The demo page is here:

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=842

More at:

www.ammoguide.com


Now 20 Loads Available: 12.7x68mm Magnum/49-10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Make & Wt.(grains) ... Powder Type
Charge (grains)
COL/"OAL" (inches)
Muzzle Vel.(fps)
K. E.(ft-lbs)
Barrel Length (inches)
..............................
NOTES:
F - Full case
C - Compressed powder charge

There are no Maximum loads indicated here,
because they are all estimated to be below 63,0000 psi, and we could go to 68,000 psi.
Brass-banded CEB bullets have lower start pressures and greater lubricity
than the fully bearing solid copper and gilding metal cup&core bullets shown here.
Full case and mildly compressed charges work well with the brass-banded bullets,
as well as the copper-banded MTH,
and allow better velocity than "conventional" bullets.
This more than compensates for the small case capacity loss due to longer length with brass versus copper.
NonCons and such are cool.
Velocities are 5 yards from muzzle.
Brass: Lapua brand (civilian) .338 Lapua Magnum FL-sized after fire forming
Primer: Federal brand F-215
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. 300 g Hornady FTX ... Accurate AA-5744
77.0 g
3.250"
2484 fps
4112 ft-lbs
24.0"

2. 300 g Hornady FTX ... Hodgdon H-4198
101.0 g C
3.250"
3052 fps
6208 ft-lbs
24.0"

3. 350 g CEB ESP-HP ... Hodgdon H-322
98.0 g F
3.240"
2810 fps
6139 ft-lbs
24.0"

4. 350 g CEB ESP-HP ... Hodgdon H-4198
95.0 g C
3.240"
2905 fps
6561 ft-lbs
24.0"

5. 350 g CEB ESP-HP ... Hodgdon H-322
104.0 g C
3.240"
2912 fps
6593 ft-lbs
24.0"

6. 360 g CEB ESP-RAPTOR ... Hodgdon H-4198
95.0 g F
3.602"
2903 fps
6739 ft-lbs
24.0"

7. 375 g Barnes XFB ... Hodgdon H-322
97.0 g C
3.303"
2705 fps
6095 ft-lbs
24.0"

8. 400 g CEB ESP-HP ... Hodgdon H-4198
89.0 g F
3.236"
2699 fps
6473 ft-lbs
24.0"

9. 400 g CEB ESP-HP ... Hodgdon H-322
97.0 g C
3.236"
2709 fps
6521 ft-lbs
24.0"

10. 411 g CEB ESP-RAPTOR ... Hodgdon H-4198
86.0 g
3.510"
2621 fps
6272 ft-lbs
24.0"

11. 430 g CEB MTH ... Hodgdon H-322
100.0 g F
3.583"
2651 fps
6713 ft-lbs
24.0"

12. 460 g CEB DGBR-HP ... Hodgdon H-322
91.0 g C
3.375"
2462 fps
6194 ft-lbs
24.0"

13. 460 g CEB DGBR-HP ... Hodgdon H-322
94.0 g C
3.375"
2522 fps
6499 ft-lbs
24.0"

14. 500 g Hornady JFP ... Accurate AA-5744
66.0 g
3.135"
1992 fps
4407 ft-lbs
24.0"

15. 500 g Hornady JFP ... Accurate AA-5744
73.0 g
3.135"
2139 fps
5082 ft-lbs
24.0"

16. 500 g CEB DGBR-FN ... Alliant/Herc Reloder-17
110.0 g C
3.520"
2380 fps
6291 ft-lbs
24.0"

17. 500 g CEB DGBR-FN ... Hodgdon Benchmark
94.0 g
3.520"
2381 fps
6297 ft-lbs
24.0"

18. 500 g CEB DGBR-FN ... Hodgdon Benchmark
97.0 g
3.520"
2473 fps
6793 ft-lbs
24.0"

19. 500 g CEB DGBR-FN ... Alliant/Herc Reloder-15
105.0 g C
3.520"
2499 fps
6936 ft-lbs
24.0"

20. 500 g CEB DGBR-FN ... Hodgdon Benchmark
100.0 g F
3.520"
2533 fps
7126 ft-lbs
24.0"

21. 500 g CEB DGBR-FN ... Hodgdon H-322
98.0 g F
3.520"
2561 fps
7285 ft-lbs
24.0"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet makes and weights in the below picture top to bottom:

460-grain CEB DGBR-HP "NonCon" (Replaced by new 450-grainer with larger HP, same load data should apply.)
430-grain CEB MTH "Match Tactical Hunting"
360-grain CEB ESP-RAPTOR
375-grain Barnes XFB



I don't have a picture of the new DGBR-HP 450-grainer, but it would look similar to this lighter one now available,
though it would be a bit longer:



The 500-grain Hornady JFP compared to the 360-grain CEB ESP-RAPTOR:



300-grain Hornady FTX on the left below:



Left to right below, 360-grain CEB ESP-RAPTOR and 375-grain Barnes XFB:



The 500-grain CEB DGBR-FN solid, with old "Nitro Express" banding (4 bands equidistant spacing) has been revamped to "3 + 1" banding,
so will need load adjustment for that. There are also 375, 405, 500, and 550-grain .500-cal solids now, from CEB:



The wonderful case-to-bullet relationship of the 430-grain CEB MTH "Match Tactical Hunting":

Very nice RIP! Is 'Tornado' going to stay in the title?

Hi Jim,
I made the list above more "readable" and added the Cartridge Overall Lengths and some comments and pictures of bullets/ammo.

I forgot to ask Mike Haas at Ammoguide to remove the "Tornado" from the name (Support message subsequently sent to Ammoguide).
Since Waffen Jung owns trademark to "Tornado" as applied to "weapons," will change the listing from

"12.7x68mm Magnum Tornado"
to
"12.7x68mm Magnum/49-10"

Since Waffen Jung made the German Air Force pay to use the name "Tornado" for one of their weapon systems, I want no part of it.

In the beginning it was called the "500 XXX" and that is still the name the Manson reamer goes by.

WE BAND OF FORTY-NINE-TENNERS

Hi RIP,

That's great information you've put together, definately will save me some time after the rifle arrives.

Thanks,

Jim,
Welcome.
We need to add some North Fork loads to the list, eh?

North Fork .500-cal/450-grainers:
Cup Point Universal bullet (copper)... second from right, below
Flat Point Solid bullet (copper)... second from left below
Maybe the FP will get a BBW#13 nose profile? I think that would be better.
On the far right below is the North Fork .500-cal/375-grain Cup Point, which also has a same-weight FP (not shown).



Those will probably shoot close to same short range POI as the long range CEB MTH 430-grainer (copper).
Could be sweet.

We live in interesting times, thanks to Michael McCourry's .500-cal/49-bore wildcatting with the bullets of CEB and North Fork.
And with all the other bullets for .500 S&W from Hornady, Barnes, Sierra, Speer, etc.,
from 300 to 500 grains,
all plinking and "small game" needs are covered.

There has been a great flip-flop.
The .500-caliber is now more versatile than the .510-caliber.
The ability to shoot .510-caliber milsurp bullets in a sporter is nice, but not very useful for the hunter.

WE BAND OF FORTY-NINE-TENNERS: THE THREE MUSKETEERS

I wasn't aware of the development of the 500 Lapua. What is its intention, as a Dangerous Game caliber? Long-range sniper ala 50 BMG?

Biebs,
You ain't been paying attention here for the last two years, eh?

The 12.7x68mm Magnum
aka
49-Bore/.500-Caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010
short name:
"49-10"
is a hunting rifle chambering.

It is good for all game, from rat to elephant,
the latter with 500-grain Brass FN solid from CEB (DGBR):
Loads numbered 15-19 above.

It is an excellent plains game rifle and long range target rifle with the proper bullet.
The CEB 360-grain ESP-Raptor and CEB 430-grain MTH (Match Tactical Hunting) bullets come to mind.

It makes up into a handy 9.0 to 9.5 pound dry-weight rifle using using one of these actions:

M98 Mauser standard-length
M70 Winchester standard-length (LA)
or
550 Magnum CZ or ZKK-602 BRNO, etc.

Where ya been?


WE BAND OF FORTY-NINE-TENNERS: THE THREE MUSKETEERS

Guess I missed this one. I've got a couple appropriate Winchester Classic Model 70 Stainless rifles in the Classifieds if anyone wants to do a conversion.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Guess I missed this one. I've got a couple appropriate Winchester Classic Model 70 Stainless rifles in the Classifieds if anyone wants to do a conversion.

Very nice Biebs, they'd make the perfect donor rifles for a 12.7x68 Magnum build.

Experimenting with COL using North Fork and CEB bullets to fit in a Mauser With Duane Wiebe bottom metal for 500 Jeffery.
The length of the box was 3.501" internally:



That FN Mauser is instead going to become something else.

But here are the working rifles in 49-10 chambering, M70 Winchester on top and BRNO ZKK 602 below:




FORTY-NINER-TEN THREE MUSKETEERS

RIP I guess it didn't click with the other two threads...took creating the AmmoGuide data to make the cartridge 'real'.

Nice addition with the NF data. Now that's Dan's back perhaps he'll have a chance to check out the BC issues regarding the 360ge Talon tipped ESP Raptor and the 430gr MTH. I'll get the ballistics program stuff posted later today so he'll have something to look at.

Jim,
From my shooting it seems the MTH has a higher BC than the Raptor.
I think this is like "The Emperor (you) has no clothes!"

IF:

430-grain MTH is starting off at 2651 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is +3 inches (high) at 100 yards, and -5 inches (low) at 300 yards, with 1.5" rifle sight height ...

AND:

360-grain RAPTOR is starting off at 2903 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is only +0.50" at 100 yards, and -13.5" (low) at 300 yards, with 1.7" rifle sight height ...

Yes that is pretty close to to making it +3" (high) at 100 yards and -4" (low) at 300 yards for the Raptor, if so sighted, thus 1 inch flatter for the Raptor at 300 yards.

But the Raptor starts off with over 250 fps advantage over the MTH.
It loses velocity faster.
It has a lower BC.

The Emperor has no clothes!

No, I am not going to be able to set up chronographs at 5 yards and 300 yards anytime soon.
But didn't Doc M say that his approximately 50-yard chronograph spread for the 360-grain Raptor indicated about .260 BC?

Sub 0.3 BC for the Raptor.
The not so amazing thing is that BC seems to be plus 0.4 for the MTH.



FORTY-NINER-TENNERS: THE THREE MUSKETEERS

RIP,

quote:

360-grain RAPTOR is starting off at 2903 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is only +0.50" at 100 yards, and -13.5" (low) at 300 yards, with 1.7" rifle sight height ...

This is perhaps where we’re diverging in our computations…. Your target says the POA was 13.5” above the “little green labeled bullseye” but your mid-POI for the three shots was approximately 4.25” above and 2" to the right of that “little green labeled bullseye”. I read that to mean that the midpoint POI was 9.25” below your POA.

quote:

Am I misreading your target information (the little green labeled bullseye) or did you mislabel your target?

I was using 360-grain RAPTOR is starting off at 2903 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is only +0.50" at 100 yards, and -9.25" (low) at 300 yards, with 1.5" rifle sight height ... I'll immediately change the rifle sight height but will await your verification of which POI data is correct...the -9.25" or the -13.5"...

Let me know which is correct and I'll re-run the data.

Jim,
Forget whatever you misunderstood.
Both bullets were shot at a 300-yard target board with two paper targets stapled to it,
one directly above the other.
Aim was taken at the top target.
The Raptor was landing on the target below the one it was aimed at, at 300 yards.
The MTH was hitting the target it was aimed at, at 300 yards.
The scanned target excerpt you copied above (RAPTOR) was taken from the lower target on this board:
(Two extraneous shots outside of the 3-shot group were from me playing with Tennessee Elevation after the 3-shot group.)





Nothing is mislabeled: POA was 13.5" above POI, therefore, POI was 13.5" below POA at 300 yards.
POA = Point Of Aim
POI = Point Of Impact
Just some confusion, on your part, I guess.
Though you are The King of Ballistic Computations, garbage in, garbage out.
Ignore windage.
Just work with elevations, please.

Please start over with this so we can get some clothes on you!:

************************************************************************************************************************************************
IF:

430-grain MTH is starting off at 2651 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is +3 inches (high) at 100 yards, and -5 inches (low) at 300 yards, with 1.5" rifle sight height ...

AND:

360-grain RAPTOR is starting off at 2903 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is only +0.50" (high) at 100 yards, and -13.5" (low) at 300 yards, with 1.7" rifle sight height ...
************************************************************************************************************************************************
Your computational abilities are greater than mine.
Your reconsideration of this problem, with the proper numbers going in, would be greatly appreciated.



FORTY-NINER-TENNERS: THE THREE MUSKETEERS

Ok… I understand perfectly now. I’ll re-run the data.

While I’m doing that perhaps you could put this on the schedule for re-annotating with the correct POA data…

I compute it to be…..ummmm….approximately 17.75” rather than the 13.5” annotated.

Those of us with a touch of OCD appreciate it!

Ah ha!
That is what caused the confusion.
My mistake.
I'll do 50 pushups for that infraction!!!
So sorry!!!

It was a hasty note at the range, that I later forgot about, and started writing elsewhere above it.
If I could correct that, then it should say:

"300 yard POA 13-1/2" above this POI."
or as you say,
the lower bullseye is about 17.75" below the upper bullseye.
If you are OCD, then I am dyslexic, dysgraphic, or just stupid sometimes.

I never paid any attention to that: Must be ADD for my diagnosis.
Thanks for catching that.
Just ignore it and read the rest of the target, please.

Now I will get down and give you 50 ...

This is still what I meant to say:
************************************************************************************************************************************************
IF:

430-grain MTH is starting off at 2651 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is +3 inches (high) at 100 yards, and -5 inches (low) at 300 yards, with 1.5" rifle sight height ...

AND:

360-grain RAPTOR is starting off at 2903 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is only +0.50" (high) at 100 yards, and -13.5" (low) at 300 yards, with 1.7" rifle sight height ...
************************************************************************************************************************************************

... What are the approximate BC numbers of the two bullets, please?


FORTY-NINER-TENNERS: THE THREE MUSKETEERS

Ta-da…
*********************************************************************************************************************
430-grain MTH is starting off at 2651 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is +3 inches (high) at 100 yards, and -5 inches (low) at 300 yards, with 1.5" rifle sight height ...
Software matched with the above data points indicates the following data:
Chrono 2651 fps @ 5yds = 2666 fps MV
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-1 bullet drag profile = 0.563 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-5 bullet drag profile = 0.345 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-7 bullet drag profile = 0.273 BC

AND:

360-grain RAPTOR is starting off at 2903 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle, is only +0.50" (high) at 100 yards, and -13.5" (low) at 300 yards, with 1.7" rifle sight height ...
Software matched with the above data points indicates the following data:
Chrono 2903 fps @ 5yds = 2917 fps MV
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-1 bullet drag profile = 0.217 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-5 bullet drag profile = 0.137 BC
JBM – Ballistic for iPad – G-7 bullet drag profile = 0.109 BC
*********************************************************************************************************************

Thank you Sir.
Maybe my imprecise shooting has skewed both BC's.
G1 for MTH too high, G1 for Raptor too low.
At least they make some sense.
I need to shoot both bullets again.
Gotta be reproducible.
Next time both loads set for +3" at 100 yards.
Maybe both the MTH and the Raptor will land on the target they are aimed at.


FORTY-NINER-TENNERS: THE THREE MUSKETEERS

RIP,

If the Raptors BCs are correct, +3.0 at 100yds should put you right at -6.0" at 300yds.

Try to have no flyers next time around and perhaps we can narrow the BCs even further.

That's good, Jim.
With a target that is about 18" tall with a 12" diameter orange center, and a 1" green bullseye,
I should be able to get each bullet type hitting the target I am aiming at,
at 300 yards.

430-grain MTH at +2650 fps MV
360-grain ESP-RAPTOR at +2900 fps MV

One piece of paper for each bullet at 300 yards.
I will keep the marking on paper simple like this one for the 430-grain MTH:



But, of course, if the wind is like this:


(I had two pieces of rebar stabbed into the dirt and pressing into the back of the cardboard to keep it from flopping in the wind.)

I will put up 2 targets side-by-side horizontally, and shoot into the wind, and see which target the bullets hit: Kentucky Windage

I will have a 100-yard 3-shot group for each bullet showing +3.0", then the 300-yard 3-shot group.
My ADD makes it tough to concentrate for more than 3 shots.

Both rifles have Leupold VX-III 2.5x-8x scopes pre-zeroed.
Rifle No. 1 (Win M70) for the MTH.
Rifle No. 2 (BRNO) for the ESP-Raptor.
It will be even more fun next time around.


Fort-Niner-Tenners: Three Musketeers

Now that's a nice breeze you have going on there!

Hey RIP,

Quick question for you...

Please re-read the second line (red text) of my 11 June 2012 08:12 post. That MV for each bullet is what is indicated by my iPad ballistics program will the data points you specified. I know your chronograph should have come with a 'conversion' method to compute the MV based upon the chrono reading and it's distance from the muzzle.

With this in mind, are the MVs that I listed for your chrono readings @ 5yds correct? If not what should they be?

Reason I ask is if my MVs are off it will change the SD required to match your data points under G1, G5, and G7.

Thanks,

Jim,
You got it right.
I reported 5 yard fps. No conversion to MV by me.
You can relax now. I will not give you garbage to compute with next time.
Will get out the Oehler and get a velocity for each shot at 100 and 300 yards.
Those velocities will also likely be at 5 yards.

RIP,

That sounds good... I'll work with your data points and let the program tell us what the projected MV was.

It is done, there is no more "Tornado" in the name of this cartridge at: http://ammoguide.com/?catid=842

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
It is done, there is no more "Tornado" in the name of this cartridge at: http://ammoguide.com/?catid=842

Awesome.

The twentieth load added now falls at position 15 in the list at Ammo Guide.

15. 500 g Hornady JFP ... Accurate AA-5744
73.0 g
3.135"
2139 fps (at 5 yards)
5082 ft-lbs
24.0"

That should be a bit over 2150 fps at the muzzle.

Might be useful for game at about 2150 fps MV, if it slows down enough before impact.
It is a good training load for offhand plinking at traditional "medium" Nitro Express whomp.

Jim,
I will add a third bullet for 100 and 300 yards trajectory measurements, as a sort of control,
another 500 S&W bullet, the 375-grain Barnes XPB FB.

The 49-10 with 24" barrel is 1000 fps faster with this bullet than a 500 S&W "pistol" with 10" barrel.
The Barnes website says the BC of that one is .261 and I can get it up to 2705 fps at 5 yard velocity.

If the Barnes XPB FB of 375-grain weight has a BC of .261 (G1 for a flat base, I assume),
surely the CEB Raptor of 360-grain weight should be a little better.
Of course some new "nongarbage" targets are needed to check this out.
Visual comparison:

Hey RIP,

The Raptor is perplexing to say the least. In trying to solve that perplexity I’ve initiated email contact with Dan and have forwarded all relating data to him to see if he can replicate my findings or identify the correct BC. Here’s an excerpt from our correspondence:

quote:

I am impressed with those MTH bullets. I believe we were hoping for .50 or slightly better so we well exceeded that. On those particular bullets I would use the G1 model and it should be very accurate. Something has to be wrong with the Raptor data or the bullet itself if you are shooting them tipped. I don't think it is possible for them to be that low using the G1 model. Call me and give me some details on how you guys are doing the testing.

The G5 model definitely seems to be closer with the Raptor bullets. We have been getting data shooting through two chronographs at 250, 600, and sometimes at 850 yards when possible and the Raptor bullets lose velocity much quicker than what the G1 model says they do. For bullets like the .500 360gr Raptors doing BC calculations at 300 yards should be plenty far enough to get accurate velocity estimations out to 600 yards using the G5 model but would only trust the G1 model to give you accurate remaining velocity to 400 yards.

I’ve provided Dan with each rifles scope height, the atmospherics for day of your shoot, and your chronograph and target trajectories for the 430gr MTH and 360gr ESP Raptor. I’ll give him a chance to look things over and then phone him Friday morning to follow up unless he resolves things first.

Something that I haven’t discussed with Dan yet…but perhaps an answer to the BC problem…is that perhaps the ESP Raptor due to its overall characters; i.e., overall length, long BT, even longer nose with Talon Tip, and it’s very low weight for its length will require a ‘Variable BC’ listing for accurate trajectory calculations. Here’s a couple of examples of Variable BC bullets:
Manufacturer: Sierra
.308 caliber 135gr HPBT MK
0.390 BC – Min. Velocity = 3250 – Max Velocity = -
0.370 BC – Min. Velocity = 1900 – Max Velocity = 3250
0.345 BC – Min. Velocity = 1500 – Max Velocity = 1900
0.300 BC – Min. Velocity = 0 – Max Velocity = 1500
.308 caliber 150gr SBT
0.380 BC – Min. Velocity = 2600 – Max Velocity = -
0.368 BC – Min. Velocity = 1800 – Max Velocity = 2600
0.360 BC – Min. Velocity = 0 – Max Velocity = 1800

I’ll bring this up to Dan and see what he thinks about it.

But to answer your question… Give me the rifle used, the atmospherics, the chrono reading, and the 100yd and 300yd target readings and we’ll see what the JBM Ballistics iPad program can come up with.

Ok...just received BC data from Dan...until we have a reshoot of both bullets so we can aggregate the data we'll go with the following:

360gr .500 ESP W350 Raptor w/W Talon Tip installed = 0.222 G1 BC
430gr .500 MTH = 0.600 G1 BC

Note...Dan believes the Raptor should be closer to 0.400 G1 BC - recommends further testing!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Ok...just received BC data from Dan...until we have a reshoot of both bullets so we can aggregate the data we'll go with the following:

360gr .500 ESP W350 Raptor w/W Talon Tip installed = 0.222 G1 BC
430gr .500 MTH = 0.600 G1 BC

Note...Dan believes the Raptor should be closer to 0.400 G1 BC - recommends further testing!

I can't believe that the Raptor is only .222 G1 BC.
and the .600 BC of the MTH seems high.
but please keep the recipe available.
We could use some .500-.600 BC reliably penetrating bullets in .510" too.

Further testing should bring some stability and a sleek Raptor. Dan is committed to good bullets and good BCs.

Hey Tan,

I think we all agree that the Raptor numbers just don’t make sense. Dan is well aware of the BC issues with the Raptor…here’s an excerpt from some of my recent correspondence with him:

quote:

The Raptors definitely require more of a multiple BC than the MTH bullets do because of the banding and also because they are not designed nearly as aerodynamic as the MTH bullets are. Therefore, the Raptors are a pain in the ass when it comes to long range (over 500 yards) applications. They are the wrong tool for that job.

We have found it very difficult to determine actual BC by using muzzle velocity and drops out to close yardages like 600 yards. If you are off even ¼” on the 100 yard zero you get bad numbers.

When we initially tested the ESP C130 .308 130gr Raptors for BC we used a 100 yard zero and measured the drop in inches, which was 66”, at 600 yards to determine the BC and came up with .36 on several different occasions. When we did the testing shooting through two chronographs spaced 600 yards apart, the BC came up to .273. If you would use the .273 BC to determine how far to hold over or how many MOA’s to adjust your scope you would miss what you are shooting at by 14” at 600 yards. The actual drop at 600 yards was 66” but a ballistic program would tell you the drop is 80” if using the actual .273 BC measured at that distance. That is due to exactly what you mentioned, multiple BC. The Raptor bullets have a much higher BC at high velocity but shed BC quickly.

These critters, while working extremely well terminal performance wise, are going to be very time consuming to identify the exact breakpoints for BC calculations.

Anyone know where we can get free access to a 1000yd enclosed range with zero cross wind conditions AND configured with a Doppler radar to give us continuous fps readings from muzzle through maximum target range?

While I am happy with the precision of multiple BCs I have a hard time thinking that that will account for the discrepancies. BC's often change .010 or even .050 points, but not .150.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
While I am happy with the precision of multiple BCs I have a hard time thinking that that will account for the discrepancies. BC's often change .10 or even .50 points, but not .150.

This is true. We just need RIP to have decent weather conditions so that perhaps he can shoot 2 or 3 3-shot 100yd and 300yd targets so that we can at least nail down the 300yd trajectory for the tipped Raptor. I guess we could really push him and ask him to also do another 2 to 3 3-shot 200yd and 400yd targets.

And then as Dan also mentions - forget about what we think the BC should be - we'd just use wwhatever progran BC that would match RIP's compiled group average trajectory. Thay would keep us in the kill zone though we might be a few tenths of an inch off here and there. Just have to talk RIP into doing the extra target work.

Garbage in, garbage out.

I definitely need to shoot more data.
Show that it is repeatable.

I was just overjoyed to find such good loads
on the first stab with the CEB bullets
and a few plinkers.
Definitely not ready for publication.
However, wherever we end up with these BC numbers,
I am sure it will be good enough with the CEB bullets.

This is a BIG GAME hunting rifle, for ranges from zero to 300 yards, as appropriate for the situation, for any game, with the right bullet.
Ballistic coefficient does not matter.
Just find out where your rifle shoots over that distance and make note of it.
I will repeat the exercise until I am fairly sure of my notes.

RIP,

Thanks for the dose of reality... Yes the 12.7x68 Magnum (49-10) most definately is a hunting rifle cartridge. What you've demonstrated is that it is a very accurate hunting rifle cartridge - at least from your rifle - along with your ability to accurately a shoulder fired 50 caliber BB at long range!

Yes, mucking around with computing BC's for bullets is distracting from the thread because knowing where the bullet will impact at 100yds and again at 300yds pretty well fills the blanks that need to be filled for a successful hunt and a clean kill.

Sorry for the distraction.

i don't have access to 300 yards very often, so the BC provides help.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
i don't have access to 300 yards very often, so the BC provides help.

Tan,

I'll still run the BCs for RIP's target work.

I guess what we'll have to remember is that regardless of what the BCs program reports the bullet to be...is that that BC will allow the trajectory/imapct points be repeatable within 0.15" at 100yds and 300yds regardless of the ballistics program that is used... But best yet the BCs will match actual shot targets rather than being theoretical 'what ifs' initially generated by a computer program... This is especially true with regards to the ESP Raptor which is a bear to nail down!

Also, if your ballistics program accepts the G5 Drag Model, as well as G1, I'll provide that number in addition to the G1. Dan says it'll provide more reliable number at 400yds and beyond than will G1 for the Raptors though G1 will be Raptor fine through 300yds. The MTH will be accurate under G1 and G5...

I almost forgot...once you replicate these BC numbers in your ballistics program then you'll be able to more accurate run your weather condition variables for your drop and drift computations... Otherwise the BCs are meaningless...meaningless in the sense that you already know the bullet impact points under the weather conditions at the velocity they were fired.

Jim,

I use JBMballistics online, so it's similar and yes it allows for G5.

While I do play with weather and generate scenarios on 25-yd intervals out to 600 yards, I really only look at stuff up to 400 yards and I find that humidity and altitude and temperature do not make a big difference out to 400 yards, usually not more than an 1" or maybe 2". But I do generate different tables for 1000 ft, 4000, and for 7000 ft.

Jim,
It is now unofficial, as suggested by Doc M, we may call it the "500 RIPPER" as the official metric/Springfield designation does not have enough macho appeal.

We need to get your rifle shooting.
Then you will spend less time calculating ballistic coefficients,
and more time verifying repeatability of drop data.
Michael in Germany makes the third musketeer.