700 BMG IMPROVED will do a bigger hole than the 2-bore because the expanded diameter on the .700 will be bigger than a 2-bore.

But isnt that strange that a caliber like the 2-bore will have better "stopping power" because of the bullet weight than a .700 BMG IMPROVED wich have much more kinetic energy.

Blackpowder

"how do i post pictures on here?"

To post pictures

the easy way - email them to me and I will post them for you. See my profile.

OR

post them on the web somewhere.
eg
www.hunting-pictures.com open a free account

Load up the pic using the features on hunting pictures.

Open the picture in hunting pictures - right click on the web ref - copy

Create a reply on Accurate Reloading - click on the image button below. Right click when the ref comes up and paste.

Repeat for each picture

PC,

Sectional density basically means a bullet's mass divided by its diameter. Another way to think of it is the length of the bullet. Long bullets tend to penetrate more deeply than short ones. The 500 grain .458 with a SD of .33 has an excellent reputation as a penetrator, while the .458 400 with a SD of about .27 (from memory) has a lousy reputation as a penetrator, even though the velocity is greater.

Since field results of the .700 showed poor penetration, the new load uses a 1200 grain bullet for better penetation. Same diameter, more weight = greater sectional density = more penetration, to a certain limit.

As for the 585, I found it had less penetration than my 470 capstick on game. But neither buff nor elephant went more than 25 or so yards when lung shot with solids from it. The buff was even spooked before being shot. Experienced buff hunters say a buff that is lung shot with a 375 will go 200 yards, one that is lung shot with a 416 will go 100 yards, one that is lung shot with a 458 will go 50 yards, etc. Those are inaccurate generalizations, but I think the idea comes through.

To put it another way, I think I would stand up for several seconds longer after being punched by Jackie Chan than after being punched by Mike Tyson (in theory at least).

And, then we get the 2 bore, that has the WORST sectional density, no metplat to keep it stable on penetration(some people think that with a flat nosed bullet, high sectional density causes instability...) little velocity, due to bullet weight, goes through anything...

s

[ 08-22-2002, 01:49: Message edited by: Socrates ]

500,

Your "yards analogy" is probably pretty close to reality mate. It may in some cases be a generalisation but there is a lot more energy being distributed with each jump in caliber and those results are just what "I would expect in the field"

The mere sight of the hole in your .585's barrel would be enough to make a buff have a heart attack

Socrates Paper just does not quite hold all the answers.