I've got this opportunity to buy a gun I'm very interested in, but I have only until Monday, tomorrow, to decide. Otherwise it's going off to auction. In other words, I have almost no time to decide here and so your help will be greatly appreciated.

It's an Oberndorf double square bridge Mauser custom build. I'm told that alone is supposed to bring a substantial premium in the price. Can't find the builder's name on it, but we're still looking. It has the banded type front sight, sling swivel band and 1/4 rib (I'm told, not integral to the barrel), and excellent engraving, a Zeiss scope, and very nicely done checkering, and ebony fore end tip. Also has the thick black soft recoil pad that's typically seen on these guns (I can't remember the name but you know what I mean). The wood is very dark finely grained English walnut. Weight feels about 9 1/2. Barrel length is about 23. The stock also has the enlarged magazine area to hold an add'l round (not the add-on drop box however).

There is no mercury reducer and no internal strengthening of the stock, such as a steel rod or anything like Weatherby uses.

It's chambered for .460 Weatherby, which I do NOT want to shoot. So I'm thinking of buying it to re-barrel to one of these: .404 Jeff, .338 Win Mag, .416 Rigby, .375 H&H or .458 Win Mag.

I'm told the existing barrel might could be used if I wanted to enlarge to .500 Gibbs, but I don't want to shoot that. So, I would have no need of the .460 barrel. I'm also told it would be impossible to get much for it or to trade it on a barrel I would want.

I also already have a very similar custom gun in .416 Rem Mag, but it's an Interarms standard Mauser action. It was built by F. Wells. At a quick glance you could mistake one for the other.

I can buy it for $8,500 but I believe the seller would go $7,500.

Does that sound like a good or bad deal financially?

What would you think is a reasonable price for it considering my ideas of re-barreling?

Which cartridge would you have it re-done in?

And, what do you think I might could get after re-barreling it?

1. I wouldn't spend $7500 on an rushed impulse rifle purchase (which is what you'd be doing) without knowing everything about that rifle. IMO, this is a bad deal.

2. Not having seen it, $3500 tops.

3. I'd leave it a .460Wby and load it down to .458 Lott levels. If compelled to change it, I'd go .470 Mbogo.

4. $3500. I still don't know who built the rifle.

George

As they say, pics would be great to help in this situation. With that, it does not sound like a bad price, if you want to keep it in the original chambering. You might be able to rebarrel to 416 Rigby as the case head size is very similar to the 460 Wthby. The others you mentioned are a lot smaller and I think it would be prohibitive to have someone try to alter the bolt face to use the smaller cartridges, not to mention that the rails have probably been opened for the much large case size of the Weatherby.
The other problem with rebarreling is that to duplicate your barrel, banded front sight, and quater rib, I would guess you are looking at the better part of $2K.
I have owned a couple of 460's and despite what seems to be the common belief on this site, you DO NOT have to shoot full power loads in it. If you handload you can drop it down to Lott or even Win. Mag. velocities and do so at very low pressure. Your brass will last a long, long time. I have shot my 460 next to a 458 Lott at the same velocity and it may be just me, but I find the recoil in the 460 less in that velocity range. The guns were about the same weight.
So, if you want to keep it as a 460 it sounds like a good deal, if you want to redo it, you could probably add 2-3K more to the price.
Seems like I was typing the same time George was, but he was a bit faster!

I agree with the Posters above.

The only thing going for it is it is a "Oberndorf double square bridge Mauser" but not at $7500.

(If it was a MAGNUM Mauser, then I'd look more closely but even then,
I wouldn't pay that much of a premium for it.)

I could think of better ways to achieve what you are trying to achieve.

Let it go to auction and see if it sells.

Good luck.

.

Any rifle at $7,500 or so is hard to move these days, especially without knowledge of the builder or something of it's provenance.

For $7500 you could have a quality custom built for you that fits perfectly and in the caliber you ultimately want. Remember that buying something to change later will be much more costly unless you are qualified to do it all yourself.
I guess I would also say no.

If however you let them take it to auction and attend you may be able to buy it at a fraction of the cost. The custom gun market is always a gamble and you might bid and get it for a song. Get in contact ahead of time and establish your bidding credentials. Then request contact or make contact on the day of the sale, make the minimum offer they will allow and wait to see if it goes unsold.
Even if they set a too high reserve and it doesn't sell you will be in position to make a little better offer when it comes back.
Frank

quote:

(If it was a MAGNUM Mauser, then I'd look more closely but even then,
I wouldn't pay that much of a premium for it.)

I forgot to say it, but it IS a magnum Mauser action. That is I think, plus the double square bridge and engraving, what's interesting about it, aside from just being a good looking piece.

I have already asked my smith for a rough, rough idea on the re-barrel job and he thinks about, but at least, the $2K figure that congomike mentioned. That was a good guess.

I've just done a little internet research on the Lott and the Weatherby .460 and "preliminary indications" are that the .460 may not be a good candidate to reduce in loading below Lott levels (but that the Lott itself lends itself to variances in handloading better). At any rate, I'm not a handloader, so everything in that regard I'd have to get done by someone else.

Frankly, for recoil control reasons, my 450/400 feels about right and I'm really at my limit with my .416 Rem Mag and don't think I want to shoot Lott ballistics in this gun if at all. I really would like more heft in a gun for that.

In searching around the net, I discovered (maybe, I'm not real sure) that Mauser themselves in 1998 produced some magnum double square bridge guns marked Mauser. Apparently they saw a market for those. Anyway, the lack of an obvious builder's name has me now wondering if in fact it's a recent Mauser factory production. Anyone know more on that theory?

Shack

Well, my suspicions have been confirmed.

The reason I said what said was "double square bridge" and "460 Wby" made me think it could be.

I still wouldn't pay that much of a premium for it as the calibres you are looking at ".404 Jeff, .338 Win Mag, .416 Rigby, .375 H&H or .458 Win Mag" do not require it - unless of course you really really want a Magnum Mauser action.

In fact, I would NOT use a Magnum Mauser for these. I have one (an Original 505 Gibbs) and the bolt throw is longer and does take a little bit of getting used to.

The other thing is - when was it made. If recent production, then I'd go down another route to achieve what you are trying to do, if old production, then you need to decide how much you want an old one.

One of the other posters correctly (IMHO) highlighted the fact that the bolt face may already have been opened up and you are wanting to put a smaller case head into this with all the inherent problems.

From my perspective, I wouldn't buy it and spend the money on getting a custom gun made that fits the cartridge and you.

Hope that helps. Good luck.
.

quote:

It's chambered for .460 Weatherby, which I do NOT want to shoot. So I'm thinking of buying it to re-barrel to one of these: .404 Jeff, .338 Win Mag, .416 Rigby, .375 H&H or .458 Win Mag.

As someone else mentioned, you're going to have trouble getting something like a 338 Win or 375 H&H because the bolt face is already too big for them. Also as mentioned above, if you re-barrel the rifle it's going to put you out a pretty penny to get a quarter rib, sights, barrel band, bluing, barrel installed, etc.

Unless you want a 460 Weatherby, which it sounds like you don't, let it pass to someone who does. There's plenty of other rifles out there in a caliber you want that you can readily buy. From a quick search on Guns International, here's a Dumoulin 416 Rigby with the barrel band sling swivel, quarter-rib, double square bridge, etc., for just $6,000. Seems like a better route than dealing with the 460.

Sounds about 4k too much for a caliber you don't want. For less, you can buy a double rifle.

I sure wouldn't pay $7500 for and action that would be difficult to change into something I wanted to shoot and a stock that wasn't built for me.

Save a bunch of money and pm me. I've got a custom Leonard Brownell Mauser in .375 weatherby mag on the cheap at $1999, with a nice Leupold scope. Much better caliber and more versatile.. Mike

I'd spend $5,500 on a Sabatti Double of your choice and Bank the rest.

If (that's a big if) I was interested in a .460 it would probably be something like this - http://www.champlinarms.com/De...StyleID=2&GunID=1988. That's a ten something pound gun with a muzzle brake.

Anyway, what would you guys think about that $7,500 on the Mauser I was looking at if it had been a .416 Rigby? If it was as I described would that make it worth the price?

One other question, if they call back and drop it to $4,500 what would you say, assuming the smith can convert to Rigby for no more than $2,500?

Btw, as much as I appreciate all responses, the gun does fit me fine, and I'm not really interested in the Sabattis...I've already got a Searcy..

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:

Anyway, what would you guys think about that $7,500 on the Mauser I was looking at if it had been a .416 Rigby? If it was as I described would that make it worth the price?

If it was an original Magnum Mauser in 416 Rigby, yes, if custom, maybe depending on how much I wanted it, if it fitted me etc etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
One other question, if they call back and drop it to $4,500 what would you say, assuming the smith can convert to Rigby for no more than $2,500?

Maybe, it's your money, you need to decide what you want. Personally, I wouldn't and would put the money on finding a gun I wanted and / or getting one built to my specs that fitted me.

Just my HO.

quote:

Maybe, it's your money, you need to decide what you want. Personally, I wouldn't and would put the money on finding a gun I wanted and / or getting one built to my specs that fitted me.

Just my HO.

+1

The problem is, I really like that gun. At any rate, I have until tomorrow to decide something, and in the meantime if y'all don't mind I'll tell you a little story (it has a point...I promise).

This Mauser reminds me of other times when I saw some gun I just "couldn't live without". The last time this happened it was a Colt .45 Single Action Army. It seems I've been fooling with guns for 60 years and never seen one as fine looking before. What someone had done was to acquire an 1800s Peacemaker and sent it to Colt where their most well known engraver did the most expensive engraving job they offer. The engraving was then highlighted. To top it off, it was given not just elephant ivory stocks, but aged ivory with a wonderful "mellow" look.

Problem was, the guy who did all this spent way too much money. And when it was put up for sale, the price sticker said $6,200.

Well, after nearly buying it several times I went on Colt's forum and asked for advice. To a man, they all gave it a firm thumbs down.

The price was the problem of course, but they pointed out some things I hadn't thought of. It was a 1st Generation SAA without a smokeless powder proofmark, which means it was fit only for shooting black powder and you wouldn't even consider doing that with a piece so grand. And the work done was factory (that's good), but it didn't come originally like that in the 1800s (that's bad). Then I realized how the price had been set. I added the cost of the original gun and the improvements, then added the store's 20% seller's commission and the state's 9 1/2% tax and it came out real close. So, they were going to hose me down for all the seller's costs. I could have had a gun built like that myself too.

So I backed off. They were disappointed as I already had an appointment to have their smith examine it (they wouldn't even allow me to remove the cylinder to look at it).

It's still there. That's been a couple years now.

Oh, I would still love to have that Colt, but for more like a third of what they were asking.

You see the point. So thanks guys for the advice.

Btw, I think a problem some of us older shooters run into is we know we're running out of time and when we see that gun we've always wanted, we figure it's now or never and that we'll just enjoy it while we can and not worry about the cost. Problem is, then our families are royally stuck down the road with owning something that'll just sit and sit on someone's shelf and to get rid of it at all, they'll have to sell at a loss or just own indefinitely, even when they aren't into this like we are.

I've been trying to keep that a little more in mind lately..

Good story, now I can see you crystalising in your mind your thought process
- which is good because before I thought you were all over the place.

By the way, re the Magnum Mauser - have you checked by measuring it or do you know for sure just by looking at it ? Or did they just say it was. I have seen people duped before.

Good luck.

You mean, is it really a magnum? No, I haven't measured it. But I believe it is a magnum double square bridge Mauser. I've already owned two custom Mausers (the .416 Rem and a .257 Wby) both standard actions and this one looks longer than those. The .416's an Interarms and the .257 looks to be a military Mauser. This one's bolt travels farther back and the action looks like it has more room for something bigger. But the main reason I'm convinced is because I'd be buying it from a very experienced gunsmith who's proven over many years that he knows his stuff, and that's what he says it is.

He's also done a good job of describing the process for a re-barrel and what he's told me on this and other guns, including doubles, jives with what I've been reading here.

quote:

the state's 9 1/2% tax

Sounds like California ...

Shack, have you done a cost comparison between re-barreling the 460 vs. building a 338/375/416 on a commercial action that copies the look and design of the 460 you described?

Well, no one likes the 9 1/2%, but it's a trade-off for no state income tax...we've so far managed to swat down all attempts by high tax "progressive" politicians to stick us with that. They have "promised" to lower the sales tax if we'll just come to our senses and roll over for a personal income tax to go with the sales tax.

Anyhow, on the guns a cost comparison's not a bad idea and I would go in that direction if I was going to pursue this. I already have a very rough idea of the cost to dupicate this one, and it would be at least and probably more than $7,500.

On the re-barrel what I'm still thinking about is offering them $3,500 for the gun as is, and then buy a new .416 Rigby barrel and offer something within $1,000 to switch them and re-solder the existing rib, sights and swivel band and blue the barrel, if it doesn't already come blued. The idea being, to be out the door totally for $5K or less. And then try to sell the .460 barrel on the side. And then sell my existing custom commercial Mauser .416 Rem Mag to cover most of the cost of the change-over (it's very much a look-alike anyway, but was acquired inexpensively).

If no one is interested, that's really OK, because I'll still have the existing gun, which could be sold real quickly for a small profit when I get to that point.

quote:

Well, no one likes the 9 1/2%, but it's a trade-off for no state income tax...we've so far managed to swat down all attempts by high tax "progressive" politicians to stick us with that. They have "promised" to lower the sales tax if we'll just come to our senses and roll over for a personal income tax to go with the sales tax.

Well, can't be California, we've got a state income tax too.

Shack, if your 416 Rem is a "look-alike" to the 460, why bother with this 460? It sounds to me like you want the 460 because you like the way it looks (since you have no desire to shoot the 460). If they look the same, what's the point in selling a Rem Mag for a Rigby?

If you really want a Rigby, seems illogical to go through all that work when you could buy a CZ550 (which is a Double Square Bridge Magnum Mauser Length Action with Mauser CRF) for $1000 then have a gunsmith, like Wayne at AHR, make it look all pretty like the 460.

Well, I visited "it" again today and the $3,500 didn't go over too well.

Anyway, we examined the gun in a little more detail and weighed it. It's actually 11 lb even and not the 9 something I had thought.

And it has European claw scope mounts. And the rib, front sight and barrel band are not add-on. They are integral to the barrel. I hadn't noticed all that before. The stippling effect on the rib is rather attractive too.

Still were not able to find any builder's name, but the smith says he's certain it's not a factory job. He also looked at the bolt face and tried some .416 Rigby cases in it and they fit the action and bolt face perfectly. Apparently no work would need be done to the action. I think we're in agreement that it should have been done as a .416 Rigby.

We talked about downloading the .460 and he said the case was similar in size to .450 NE cases that he has successfully downloaded to approximate black powder loads. We didn't explore that further however.

Btw, the gun comes out of an estate with many other "neat things" including a whole rack of old English double shotguns (like a Purdey and others) and even an 8 bore BP Greener muzzleloader. I've never seen one of those in person. I'm more interested in old American doubles, but there were none.

The hunt goes on...

Well the Magnum Mauser was designed for the 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs
so it is logical it would fit nicely.

Stipling always looks good when well done,
I think Holland's do it really well.

2 good examples

http://forums.accuratereloadin...141002441#6141002441

http://www.cabelas.com/product...44%3FWTz_stype%3DGNP


.

Believe it or not I've actually seen that first link in just looking around here. That style bolt is rather funky looking, no? Anyway, the wood on "it" is quite a bit better looking than those Hollands pictured. Of course, I fully understand those are NOT their best work.

But, yes, stippling really does something on just about any weapon...I can even think of some good examples on handguns as well.

Just for anyone's amusement who may have been following this, here's what happened - I let it go on down the road. We did some last minute negotiating, and got to $300 apart but I wouldn't budge further and neither would they. So it's on its way to auction.

We did figure out the builder, or at least one of them. The name of Darwin Hensley, the stock builder, was found on the gun's inside. I'm told that will increase its value at auction.

My reasons for not "pulling the trigger" on it -

The good advice I got here; the fact that it's a .460; the fact that it's a .460 with no muzzle brake (huge factor); the fact that the rib and sights are machined integral to the barrel which makes barrel replacement a lot more expensive; doubts about disposing of the .460 barrel; reluctance to part with the custom .416 Mauser I already have; and doubts that I could get my investment back or show a profit on a future sale of the re-barreled .460.

So now watch it bring $19K or something at auction...wouldn't be the first time I guessed wrong.

Hey, I do not think you were wrong using the rationale you have posted. If they don't sell it you will get the budge if you wanted it later but I think you can build a quality rifle for that or less.
Have you talked with some of the qyuality builders that sign on at AR? I am sure if you list the things you want you can get a quote for the future. You may even ask to have similar to your .416.
Frank

Thx for the advice Frank. I know I can get anything built by somebody or other, but I don't have a wish list beyond a few known pieces that wouldn't be custom.

Btw, out of sheer curiousity I've done a little looking into downloading the .460. Hornady doesn't load for it. But I did find data on Norma's website. They listed a minimum load for the 500 gr that's 2379 fps. It also appears that 2300 is, according to Federal, the fps for a 500 grain in .458 Lott. So, that has it at slightly above Lott ballistics. I couldn't find anything about it being loaded lower. I also called Weatherby and they confirmed that they only produce the .460 with a muzzlebrake (maybe the .378 too) and that they don't provide handload data.

I'm only guessing, but I suspect the concern with downloading is, it's a big case with relatively slow burning powder and if the amount is reduced you could be OK for a few rounds but eventually consistently and pressure spikes may be problematic. I'm not a handloader however and don't know if that's a fact.

I also checked for comparison to see what Win's now doing in factory .458 Win Mag. The 500 grain they have listed at 2240 fps - almost the same as the Lott.

Anyway, I believe I'll go back now to trying to complete the collection of old Winchesters. I've noticed that collectors haven't caught unto the .351s yet and they're historically interesting pieces. I've also never owned a pre-64 Model 70 Super Grade "African" .458 Win Mag. There weren't that many made. Any guesses as to what the fair value of one should be?

Shack

In regards to downloading, think and look towards English calibres for examples,
not US one's - apart from using slightly less powder in US one's.

We all download our Big Nitro cases at some point - be it for pigs, visitors, 75% rule or whatever.

Plenty of slow powders that fill cases up, even with reduced loads.

Also, only a small change (decrease) in the amount of powder used
makes quite a difference to recoil and felt recoil - it's not like you are dropping 20% - well, I don't think you would need to go that far.

Using lighter bullets also helps.

I won't comment on using fillers as I don't use them and not sure if they are OK in the 460.

Kept looking and found this - http://petloads.com/members/se...r%20Reloading%20Data. Also looked at Alliant Powders without finding anything.

Since I'm not a handloader, I'd have to hire someone to understand all that and decide if it's a good idea, and I'd have to ship them my gun so they could acquire the components, test it, chrony it, carry it out and then ship it all back. I also don't know if it would involve fillers. And that's not even considering what down-loading would do with the sights already on the gun.

All in all, I wouldn't want to go there. I tend to believe a .460 Wby is best left to those who appreciate it for what it is and are content to run it with factory ammo. Otherwise, why buy it at all? The same would be true I think of any gun. Why even buy a .30-06 if it's going to be downloaded to .30-30?

I can see however how the big Weatherby would be just the thing for taking dangerous game at 70 yards instead of 7 yards..

Shack

One of the reasons for down loading big bores
is it does allow you to practice technique in quantity without getting the shit kicked out of you at every session.

Then as you become better, increase to full loads and oila, once you have it, you don't often lose it.

It is also useful where you are going after non DG, ie pigs - lighter bullets, smaller loads work just as well without the penalties of full loads, and you get to use your big bore !!!

.

Yes, you're right of course. Fact is, I've got some downloads already, for a 450/400. They were available and so I got 'um. Actually the full loads are not bad enough to need those for recoil reduction and practice. So I may or may not use them. But it was interesting just learning about them.

Downloading the .460 however I don't see. Balancing off the advantages vs. effort required seems a good argument in favor of going with a .458. Btw, I was a little surprised at Win's fps on new factory ammo on those. Apparently they've increased the velocity?

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Yes, you're right of course. Fact is, I've got some downloads already, for a 450/400. They were available and so I got 'um. Actually the full loads are not bad enough to need those for recoil reduction and practice. So I may or may not use them. But it was interesting just learning about them.

Downloading the .460 however I don't see. Balancing off the advantages vs. effort required seems a good argument in favor of going with a .458. Btw, I was a little surprised at Win's fps on new factory ammo on those. Apparently they've increased the velocity?

I hadn't noticed the change in velocity.

What do they "claim" nowadays ?

.

http://www.winchester.com/prod.../Pages/S458WSLS.aspx

Wiki says 2,192 is "standard". There are various velocities from others. I think it's such a prominent round that, to use a handgun analogy, it's like the .44 Magnum in that a lot of people load for it and each offers you a different take on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
http://www.winchester.com/prod.../Pages/S458WSLS.aspx

Wiki says 2,192 is "standard". There are various velocities from others. I think it's such a prominent round that, to use a handgun analogy, it's like the .44 Magnum in that a lot of people load for it and each offers you a different take on it.

Shack,

I like your handle!

I agree with you about the .44 Magnum analogy...I've loaded for it as well as the .458 Win Mag. It's quite "normal" to get 2150 to 2200 fps from 500gr handloads for the Win Mag. Actually, that can be exceeded slightly, depending on barrel length, components, etc.

I've studied the .460 Weatherby possibility for my CZ550 in .458 Win to some depth and come to the conclusion that it's not worth it for some of the reasons you've mentioned. That would work, by the way, in a simple rechamber job, work on rails, bolt face, etc. Could be done at minimal cost, but the after-costs wouldn't be a blessing in my view: recoil factor, wear-n-tear on rifle, resale value, etc.

Downloading by a couple hundred fps is a possibility, but then you are still at or above a Lott. Plus... many powders for magnums are designed to function within certain psi parameters. To run a .460 WBY at 2300 to 2400 fps with 500s, I don't get either, since it's not needed for anything.

My goto load for my CZ in .458 Win Mag is a 350TSX at 2750 fps. COL is 3.45" (crimped into bottom cannelure). It's consistently accurate with an extreme spread of 4 fps! I hadn't shot the rifle since spring so decided to check out that load (put together in June/10) and last week two were fired at 100 yds. Results? They were touching at dead center with a spread of less than 1/2"! That's where I had sighted the rifle for a bear hunt the previous year. One shot at 90 yds... one dead bear (Sept./09). I think I'll leave well enough alone!

Get yourself a .458 Win Mag and that will be all the Big Bore you'll ever need (IMHO). But... not necessarily "want"

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Get yourself a .458 Win Mag and that will be all the Big Bore you'll ever need (IMHO).

True. I get 2200 out of 500 grain Hornady solids from a 20" barrel using Accurate 2230. And "accurate" they are. That will take anything down. Recoil is noticeable, but not too much to handle for a 68 year old guy.