What is the bullet diameter on a 2-bore in mm and what weight does the bullet have. And what velocity...?

Whatis the bullet diameter on a 4-bore in mm and what is the bullet weight. And what velocity...?

Some one who know...???

Thanks...!

Is there any 2-bore that are in use today...???

You may be interested in this.
http://www.gunshop.com/vintage6.htm

Kboom- I have seen those videos...!

But I want to know the the bullet weight/velocity/diameter of the .2-bore and .4-bore...

Quoting from the article on African Hunter Magazine's website:

"The so-called 4-Bore�s bullet diameters varied widely in the cartridge versions usually around .935 to .955 with the true one inch size normally found only in the old muzzle loading rifles. The 4-Bore size being an old reference measurement of 4-Balls to the pound of lead, which computes out to 1750 grains of weight."

See: http://www.african-hunter.com/site/firearms/4bore_part01_01.htm

Overkill, 4 bore is listed by the CIP.
I can send a fax with all the data.
Bullet diam. is 25,40mm. but I have no information about the 2 bore.

Bongo

Socrates,
there is something to be said for what you have posted, I agree with you. Most hunters are probably much better off with a .416 or .375 as they could probably place the shot much better than any of the big bangers

It would be interesting to study calibre/group size charts wouldn't it. For instance the best group I have shot with my .416 to date is 1.7" at 100 yards (I know the rifle will shoot better, I just have not mastered it yet). I can shoot a group with my 22/250 1/2 MOA and sometimes less with know wind and not to much coffee

PC: I agree. While it's not a great example, or maybe it is, K Bell used a 5X57 IIRC, to kill an awful lot of elephants. Course he didn't believe in stoppers because at that time, so many animals in a herd meant you died, if they charged.

I really get this feeling when I switch from my 22, that shoots one hole at 25 yards, and damn close to that, off the bench at 50, to the 375.

Alot of people suggest recoil becomes less significant as the hunt goes on, but, if you notice, Saeed uses a slightly improved 375, and does just fine with it.

Whatever, I may, if school starts in time, and my foot heals, go in on a boomer, like an 600 Overkill, or a 458 AI, but use a brake, screw on perfered, and all the other tricks to slow recoil down. So far, I've used the shoulder pad, a kickeaze pad on the rifle, it's heavy, but, it still kicks too much to bench it comfortably for siting in with the scope..

Rob has done a very convincing job of taming a 50, and, I have no doubt, with enough technology, you can get the rifles down to a point you can handle the recoil, but, it better be a top priority.

s

Most of the recent writing about African hunting makes the same recommendation. Almost anyone can learn to handle a .375 and it has accounted for one whale of a lot of game. I sometimes wonder why I don't just sell of the whole safe full and get a pair of custom .375's made and hunt the world. I wouldn't be the first to do so.

On the other hand, it must be remembered that big game is characterized by being big! MOA groups become somewhat meaningless when the heart of a buffalo is the size of a basketball and an elephant's is the size of a man's torso. Game killing accuracy isn't necessarily pinpoint under these circumstances. Still, it definitely doesn't pay to be more afraid of your rifle than you are of the lion that's visualizing you under glass . . . with mustard! Balance in all things, I believe the original Socrates maintained.

Buff are tough! I've killed six to date and will go after two more in Zim next week. If you want to make an impression, then .50 caliber is the minimum. I really believe in the 2400 fps magic number. A .375 will work when the bullet is placed exactly right and the inherent accuracy helps in this regard, but it's no stopper if things go wrong. Just ask Johan Calitz what he would have liked in his hands last year. I want a .600 overkill in my hands. I love double rifles, but there is also magic in a well tuned bolt action. Until the .600 overkill, nothing has met my requirements in a bolt gun, that I knew would turn a charge if it happened. FWIW I'd love a 4 bore, but it can't hit 2400 fps. That's where I want to be 25 yrds from a 45 inch Buff on dawns cold light!-Rob

[ 08-08-2002, 09:23: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Rob Said:
"Buff are tough! I've killed six to date and will go after two more in Zim next week. If you want to make an impression, then .50 caliber is the minimum."
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On this we agree, though, I think the 458 AI might make a pretty good splash, with a wide, flat nose, or barnes x, at 2400 fps.
Still, if a buff can take a 1 inch slug, go 60 yards, the AI is better then a 375, but, again, I agree, to really stop em, 50 is a minimum.
Ray has stated this, again, and again...

"I really believe in the 2400 fps magic number. A .375 will work when the bullet is placed exactly right and the inherent accuracy helps in this regard, but it's no stopper if things go wrong. Just ask Johan Calitz what he would have liked in his hands last year. I want a .600 overkill in my hands. I love double rifles, but there is also magic in a well tuned bolt action. Until the .600 overkill, nothing has met my requirements in a bolt gun, that I knew would turn a charge if it happened."
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505 gibbs, 600 grains, at 2400 fps sounds like it might work, but, overall, I would rather have yours. All of the doubles are out of the question. WAY too expensive...
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FWIW I'd love a 4 bore, but it can't hit 2400 fps. That's where I want to be 25 yrds from a 45 inch Buff on dawns cold light!-Rob
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Long time ago, I had a phone conversation that persuaded me to get a 6 shot, 45 Linebaugh.

In that conversation, Mr. Seyfried gave me a wonderful discription of how his buff knew he was there, and was going for a preemptive strike. In other words, it was a 25 yard clearing, more like a long tunnel in thorns, Seyfried had crawled through, and the buff came at him. 5 shots later, the buffalo was dead at his feet, hit with 5, 345 grain slugs, at 1550.

Now, I'm kind of curious, how many of us could get off that many shots, in a little less then 2 seconds???

With my 45 acp, sure, but, the buff would be laughing the entire way, as he gored me. MY 45 Linebaugh? It takes 2 seconds to come out of recoil, after the first shot, with that load( he sent me some: 45 big slugs were hard to come by at the time, or John L did, can't remember).

No, the 600 Overkill has it's place. By the way, I think Mr. Seyfried had a 577 nitro express for a backup gun. Problem was, in the thorns, his bearer couldn't get a shot, and couldn't get him the gun...

So, I guess Rob, you and I agree. I can get a new 458 for about 700 bucks, CZ 550.

Your puppy needs a muzzle brake, a sturdy stock,
and some added weight. If all comes together, I might be able to cough up some bucks for a barrel.

However, currently, I can't walk, thanks to surgery on my heel.

Maybe awhile before I'm up to paying you for the barrel.

If you have the bucks laying around, order an extra, and chances are REAL good I'll be able to pick it up from you in the year or so.

Now how are we going to feed this puppy, and what's that going to cost?

Bullets, cases, etc?

s

i happen to owen both rifles as a few people on this board happen to know.

i have 1 4 bore it is a custom rifle from a fellow in fort collins co. it is a german jager configuration. the bore is .989 and it shoots a 1380grn round ball with 440grs of fg powder at 1500fps. i have taken many head of game with the rifle and any time you have a question feel free to ask.

i also have a two bore rifle bore diameter is 1.314 it shoots a 3500grn round ball with 500grs of fg powder at 1400-1500fps and 17,500lbs foot pounds. i have taken bison and moose and hope to take a cape buff and elephant with it on my next trip to africa.

if any 1 is interested in the 2 bore email me and i will give you the makers phone number and the 4 bore as well

Just tell us how much they cost, first...

Green with envy...
s

black-powder-big-bore...!

How was the effect on that moose and bison that you shoot with your 2-bore...??? what velocity was it on the 3500 grain slug.???

Have you done any penetration test with it? And how is the recoil when you load it to 1500 f/s. I am sure that the 2-bore is the best "stopping rifle".

the velosity of the 2 bore is 1350-1450fps i only cronyed it 1 time and that was 1 year ago i forgot the exact velosity spread.

the effect was instant the animals were droped instantly never taking more than a step.

for penetration i can go threw 25 wet phone bookes and 4 1 1/2" pine stoppers with a 3% tin mix and with 6% i can completly blow threw 2 more pine stoppers and into the dirt hill behind it.

Rob,
I agre that buff are tough and will admit that I've only shot one. However, less than five minutes later my partner shot another with exactly the same cartridge and load so I will claim experience with two. I disagree that .50 cal. is needed to make an impression. We were using .450 Rigbys (500 gr. Hornady @ 2280 fps. handloads) and in both cases the buffalo dropped! Not 'looked dazed, wondered around and dropped,' not 'ran less than 30 yards and dropped,' just dropped! Jim's did get back up again but it was so sick and wobbly that I doubt that the following shots were necessary. Still, it never hurts to make sure. In any case, while a .50 cal. is a serious agument, you can make a very decent impression with any Class III DGR.

black-powder-big-bore...!

Was the moose knocked down? like some one had push it down??" that is stopping power I think" And how is the recoil...?

the moose was knocked off its feet as if you slamed it with a mack truck.

recoil is considerable you definatly know it went off. after a while i have learnd to manage it.

I just ran the perm wound channel numbers for the guns under discussion. Entering metplate as the bullet diameter, assuming here someone is using very flat nosed bullets, I get the following for numbers to compare:

2 bore wound channel comes out at 4.9" inches!!!!
No wonder, that's a very big hole.

3.7" hole for the four bore.

2.5" for the 450 Nitro.

A 375 would give you a 2.1" hole, with a 2800 fps bullet.

Oldsarge: I agree that ANY rifle, with percise shot placement, that hits a vital nerve center, or brain, or, a major organ, can cause immediate damage sufficent to knock down a buffalo.

A brain shot with a 7 X57, Bells' favorite, will kill anything on land, period, instantly.

I'm going to suggest you guys are just very good shots, and that could be the explanation for the dropping so promptly.

I think the wound channel calculations are helpful in explaining why a bad shot with a 4 bore is more likely to cause incapacitation sooner then a 375, or 450 Nitro.

2 inch hole punched in the animal, vs. a 4 inch hole.

I think with this size, and nature of animal, all we do is try and hit a vital organ, or nerve center. We are deluding ourselves, I think, that any badly placed shot, with a rifle we can, or I would fire, from my shoulder, is going to do fatal damage to any of these animals, except, perhaps, a 2 or 4 bore. Still, the guy that killed the buffalo with a 4 bore I posted to earlier said the buffalo went 60 yards, turned, and was set to attack before they found him, mortally wounded.
What if that 60 yards had been right at the guy that shot him??

I think two bore type rifles do have a place, as a stopper for short range, charging animals.

I see no reason you need a slug 2 bore weight, but, I like the diameter, at slightly higher velocity. I wonder what weight the bullet has to be to go 40 or so inches on a buffalo, but, still have that 1.3" diameter bullet?

In other words, how about a flat nosed bullet, at say, a light 1000 grains? Pure linotype or something.

At 2250 a 1000 grain bullet, that diameter, would
give you a 7.3" wound channel.
It would also reduce penetration by about 66%, from a relative 30 to 8.45. Still, that might be plenty for a stopper. It would generate a paltry
11,244 foot pounds of energy, and, might be nice and manageable, recoil wise...

This would also, in a 20 pound rifle, reduce recoil from 437 pounds with the normal load, to an easy to absorb, 80 ft-lbs.

Now that's my idea of a stopper...

s

Black Powder:
What's the lightest bullet you can shoot out of the 2 bore?

Any keith style slugs?

Same with 4 bore...

Thanks

s

Socrates and black-powder-big-bore....!

I have forget one thing the biggest bullet diameter that is legal in sweden for hunting is 20 mm and the 2-bore and 4-bore is well over 20 mm.

That is the reason to why we only have the caliber 12 shotgun as the biggest here in sweden.

But I am sure that a .700 BMG IMPROVED will do a bigger wound in any animal than a 2-bore..." a 1000 grain woodleigh SP bullet at 3000 f/s "

OK:
You don't have to hit them with the gun. To fire it from your shoulder, the muzzle brake will have to create so much blast it will knock the animal down out of fright

s

.700 caliber bullet at 2800 should leave a perm wound channel of 4.9".

Certainly adequate...
s

How big diameter "caliber" is the 2-bore in MM...???

Socrates...!

A 1000 grain bullet in the 2-bore... Do you mean a 100% flat bullet

the lightest projectile in any given caliber is the round ball there for the lightest ball in my 2 bore is 3500grs in pure lead i would reduce waight slightly by going to a higher tin/lead mix. but only by a small amount

oh and by the way i have fired a 700 nitro and i have seen animals taken with this caliber and the wound channel is only 1/2 to 3/4 of that done by the 2 bore also the 1000grn bullet is far to short for the 700 caliber and there for the sectional density is far to low the 577 can easly out penetrate the 700 but only because it has proper bullet legnth the bore ratio.

OK:
When I posted that, I was thinking of a bullet sort of like a Keith, but very short. Similar to
a the big, flat, round, shotgun sabots.

They kind of look like thick manhole covers.
Even if they tumble, you would really know you got hit with one.

s

Actually, assuming it is the same Buffalo/pistol story, Seyfried's PH had no gun at all. I kind of give his PH friend the bravery/understatement award, for standing behind him, (and staying there!!) unarmed, as they spot the wounded buffalo in the Mapone and he said, "Shoot well, he's coming."

black-powder-big-bore...!

I dont mean the .700 Nitro Express I mean a .700 BMG IMPROVED that is a .50 BMG case opened to take caliber .700 bullets and this caliber can shoot 1000 grainers at 3000 f/s. And the .700 Nitro can shoot a 1000 grain bullet to maybe 2100 f/s. But a 1200 grain bullet in caliber .700 BMG IMPROVED will make the same hole as a 2-bore or even bigger if it expand to over the double orignal diameter. A custom built Hawk Bullet will do that.

What game have you seen be taken with the .700 Nitro and how was the effect...?

Thanks...!

Socrates, if your anything like me and my mate we have a bit of addiction for big bores, that is why we purchased our .416's this was not enough so we built .585's which I should have in my grimy little hands in a few weeks If you get the chance get a big banger like the .660 OK or the .585 Nyati. I am devestated that this .600 OK has been invented after I have spent all my cash on having my .585 built.

Black powder is it possible for you to post some picks of your 2-bore & the round balls it fires and how much do they cost. Are they easy to load etc. I am just amazed that you have such a monster cannon. The recoil from your 2-bore would make my .585 Nyati look like a starters pistol wouldn't it ???

Is it true that the .585 Nyati will out penetrate the .700 nitro with 1000 gr bullets.

Socrates just to add, the only time I feel I do not notice the recoil from my .416 is "in the heat of the Hunt" were I just raise my rifle and shoot and do not really think about recoil due to the fact there are to many other more pressing stimuli that your sorting through before the issue of recoil. I'll report back to you if this holds true with the .585 Nyati.

black-powder-big-bore...!

What is the weight on your 2-bore...? and how much did it cost you???

Thanks...!

black-powder-big-bore...!

I really want to know what the weight is on your 2-bore. If the bullet weight is 3500 grain and loaded with 500 grain powder and the bullet get a velocity of 1500 f/s. And if your 2-bore have a weight of 55 pounds (25 kg Then the recoil energy is 335 joule. And my .460 has around 80-90 joule... Do you have any muzzle brake on it???

my 2 bore waights 25 pounds and i mistyped the velosity of the 2 bore it is 1350fps sorry for the mistake

no i dont have a muzzel break on the gun it has a tapered octagon barrel 30" long.

oh and i know of some 1 who will make this gun for 2550 us$

blck-powder-big-bore...!

If the weight on your 2-bore is 25 pounds. And is loaded with 500 grain powder and a 3500 grain bullet at 1350. Then the recoil energy will be 600 joule... How is the recoil really?? My .460 wby has a recoil energy around 80 joule. So I dont think any human can shoot a rifle with over 6 times .460 recoil???