Just got the new issue of Guns and Ammo. Page 50 has an article on the 45-70 called "SMACKDOWN". It has a picture of a Rhino shot dead with a Garrett 540 grain bullet. It has reports of the big 6 taken with the 45-70.
The author says "I chose a model 1895 Marlin 45-70 as my personal PH rifle for Africa"
I guess he doesn't read the accurate reloading forums.

quote:

I guess he doesn't read the accurate reloading forums.

Neither do you apparently. This exact topic has been going for 3 or 4 days already.

So, because Guns and Ammo says it, it's automatically dogma? For every one successful .45/70 African DG hunt, how many do you think are conducted with a more "proper" or proven DG caliber? I just don't understand why the .45/70 folks get so bloody defensive about their pet cartridge. Lighten up Francis......

I think the difference lies in 'capable' vs. 'suitable'. Guns mags are bad for conflating the two.

The big 6 have been successfully killed in the last century with .303 Brit, 8x57, 8x60, various 6.5's, 7,62x51 in military and civilian dress, 7,62x39, 7,62x54R, .30-06, .318, 7x57, 8mm (?)Lebel and many other medium bores and military rounds under .350" and less than 250gr bullets. Of course this was preceded by muzzleloaders and .577/.450 Boxer out of the umpteen Martinis that did duty on the continent.

Sure some hunters probably got hammered, but many more probably, and did, do just fine with those mediums......capable of killing the big 6 cleanly (well especially leopard and by 'body mass logic' good on lion too), are they imminently suitable? Most would say NO.

I am sure the .45/70 can the job time and time again but I don't know why one would try tweak it to the point of its finite capability to achive this, when a .458 Win is just better at doing that!

Oh, Sorry - jumped the Gun again....Darn I do that occaisionally - sometimes just don't take time to READ carefully.

I thought 45/70's was a Bus load of Retirees on tour in Africa. Did wonder why it wasn't posted the "Africa Travel" space?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
Oh, Sorry - jumped the Gun again....Darn I do that occaisionally - sometimes just don't take time to READ carefully.

I thought 45/70's was a Bus load of Retirees on tour in Africa. Did wonder why it wasn't posted the "Africa Travel" space?

LOL!! Gerry, that's damn funny!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
So, because Guns and Ammo says it, it's automatically dogma? For every one successful .45/70 African DG hunt, how many do you think are conducted with a more "proper" or proven DG caliber? I just don't understand why the .45/70 folks get so bloody defensive about their pet cartridge.

I shot a dead by .375 H&H wildebeest point blank with my BFR right in the boiler room to see what it would do with a normalish 405 grain JSP North American loading like people use in lever guns for deer I'd been carrying as my sidearm and to plink with, hence the lever gun cheap loads. Tickled a rib on the way in but no serious bone hits, did not expand to amount to anything, did not fully penetrate the animal. Shot made from about 3 feet.

By damn I think Gerrys got it. Dr.C

I stopped believing or taking seriously anything in Guns and Ammo when they did an article on a RG 38 calling it an excellent pistol.
I like 45-70 and have been shooting them for years but I don't think I would trust my life to it with dangerous game, altho I will most likely never get to hunt Africa, so its a moot point for me. But I sure is fun to see and read the responses on these posts

The reason a few are going to the .45-70 is it's better penetration at the lower velocities than the faster rounds of the same caliber. After about 1,500 FPS, the penetration actually decreases. The higher velocity rounds have more shock value, but lack penetration. Didn't believe it till we did about 2 years of testing. Above 1,500 FPS, the faster it goes, the faster it stops! That big bullet going through a lot of bone and tissue is pretty reliable as far as getting a big hole through the vitals at a bad angle. But I still think I would take the faster rounds like maybe a .458 Lott and the increased shock and good penetration against something that wanted to bite me.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
The reason a few are going to the .45-70 is it's better penetration at the lower velocities than the faster rounds of the same caliber. After about 1,500 FPS, the penetration actually decreases. The higher velocity rounds have more shock value, but lack penetration. Didn't believe it till we did about 2 years of testing. Above 1,500 FPS, the faster it goes, the faster it stops! That big bullet going through a lot of bone and tissue is pretty reliable as far as getting a big hole through the vitals at a bad angle. But I still think I would take the faster rounds like maybe a .458 Lott and the increased shock and good penetration against something that wanted to bite me.

Bong or Pipe???

quote:

Originally posted by JOEYBONES:
"I chose a model 1895 Marlin 45-70 as my personal PH rifle for Africa"

Was it his personal rifle or his PH's rifle? The author seems to be confused about several topics and just pushing hype, which is why many of the mainstream publications are nearly worthless today.

I'll say it again- The 45-70 woudl be my choice for hunting EVERYTHING on this planet, but *only* if loaded with Match King bullets. They are the SLAYERS of all beast, large and small...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
The reason a few are going to the .45-70 is it's better penetration at the lower velocities than the faster rounds of the same caliber. After about 1,500 FPS, the penetration actually decreases. The higher velocity rounds have more shock value, but lack penetration. Didn't believe it till we did about 2 years of testing. Above 1,500 FPS, the faster it goes, the faster it stops! That big bullet going through a lot of bone and tissue is pretty reliable as far as getting a big hole through the vitals at a bad angle. But I still think I would take the faster rounds like maybe a .458 Lott and the increased shock and good penetration against something that wanted to bite me.

Bong or Pipe???

Bong. . . . .

DWright!

You weren't around during "45-70 in Africa" thread #473-82A when one of the members prooved that optimal 45-70 penetration with hard cast bullets was achieved most consistently when said projectiles were dropped (in handfuls) from tall buildings onto the Dangerous Game below.

I believe the most penetration was acheived from a 100 story building but buildings over 120 floors resulted in less penetration due to kinetic friction induced inverse cavitation.

Slower is better! While in their original factory ammo boxes they can kill anything, including elk out to 200 yards.!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Slower is better! While in their original factory ammo boxes they can kill anything, including elk out to 200 yards.!

In original factory (insert suspect manufacturer's name here) ammo boxes made minimal impression on a wildebeest at about 0.5 yards. Do a hell of a nice job on African squirrels and mongoose, though. When squirrels and baboons become dangerous game, I'll call it a DG cartridge and I'm the guy that shot a zebra with a .223.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
The reason a few are going to the .45-70 is it's better penetration at the lower velocities than the faster rounds of the same caliber. After about 1,500 FPS, the penetration actually decreases. The higher velocity rounds have more shock value, but lack penetration. Didn't believe it till we did about 2 years of testing. Above 1,500 FPS, the faster it goes, the faster it stops! That big bullet going through a lot of bone and tissue is pretty reliable as far as getting a big hole through the vitals at a bad angle. But I still think I would take the faster rounds like maybe a .458 Lott and the increased shock and good penetration against something that wanted to bite me.

yeah... and they will drill through to the earth's core, until the melt, if they just fall from 3 inches.... china is seeking gaat and un sanctions for a group of careless reloaders that dropped a box of garretts in kansas and contaminated toys being made in china...

or, how should one say it?

here is FACT without the annoying bs of a garrett load

http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

Slower = More penetration ?

The physics just doesn't add up.

Yep, I'd say that test says it all.

The Brits had a theory that handgun stopping power was better if the bullet was slower. The bullet then had more time to have an effect !! Not much physics there either ....As for the 45-70 being neither fish nor fowl -I was tempted to take the head off a turkey with mine but we don't have mixed seasons.As for fish ,I have read that big bore is the way to go for shooting sharks.Other than that I wouldn't know why you would want to fish with one.1/2 a stick of dynamite would be a better choice.

Posted 03 January 2008 01:57 Hide Post
Since the topic cannot be intelligently argued, why bother? Since the thread was declared shit-stirring by its originator, and devolved into name-calling (again), what benefit is there to leaving it open?

The .45-70 doesn't need its own forum; it can be discussed on several forums, just not intelligently, by what I've seen.

For anyone wanting to prove just how effective the 45-70 can be in Africa....

I've got one for sale and will throw in the dies...

All ya need is some hard cast bullets and a buffalo to shoot...

Joey Bones= Carmello. Need I say more? Moderators, I STRONGLY recommend this thread be locked. jorge

Folks have made up their minds (if they have them) one way or the other. Can't we just let this topic and all like it ... just wither on the vine ... DIE?

Yep, they will soon pull the plug on this thread too.

I think folks deliberately post this stuff just to
and see how far it goes.

We have the "Yey's" and "Neys", and never the twain shall meet!

Apparently for some reason the following is an insult with which some .45-70'ers find so horrible that it is akin to calling ones mother a a 2bit whore.

All you have to say is:

I don't care what you hunt with nor does anybody else. You don't need my or anybody else's permission to use your rifle. Why don't you simply book a hunt and go kill something with your chosen rifle. Please send pictures.


Apparently this is the worst insult you can possibly bestow against the .45-70 on African DG crowd.


These guys aren't interested in hunting anything about hunting or shooting. They just get a rise out of making absurd claims and sling as much shit as possible before the thread is closed.

quote:

you idiots ever actually did any testing yourselves

I wouldn't be so egocentric as to assume that you might be referring to Moi! However, if you must know, DWright, this forum frequented by idiots!! Most of us idiots do a lot of testing!!

Do you have some test results you'd like to post for us to see???

Personally, I prefer to be addressed as "Sir Idiot" or "Herr Idiot" sometimes "Super Idiot" and on occassion "Ultra Idiot". I'd like to contemplate this further but as the other Idiot says - I have to get back to selling all those bullets!

quote:

30,000 rounds a year I shoot

Are you counting your full auto .22 short DGR in that total??

30,000 / 365 = 82+ rounds per day..........

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

you idiots ever actually did any testing yourselves

I wouldn't be so egocentric as to assume that you might be referring to Moi! However, if you must know, DWright, this forum frequented by idiots!! Most of us idiots do a lot of testing!!

Do you have some test results you'd like to post for us to see???

Personally, I prefer to be addressed as "Sir Idiot" or "Herr Idiot" sometimes "Super Idiot" and on occassion "Ultra Idiot". I'd like to contemplate this further but as the other Idiot says - I have to get back to selling all those bullets!

quote:

30,000 rounds a year I shoot

Are you counting your full auto .22 short DGR in that total??

30,000 / 365 = 82+ rounds per day..........

Assuming you reload....

What a buck fifty per round ?

30,000 X $1.50 = $45,000 ........

quote:

Please take me off the member list of this forum.

Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. Thank you Lord...jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:Personally, I prefer to be addressed as "Sir Idiot" or "Herr Idiot" sometimes "Super Idiot" and on occassion "Ultra Idiot". I'd like to contemplate this further but as the other Idiot says - I have to get back to selling all those bullets!

I prefer belted magnum idiot, myself......

Don't know why we can't just all get along -- to quote Rodney King -- that pillar of morality.......

There always seems to be a lack of empirical data as to the effectiveness of the 45-70 on DG and only a few examples can be cited. Why is that? It has certainly been around long enough to at least be considered by PHs as a DG caliber, but they oddly choose other calibers. Again, why is that? I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I just don't see PHs carrying Guideguns and again must ask: Why is that?

If I offend, I apologize in advance........or not.......

Sir Idiot,
Will call you that until you verify your German heritage, then I'll call you Herr Idiot.
Oh, you have verified your heritage, herr idiot.
Jus cal me idjut.

Jorge, love your reply.
Max

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Please take me off the member list of this forum.

Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. Thank you Lord...jorge

Jorge, thank for saying what we were thinking!

Sheesh, after 5 days as a member and 12 posts he's mad and taking his ball home! You've just got wonder about these cases recently. Almost sounds like a return of one of the


Les

Nah, I'll get over it. . . . Now, what were we arguing about? Did I mention I kilt a full growd horse with a .22 CB cap?

DWright!!

I thought you took your beachball and went home?!?!

You're not allowed to throw a tantrum until you have another 1000 posts or so!!

Besides we need to teach you some basic four function math and a couple things about physics so you don't sound like Minnie Pearl!!

Nope, still here. Sorry bout that. Now, let's hear about this math lesson, thingy.

I am a huge fan of the 45 70. The Guide gun is my GO TO gun for big game when hunting in an area where the shots ate likley to be at 100 yards or less.

I have killed black bears, many deer and moose with it. I would not hessitate to use it against ANY animal in North America.

That being said I am also logical and not a blind fan of the gun and cartrige combonation.

I would hunt buff, lion and certainly leopard with it. I would NEVER go after an ele with it.

And as much as I love the gun I can't think of why I wouldn't rather use either my 375 H&H or 458 win on anything that is big and hunts back in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

It has certainly been around long enough to at least be considered by PHs as a DG caliber, but they oddly choose other calibers. Again, why is that? I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I just don't see PHs carrying Guideguns and again must ask: Why is that?

If I offend, I apologize in advance........or not.......

As a belted magnum fan, I'd say it's because it's a dodgy choice and there are better options as well as the fact that in the land of DG, outside of AK, the ammo isn't readily available nor rifles chambered for it.

If you want to put a .45 hole in something dangerous I think you should think about what rifle you pick a Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by tom`:
If you want to put a .45 hole in something dangerous I think you should think about what rifle you pick a Lott.

tom -- that is why I have a .450 Ackley!

Thinking a double rifle in .458 Lott, with a nice heavy cast bullet, at a moderate velocity would be some awful fun plinking.