Ritterbusch has launched a new and improved webite now, with more details then his previous one. And his guns are as beautiful as always:

http://www.ritterbusch-rifles.com

The downside is that his prices have jumped up several thousand Euro!

No ENGLISH LANGUAGE VERSION YET?

Erik,

Thanks for the link. I did find it somewhat strange that the designers put an elaborate website up but they have the same picture for every rifle category.

Hopefully the site would be updated with category specific pictures.

Best wishes and thanks again,

Erik,
The MOD; Europe in 9.3x64 is my ultimate {dream} scoped rifle. That and a HEYM double would be a great great African battery.
Unfortunately the price, even if it were Aus$ is just out of reach, anyway I have a nice old FN Husky 9.3X62 on its way which is not to expensive to let a tracker carry in the Jesse while I have the 470NE at hand.
Cheers,
Adam C

quote:

I did find it somewhat strange that the designers put an elaborate website up but they have the same picture for every rifle category.

Darn I thought they had found a huge supply of exactly the same stock grain.

If one look at the pick on top of this page, and look at the way this scope is mounted, sanity of theese folks are in question. Besides that, nice rifles.

http://www.ritterbusch-rifles.com/index.php?id=130000

Bent,

I totally agree. Very strange, but I've seen this before on German rifles. I guess it's a culture/heritage thing???

Ritterbush makes fabulous rifles.

What price range?

IMO, the English language page will be forthcoming. There is a UK flag up next the German flag to click on for language, but it is no illuminated yet. That indicates that yes, we'll have an English page sooner or later.

Further, I'd have to say that there's too much English on the website to begin with for there not to be something for us non-German speakers coming soon.

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Bent,

I totally agree. Very strange, but I've seen this before on German rifles. I guess it's a culture/heritage thing???

are you refering to the claw mounts?

Bent:

All I see are garden variety Claw mounts - the best detachable scope mounts in the world. The Germans have been making them for 100 years. Surely your comment was tongue in cheek?
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Bent,

I totally agree. Very strange, but I've seen this before on German rifles. I guess it's a culture/heritage thing???

are you refering to the claw mounts?

New Guy,

I'm referring to this mount:


Although it is "classic" German, it is just not to my taste, as this one brings the scope way too high up and back since it is ontop of the squarebridge. Had it been fastened infront, as is often done, it would have been a bit lower. IMO. Note, I am not talking about not liking clawmounts in general. Bent's comment may be tongue in cheek, but mine was not!

Very high, yes, but the most crazy thing is how far back the scope is mounted!!!! About 4" further back than usual. How would anybody mount a rifle like this??????? 500 Grains, do you have any comments on this? I have seen it before on some picks of some french rifles you posted.

Claw mounts by itself is a grand thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Very high, yes, but the most crazy thing is how far back the scope is mounted!!!! About 4" further back than usual. How would anybody mount a rifle like this??????? 500 Grains, do you have any comments on this? I have seen it before on some picks of some french rifles you posted.

Claw mounts by itself is a grand thing.

A better solution is a claw mount where the front claw receptacle is on the barrel shank rather than on the front receiver ring.

However, keep in mind that a gunsmith can only perform work which a client authorizes, and if a stubborn German client wanted his scope mounted like that, then that is what he got.

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
Bent,

I totally agree. Very strange, but I've seen this before on German rifles. I guess it's a culture/heritage thing???

are you refering to the claw mounts?

New Guy,

I'm referring to this mount:


Although it is "classic" German, it is just not to my taste, as this one brings the scope way too high up and back since it is ontop of the squarebridge. Had it been fastened infront, as is often done, it would have been a bit lower. IMO. Note, I am not talking about not liking clawmounts in general. Bent's comment may be tongue in cheek, but mine was not!

You're right - not well executed, but the mounts themselves are ideal for QD use. Some may be as reliable, but IMO none is easier to use than these German claw mounts.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

A better solution is a claw mount where the front claw receptacle is on the barrel shank rather than on the front receiver ring.

However, keep in mind that a gunsmith can only perform work which a client authorizes, and if a stubborn German client wanted his scope mounted like that, then that is what he got.

Dan,
All respect to you, but do you really think a freak-gun, despiced by the gunsmith, would be used in adverticing?
And do you think a common man has much to say against master gunsmiths like theese?

Here comes a pick of a french rifle, Gammes, you posted some time ago. A real beauty, and I am sure it is first class all the way through. But, the claw mount is on the barrel, and still way to far back for anybodys face.


And also, way to high. Seems to me, some makers are to set in the old ways to understand the new. Seems to me that theese makers have not grasped the idea that a scope is suposed to be looked through, not at.

Bent:

A lot of the European scope set-ups look like that. The scopes on these two rifles can't go much lower because of the objective bell. They probably can't go much further forward because there probably isn't much eye-relief, which Euro-glass is infamous for.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400:

Theese scopes shown are both standard scopes, with 9 cm (3,5") eye relief, of wich I have mounted hundreds of the last 15 years. There is no reason for them not to be mounted in a normal way. Even with clawmounts. Lack of eye relief on european scopes are a very old story, and long gone obsolete.
Mounted like abobe, it is darned near useless.
On the Ritterbush rifle it is completely useless.
Like ErikD suggests, it must be a culture/heritage thing. There are no more conservative and stubborn beeings than old craftmakers, and the old gunhouses of Europe are no exeptions. Although, I have never seen Brithish guns scoped this way.
As wallhangers I supose it does not matter, but on a working gun, close to riddiculous.

Okay, I stand corrected. The Germans and Austrians never fire a shot, are criminally incompetent as gunmakers and are only capable of making guns to look at. I didn't know that. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, as they're still having trouble figuring out how to make a scope with enough eye relief.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

You can stand however you want.
Show me ONE example out of a catalouge of european scopes, with shorter eye-relief than 8 cm.
Take a look at the picks above and tell me if you have ever seen an amerikan gun scoped that way, or that you have seen somebody with a body shaped to fit a scoped rifle like that.

IMO, this is what happens when one becomes so gloryous, that nobody dares to complain, and self-critisism is unheard of.

As for the Austrians and German hunters, the majority hunt with normal rifles. How strange, that Blasers, Sauers, Schultz&Larsens, Sakos and their likes never get scoped like this? With the same scopes?
The same scopes so many american uses.
Take your favourite deer rifle, move your scope 2" up and 4" back. Would you like to fire it?

Bent,

Sent you a PM. Not sure if you got it.

Most German hunters seem to do a lot of hunting from hochstiz. Maybe they are so rugged up that they are positioned a little further back.

Also the hochsitz may have a good rest so the fact their cheeks have to be held so far up is less a problem than having to use mainly field positions.

Just some thoughts.

Bent, Erik, Nitro, 400, 500, et al,

A couple of comments on your astute observations.

German/Austrian gunmakers are for the most part - excellent. As a general rule they don't cut corners and you get good, solid workmanship (which also costs $$$$$). Apprenticeships, Training, the Meister Prufung, Cultural hunting tradition all have a huge impact on their work. I've my own very personal experiences and opinions and this isn't the venue to air my dirty wash, either. Some observations though.....

Germans tend to shoot with a more head erect position, because the gunsmith measures this way for the scope/mount. I've personally had to argue with some due to my long neck on the position of the scope. In one case the gunsmith mounted the scope wrong after taking MY measurements and he put the scope too far back - ugh! He didn't like it but I made him re-do a complete Claw Mount. Gee, what part of the Customer is King isn't compreheneded?

The Claw Mount is excellent although it puts the scope under stress. Take a look at the front mount in the picture. Mounted so the gunsmith didn't have to put the front mount further forward entailing additional work to conform the front foot plate to the barrel contour - in this case it wouldn't have helped anyway, because of the Mauser safety.

The German penchant for the original Mauser Swing Safety instead of a side safety a lá Winchester et al. They afford no/little clearance for the safety and the rear of the scope, either the tube and/or the occular bell.

With a heavy cartridge/recoiling rifle you'll get a nice sharp jab to the cheek because there is very little cheek contact due to the high head position to accomodate scope view.

Thanks for input, Gerry.

Here is another pick that shows that they can if they want.




Now, look at this rifle, with its adjustment knobs stright over the rear bridge.



What is not shown is the end of the scope, but it is hanging over the cheek piece.

If that is not worthy a cocked eyebrow I don't know what is.

Guys, I don't actually think this is a claw mount. I think it is a pivot mount. It lacks the release mechanism found on the rear base (levers on both sides of the base) of a claw, to allow the scope to be tilted forward and out of the mount.

This picture features a claw mount:



Notice the release levers on the rear base.

However, the scope on the first rifle, is a scope you'd otherwise see used for a claw mount - due to the mount rail below the objective bell. I'm not sure anybody makes these any more, but they were used in days past to avoid the objective ring featured on the second picture. Those objective rings are somewhat problematic, not least because they almost invariably sit right on top of where the objective lens is mounted in the objective bell.

Once Ritterbusch chose to mount the scope via the mount rail under the objective ring, they were essentially f***ed, and the scope would be that high, pretty much regardless of what they did. Why this was good idea?? Beats me. But it is a consequence of the scope they used, maybe they happened to have it lying around and could afford nothing else...

The fact the front base of the claw mount (second picture) is mounted on the barrel, is an attempt to get the scope further forward. In another post over on the Gunsmithing or Medium Bore forum, we recently hashed out the same issues. If you choose to mount the scope with its objective bell above the receiver ring, you are basically out of luck both with regards to height of the scope, and how far forward you can mount it. Thus, sometimes, one sees an attempt to semi-rectify this situation by moving the front base onto the barrel. This will allow you to position the scope somewhat further forward, but not much lower. Worse still, is that now you have one base on the barrel and one on the receiver bridge. This probably works, but only until the barrel starts heating up, which will probably happen before the receiver bridge does. Problematic... In this case, it would better to have both bases on the barrel - like it is seen on a Mauser 66 or on many of the Blaser rifles - including the R93.

Don't ask me why Germans seem to be fascinated by claw mounts (actually, they are almost a thing of the past these days)?? I can see their purpose when you mount scopes on break-top guns (single shots, over-and-under combinations, drillings etc) where you don't have a lot of material to work with - not much room for screws etc. But for regular bolt action rifles, the use of claw mounts has always puzzled me. Maybe it is because it is a very traditional mount, and when you want to try to build a traditional gun... There was a US AR member who had a rifle built with claws of late (maybe 1-2 years ago?). I suspect it was also the idea of making something really classic, which prompted that solution. Claws can work OK, but they are normally expensive as anything, touchy to get right, and, as we have discussed, dictate scope position in a somewhat impractical fashion.

- mike

Mike,

You are quite right, the first is not a claw mount, but an EAW swing mount, it turns on the front ring like a Leupold standard.

The only way theese mounts impresses me, besides beeing dead accurate, is that it makes the scope extremely fast to remoove - with only one hand.

I once saw a swedish Baron fire 3 quick shots at a running moose. He used a Husquarna mod 1640 with swing mounts. The moose gave no signs of beeing hit, so the Baron, thinking his scope failed, rips the scope of and fire to more shots with iron sights before it disapperes in the woods. We found it dead after 100 paces, with 5 shots placed nicely in the right spot.
Point is, he could never remooved the scope that fast with a regular scopemount.

Still, they mount very high, even if they can be mounted considerably lower than on the pick above.

Theese days, most of my customers opt for Leupold QR or Tally at 1/3 of the price. Just as accurate, mounted for shooting.

Bent,

I have no experience with claw mounts but the Talley's don't return to zero that well, at least for me. If I shoot three and remove, then remount the scope the group moves maybe an inch or two. If I repeat, the same ocuurs and doing this three or four time gives me a three or four inch composite group at 100 yds. A three shot group with the rifle I'm talking about goes under an inch. A long string of shots would be in a group half the size if I left the scope mounted for the string.

I understand that this doesn't happen with claw mounts.

JPK

JPK,

That sounds strange? I have never had that problem with Talley's, or Warne's for that matter. Warne has a Norwegian importer, so I have used them more than Talley's lately. Leupold QR or QRW's are also very accurate. I would take that gun to a competent gunsmith for a check-up, if I were you.

Germany is a very crowded country. Its a small country with a population of about 80 million. Even so they manage their game so well that they shoot almost 2 million roe bucks, 500,000 wild pigs and 250,000 red deer a year.

In order to incorporate hunting with other land uses they do alot of shooting at night in the moonlight when nobody else is out of doors. One reason they shoot from highseats is so the bullet goes into the ground in crowded areas.

The large bells on the objective lenses of their telescope sights gather light. The thick crosshairs they use help them to shoot game in the moonlight. The scopes are mounted high because of the big objective lenses.

The German gunsmiths are on average far better and more creative than their American counterparts. Their products are better made. Although there are exceptions most American custom gunsmiths simply rebarrel and restock existing actions. If you visit someone like Hartman and Weiss in Hamburg you soon realize that all a good German gunsmith needs to make a gun is a piece of wood and a chunk of steel.

Over the years I have found most criticism of German gunsmiths, especially by American gun writers, is based on ignorance.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Even in Germany the claw mount is nowadays obsolet.
Look at catalogues from the big sellers, you will find normal mounts on the receiver front and rear bridge. Manufacturers: EAW swing mount, Blaser saddle mount, Recknagel and even american style rail mounts.
The Ritterbusch mount in question seems to me a front ring claw, because the old type of scope, combined with a rear EAW mount for easier handling the tolerances and leaving the scope stress free.
There is no apology for the higher mounts of scopes. Germans today use normal heights, even with big front lenses, nearly touching the barrel.

The removal action of a claw mount is a vertical lift. Thus the front ring becomes the hinge point as the scope is removed. If the rear ring is too far rearward, the scope will hit the barrel before being disengaged. The German solution to the extreme rearward position is a longer length of pull than we see on American guns. The European shooters learn to shoot with a vertical face position and barely touch the comb with their face. I love claw mounts but will only use a straight tubed scope for these reasons.

Claw mounts are not obsolete in Germany but they are expensive. Frankonia lists the mounting costs as starting at about 850 Euros or about $1,000. All others are much less expensive.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

I'd be curious to know the LOP of the above rifles. My guess is that they are an inch or more longer than standard allowing for a more relaxed shooting posture than commonly used by the average American "stock-crawler". In this case, the mounting system makes a bit of sense. This would also mean that, upon scope removal, the open sights could be used more effectively without bopping ones self in the nose under the recoil of a big-bore.

JMHO,

John

well icely said i agree with TED GORSLINE,GERMAN gunsmit are much better than american ones no doubt,u cannot compare ,iam not amrican either german but its like u comparing cars too german and american,american dont have that passion ,its funny when i read who makes best guns ,american say thay do thats funny,i would place USA after belgium italy england austria and germany,sorry for ignorance but i would never hunt with american gun,merkel krieghoff heym sauer is something special in hunting world that any ruger dakota arms remington winchester etc wuld never be able accomplish that art of wood and steel

USA: David Miller, Echols, Wiebe, Biesen are just a few of a dozen or so "Killer"

rifle makers who can best anyone whom they choose to best, from anywhere on

Earth, on a given day. http://www.satterleearms.com/african_magnum.htm

ACTIONS may well be the best in the world. {delivered ready to use, NO need

for further finishing, although he's had complaints about his very slow delivery}

quote:

Originally posted by lickilovac:
well icely said i agree with TED GORSLINE,GERMAN gunsmit are much better than american ones no doubt,u cannot compare ,iam not amrican either german but its like u comparing cars too german and american,american dont have that passion ,its funny when i read who makes best guns ,american say thay do thats funny,i would place USA after belgium italy england austria and germany,sorry for ignorance but i would never hunt with american gun,merkel krieghoff heym sauer is something special in hunting world that any ruger dakota arms remington winchester etc wuld never be able accomplish that art of wood and steel

lickilovac,
What you say about the mainline American gunmakers (Ruger, Winchester, Remington, etc.) is true but what BigFiveJack says about Miller, Echols, Weibe, and Biesen is also true...
Can you figure out why both statements are true?

well we can argue for sure who makes best guns but not american for sure,hunt with best and classic,well when u walk from some european store filled with merkel heym krieghoff berreta holland&holland, boss,ziegehahn hauptman fusch ,and many more u dont wann look at winchester ruger and many more guns,thare is no comparisone,its like from mercedes benz u sit in some cheep pontiac,its my opinio dont take me wrong but germany is hundreds and hundreds generations ahead of usa in craftmanship,

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
What price range?

Jarrod:

This is one of those deals that "if you have to ask, you probably can't afford it."

quote:

Originally posted by lickilovac:
well icely said i agree with TED GORSLINE,GERMAN gunsmit are much better than american ones no doubt,u cannot compare ,iam not amrican either german but its like u comparing cars too german and american,american dont have that passion ,its funny when i read who makes best guns ,american say thay do thats funny,i would place USA after belgium italy england austria and germany,sorry for ignorance but i would never hunt with american gun,merkel krieghoff heym sauer is something special in hunting world that any ruger dakota arms remington winchester etc wuld never be able accomplish that art of wood and steel

This is just so much

If you want to pay an American maker upwards of $15,000-20,000, I'll bet I can find you a pretty nice gun!