Guys, I am in the process of putting together a .450 Dakota. I have an action on order from Montana Rifle Company that would work. The other option is to order one from AHR. Finally, I found a Dakota rifle in that caliber on the Guns America site but they want $6600 for it. What are your opinions are Dakota Rifles? I am having a hard time convincing myself that they are worth $2000 more than an a gun from AHR.

Dave

Hi Dave

Are Dakotas worth the extra money? In short, they aren't.

I've had three and they are fine, but like you, I wondered if they were really worth the extra $$$. They do have a following so if you are selling, they are a better known entity and may sell easier- but otherwise, I agree with you!

Dave,

You might want to check with jorge here on AR. I believe he still has a bunch of new brass and a set of dies from his cancelled .450 Dakota project.

Andy

IMO, you can buy a lot more rifle from a custom gun maker for that kind of money..

Ray's right.you can buy a REAL custom rifle for $6600.

They make a nice $2000 rifle.

Dakota has some snob appeal, and they have to price it accordingly.

George

The resale market for Dakotas is weak, and sellers often must offer a substantial discount from what they originally paid in order to move the rifle. Not so with the top U.S. custom guns. An Echols rifle, used, will sell in a heartbeat for the price of a new one because the consumer knows it is top quality and the consumer avoids a lengthy wait for a new one.

I have a Dakota in a .375 as well as a Model 70 and have recently sold a Ruger M77. In a side by side comparison, the Dakota has better "fit and finish", a smoother action, a more stream lined stock than the other two. It has better looking open sites.

The M70 and Dakota both shoot 1" groups with .300gr. TBBC (factory). The Ruger was about 1 1/2".

I sold the Ruger because it did not fit me as well as the other two.

I have not hunted with the Dakota yet.

I am not into "pretty" guns.

I paid 4 times the price of the M70 for the Dakota. Did I get my money's worth? I am not sure yet, but it does cross my mind when the Model 70 shoots 1" groups and I do not flinch when I bump it into something.

I am not sure a "custom" gun would do much more for me at this point.

I went to the Empire Rifle facility in New Hampshire to meet them and see the guns. Very fine rifle, fine quality. I would love to have one, but would worry about the dings and shipping it to Africa and back.

Not worth it. Keep going with your project.

I have shot a .450 Dakota (Dakota Rifle) It was pretty, but not $6600 pretty. I also do not think the quality was there to justify the high price.

I made a 450 Dakota out of an older CZ 550.

It wasn't pretty, but it shot well and the entire project cost me under $800.

That is a good round BTW. A real thumper, If I had it to do over again, I might make it a 450 Rigby. Same round for all practical purposes, I just like the way "Rigby" sounds.

I own a couple Dakotas and like them. That said, if I were in the market for a 458 thumper, I would jump on the 450 Rigby for sale in the classifieds.

I have a Dakota 76 in 7mm Rem. It is a really beautiful rifle. However, I have had nothing but a problem getting it to shoot the advertised MOA since I got it. I sent it back and had it rebarreled. It now shoots less than MOA with only one round, factory or reloads, and that is Fed. 160 TSX.

I am sorry as hell that I traded a batch of guns for the Dakota, and I know if I decide to sell it I'll never get my money out of it, so I'm gonna just hunt it and shoot it at the range and leave it to a friend when I go.

Dakotas are overpriced. For the money, I could have had a much more inherently accurate custom gun. Live and learn.

Now that AR has trashed the Dakota rifle, I'll start on the cartridge lol ... Why aren't you going with the 450 Rigby? At least you know the Rigby name will be around 20 years from now, and you can buy factory ammo. You can always load it down to 458 Lott velocity if you choose.

Best of luck with your new rifle,

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
Hi Dave

Are Dakotas worth the extra money? In short, they aren't.

I've had three and they are fine, but like you, I wondered if they were really worth the extra $$$.

Ditto's

As far as the caliber goes why a Dakota 450? Even a 450 Rigby is far better for the reasons Chuck posted above. As far as Dakota rifles go I've owned 5 in the past 22 years and they all needed extra work, their quality control was non-existant for years, I presently don't own any of those rifles now, beautiful and handsome can hurt you.

Hey, I have 13 boxes of new 450 brass, plus a set of Redding & RCBS dies and a Custom Crimp die all for sale. Somebody PLEASE make me an offer I can't refuse! jorge

PS: Thanks for the "shill" Andy

Jorge, I have a set of RCBS dies and I already have 100 rounds of brass but I would probably take some of the .450 Dakota brass off your hands. Sent you a PM.

Dave

not worth the price difference over am mrc, and certinly not over a m70 custom shop rifle

and the wood "upgrades" .. wow, now there is a huge scam

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by 404WJJeffery:
Hi Dave

Are Dakotas worth the extra money? In short, they aren't.

I've had three and they are fine, but like you, I wondered if they were really worth the extra $$$.

Ditto's

As far as the caliber goes why a Dakota 450? Even a 450 Rigby is far better for the reasons Chuck posted above. As far as Dakota rifles go I've owned 5 in the past 22 years and they all needed extra work, their quality control was non-existant for years, I presently don't own any of those rifles now, beautiful and handsome can hurt you.

Dirklawyer:

I an not sure I agree that a .450 Rigby is "far better" then the .450 Dakota as they are essentially the same cartridge with a bit of a difference in the shoulder. I picked the .450 Dakota because, at the time, the only Rigby brass was from Horneber and Dakota brass was much easier to get. However, now Jamision is making .450 Rigby brass so it is a toss up. I talked with the people at Dakota and they have at least a years supply of brass and I was told that in the future, Hornaday will be making brass for them.

Dave

Jorge,
If you will break it up, I will take 3 boxes of your brass and the crimp die. I will send you a PM too.

RIP: PM sent. Done deal. Folks, only 10 boxes and two sets of dies left! jorge

I'll keep shilling for you buddy .

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

Dirklawyer:

I an not sure I agree that a .450 Rigby is "far better" then the .450 Dakota as they are essentially the same cartridge with a bit of a difference in the shoulder. I picked the .450 Dakota because, at the time, the only Rigby brass was from Horneber and Dakota brass was much easier to get. However, now Jamision is making .450 Rigby brass so it is a toss up. I talked with the people at Dakota and they have at least a years supply of brass and I was told that in the future, Hornaday will be making brass for them.

Dave

Dave, I'm not anti 450 Dakota caliber as I am gun-shy of Dakota rifles. The caliber itself is a great caliber, I shot my first buff with that caliber 17 years ago. If I had it to do over I'd have the 450 Rigby, Hornady is going to make brass for them? What Dakota says and what Dakota does is always questionable from my personal experience.

Dirk

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

Dirklawyer:

I an not sure I agree that a .450 Rigby is "far better" then the .450 Dakota as they are essentially the same cartridge with a bit of a difference in the shoulder. I picked the .450 Dakota because, at the time, the only Rigby brass was from Horneber and Dakota brass was much easier to get. However, now Jamision is making .450 Rigby brass so it is a toss up. I talked with the people at Dakota and they have at least a years supply of brass and I was told that in the future, Hornaday will be making brass for them.

Dave

Dave, I'm not anti 450 Dakota caliber as I am gun-shy of Dakota rifles. The caliber itself is a great caliber, I shot my first buff with that caliber 17 years ago. If I had it to do over I'd have the 450 Rigby, Hornady is going to make brass for them? What Dakota says and what Dakota does is always questionable from my personal experience.

Dirk

Dave,

Just lay in a lifetime supply of brass. I have about 500 cases squirreled away for my .450 Dakota, it's a bit of an investment up front but I figure if I live to be 100 I'll never use them up. Loaded reasonably the brass lasts forever.

Andy

Andy:

That's my plan. I already have 100 rounds of brass and I plan to pick up another 150 rounds or so. Jorge has been a good source for brass. I have other "big" guns and I figure 250 rounds or .450 Dakota brass ought to last me a lifetime.

Guys, you have to understand that this has been a project in the making and when I first started, the only 450 Rigby brass available was from Horneber and it was very expensive and really hard to get. That's why chose the Dakota cartridge instead.

Thanks for all your opinions on the Dakota rifle. I think that I will cross it off my list and either go to AHR or wait for a barreled action from MRC.

Dave

I wouldn't give that kind of money for one. I'm happy with my CZ 550.

Even tho they are a fine rifle well made and accurate from what I've heard.

The ones I've handled have been very well made and certainly nice-looking, but I don't know if they're worth all the $$ they charge. I've got to believe I could commission a 'smith to build me something identical for a lot cheaper.

In my experience, Dakotas M76 rifles are generally excellent. The fit and finish is tyically very good. The metalwork is tops. They feed cartridges perfectly and they tend to shoot very well.

Are they pricey? Yes, to be sure! But I have personally found that they tend to hold their value VERY well - much better, actually, than MOST other bolt-action rifles. I recently sold one used Dakota M76 Classic (to buy another Dakota) that I've had for only a few years. I sold that dakota for $350 more than I paid for it. That rarely happens with used bolt-action rifles. Dakotas do hold their value.

Are Dakotas worth their high price tag? That's a tough question. Sports cars are more expensive than everyday sedans. Perazzi shotgun cost more than Remington 870s. Yet the everyday sedan will get you to the grocery store as reliably as the sports car. And the pump 870 will kill pheasants or clay targets just as dead as any fancy Perazzi. Still, for whatever personal reasons, some prefer sports cars, Perazzi shotguns and finer rifles, like Dakotas and others.

I've had many hunting rifles over the years - Winchesters, Remingtons, Weatherbys, Sakos, Rugers and semi-custom guns as well. I still do. Most have their place. On a wet sheep mountain in the Yukon I'd rather have a light, stainless semi-custom rifle built with a Remington 700 action than anything else. At other times, I want something more classic with good wood and blued steel. It's a matter of what's appropriate AND what I WANT to hunt with.

There are times when I simply want to hunt with a rifle that's a bit special. Maybe the wood is nicer. Maybe its got good express sights. Maybe I just think I deserve it because I've worked hard all my life and this rifle and this hunt are part of the payoff.

Does anyone need a Dakota, or any other rifle that costs as much or even more? Probably not. In practical terms, you're nuts to pay that much for a rifle just to kill game. But just killing game is not the real issue here. The real question is would you LIKE to stroll through the Selous with a Dakota M76 Safari in hand? Or maybe some other even better rifle? If the answer is yes, then find a way to afford it and don't look back. At least try it.

And forget the idea that there is a perfect rifle out there. No matter what you buy, there will always be something better.

If you don’t want to use a CZ 550, AHR could build your rifle with a GMA action for around $6500. I would choose this option any day over a Dakota.

I would opt for a rifle built by Ryan Breeding, his work is second to none

http://www.rbbigbores.com/

I think Ryan Breeding rifles cost a lot more than a Dakota. He did think the Dakota actions were good enough to build at least two LH rifles if you check out the photo page of his web site.

I have owned 7 Dakotas. Some have shot well, and some haven't and have moved on. All, however, fed perfectly, were 100% reliable, and had good triggers. My experience with custom rifles has been less than stellar. I will admit that the custom rifles were bought on the used market, as I don't have the patience to wait two years. All, however, were like new and most clearly had never been hunted with. I won't mention names, since the rifles were bought second hand and I therfore didn't feel like I had the right to push the smiths "make it right" seeing as I was a secondary consumer, but I'll give a few examples. I had a beautiful 404 Jeffrey by a famous now deceased smith that wouldn't feed at all-I mean worse than a Russian made $200 pos. I had a beautiful Argentine Mauser worked over by "one of the two or three best metalsmiths in the country"-it wouldn't feed at all, and the world renowed metalsmith managed to turn the Mauser into a push feed because he buggered the extractor. Another 270 built by "the best metalsmith, bar none", doesn't feed, has a mushy trigger, and doesn't shoot. Another pre-64 30-06 I still own was built by a smith that would bring instant hosannas at the mention of his name. It feeds well but the only kicker is that it would shoot Core-lokts only-nothing else would stay inside 2 inches. I know there are Core-lokt fans out there, and I wouldn't think twice about using them on a deer or antelope hunt, but as for me I'd like a better bullet on an expensive sheep or out of country hunt. In short, several custom rifles have been big time busts. I also don't know many smiths that will deliver a complete wood stocked rifle (ie you are not supplying the action and wood) for less than $6000. I know it is fashionable to dis Dakota, and they certainly aren't perfect-the wood is indeed way overpriced, the business side of Dakota has been questionable to say the least (although supposedly things are much better now with new management), the open grip is not to everyone's taste, etc. However, I'll stick my neck out and say they ain't all that bad either. They do in fact have excellent resale. This is my experience, which obviously is at odds with what some others have experienced. As usual, YMMV.

I bought mine in May, 1994, from Kesselring's Guns in Alger, WA. and they supplied the wood to Dakota for the rifles that they sold. I got what I felt then and still do was a VERY good price as they had this in stock for about four years...during which time I had lusted after it.

They returned it to the factory for some minor fitting issues, NO cost to me and I adjusted the feeding at Donny Kesselring's advice and my own experience by substituting a P-63 W spring for the original, as it would not always feed perfectly.

This rifle shoots both 250 NPs and 225 TBBCs at max. velocities into .6" at 100M, anytime I hold it right and it is a .338WM. I LOVE the handling and balance and it is VERY nicely done, BETTER then some REALLY costly "big name"rifles by FAMOUS US makers that guys I know paid humungous dollars for, that, to me, is what counts.

I have spent my life living and working in western/northern Canadian wilderness, much of the time solo for 3 months on end, without a break. "Dude"rifles don't cut it for me and I won't own a lot of what guided sports and dudes use, as I have seen too many failures. I DO take my Dakota into the worst country, rain or shine and have never had a problem with it.

They are mechanical devices and can f**kup like any other. Overall, I have had fewer problems in harsh conditions while packing a gun everyday on the job with P-64 Mod. 70s, but, even they can fail....as can we all!

I have two Dakotas from circa 1999 and they are both excellent rifles and I have two of Dakota's kids rifles, which are also very nice rifles and from a distance could be mistaken for full size rifles since there are smaller proportionally rather than just here or there with a short sotck... The two 1999 rifles were a bit of a struggle to get right, but persistence paid off. When I received the rifles I shipped them right back because the wood wasn't up to my expectations. I also felt that the tang inletting was too generous and not needed if they bedded the rifles properly. Plus one barrel band swivel stud was a tick off center. There was more than a little resistance from Dakota on the wood, non on the barrel band, and Norma Allen was a pita to deal with, but I ended up getting what I thought I paid for.

I've handled MUCH better rifles, but then they cost MUCH more. I have tried to have several rifles built for the price of a Dakota, and I'm all but 100% sure that it isn't possible to get the combination of quality action and stock at that price, at least for a lefty.

I have yet to find an action that can be barreled and finished and then wood stocked as well as Dakota does it and come out as well as a Dakota. (I obviously agree that Dakota's wood grading and wood slection needs help, especially it seems more recently, but that can be overcome by supplying the wood.)

When you move to an action as good as Dakota's or better, you end up at a cost higher than Dakota's for a rifle stocked as well.

Having a wood stock fitted and finished as well as a Dakota stock is for a barreled and finished Montana Rifleman or Winchester action results in a rifle approaching the cost but nowhere near the rifle, imo.

Here a couple of photos to emphacise my point, sorry for the poor quality, they were taken some time ago for insurance purposes.

30-06


375H&H

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I have two Dakotas from circa 1999 and they are both excellent rifles and I have two of Dakota's kids rifles, which are also very nice rifles and from a distance could be mistaken for full size rifles since there are smaller proportionally rather than just here or there with a short sotck... The two 1999 rifles were a bit of a struggle to get right, but persistence paid off. When I ordered the rifles I shipped them back because the wood wasn't up to my expectation and there was more than a little resistance, but I ended up getting what I thought I paid for.

I've handled MUCH better rifles, but then they cost MUCH more. I have tried to have several rifles built for the price of a Dakota, and I'm all but 100% sure that it isn't possible to get the combination of quality at that price. I have yet to find an action that can be barreled and finished and then wood stocked as well as Dakota does it and come out as well as a Dakota. (I agree that Dakota's wood grading and wood slection needs help, especially it seems more recently, but that can be overcome by supplying the wood) When you move to an action as good as Dakota's or better, you end up at a cost higher than Dakota's.

Having a wood stock fitted and finished as well as a Dakota stock is for a barreled and finished Montana Rifleman action results in a rifle near the cost but nowhere near the rifle, imo.

Here a couple of photos to emphacise my point, sorry for the poor quality, they were taken some time ago for insurance purposes.

30-06



375H&H

Those are very pretty rifles.

Adrook,

Thanks.

Note that I edited my post after you captured the original since I miss labeled one photo - the small 2" versions on Photobucket were no help there.

Also to mention a couple of other issues that Dakota took care of and to mention that I speak from the perspective of a lefty.

BTW, the 375H&H is remarkably accurate and if three shots at 100yrds aren't touching in a tight cloverleaf then I can be pretty sure it is me, and thats with the low mag scope. The 30-06 is also accurate but is a bit picky with ammo and doesn't like boatail or 165gr bullets.

I hand load a solid load for the 375H&H to get the solids shooting where the softs do but haven't bothered for the softs or the 30-06 becuase they shoot so well with good factory ammo.

Both rifles are pillar and full length bedded and came that way from Dakota.

JPK

Gorgeous rifles...
but you mirror imaged the pics!

Thanks, but there not wrong handed they're left handed!

JPK

JPK, I have to agree with on the cost and time to build Montana or model 70 compared to a Dakota. Granted the cost on the Dakota has gone thru the roof since I bought mine in 1995. As a lefty they were the only manfacture that had what I wanted.

quote:

Originally posted by J_Zola:
JPK, I have to agree with on the cost and time to build Montana or model 70 compared to a Dakota. Granted the cost on the Dakota has gone thru the roof since I bought mine in 1995. As a lefty they were the only manfacture that had what I wanted.

That's why I bought mine. Having posted my opinion of mine above, I agree that the fit and finish on my rifle is near perfect. Now that I have finally located a good all around load for it, I intend to enjoy it, although getting it sorted out took two years and a lot of frustration.

Dakota's customer service improved measurably during my ordeal, and for that, they deserve credit. New management in the company may turn things around. They build beautiful rifles and I was allowed to hand select my wood. It came out quite nice.

I think for a LH shooter, Dakota makes a lot more sense simply due to the options they offer. I own 4 of them and they all have been great rifles. The 280 I own so far is slightly less than a MOA rifle however I have never spent any time working with loads to see what the rifle is capable of. My 30-06 will shoot honest sub .5" group at 100 with factory ammo...it is amazing! As a lefty I am very limited to what is available...I can't pick up an old Mauser for $50 and make a rifle out of it. Soooo...as always the final decision is in the hands of the hunter who is buying the rifle.