The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Double rifle vs. Magazine capacityGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| <500 AHR> |
The double is OK because you should kill whatever you're shooting at with the right barrel. The left barrel is OH SH*T barrel and is only need for emergencies. Bolt action just need more OH SH*T shots than a double. A double rifle by the way is a push feed type action. For the record I only hunt with CRF bolt actions and double rifles. I cannot remember ever needing to reload a double or empty a magazine rifle. Todd E | ||
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| <jagtip> |
I really appreciate your response but it doesn't address the focus of my question.Shooter#A thinks the double rifle is great...Shooter#A also critisizes the bolt rifle with a low mag capacity as not having enough shots in reserve.It seems as though the second shot speed may be the ultimate answer. | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
Jagtip, If you are shooting a BIG double your return to target time will most likely not be much better than if you are shooting a bolt action. I can work the action on one of my bolt guns and get it back on target within two seconds (except a hot load in the 500 which takes a bit longer). If you are shooting a lighter double (say 375 flanged) you can put two shots into something very quickly indeed. In this case you would get the second shot off quicker with the double than a bolt gun. I think that what you are up against in the argument your asking about is that some people just want a double rifle because of the romance of it I guess. I do not know of many people in the US or even Africa who hunt routinely with double anymore (most likely because of the expense). I guess what I am trying to say is that since the double is what the english used for elephant hunting back in the old days it is OK just because. There is no basis in actual field usage that will allow the doubles two shots to be the same as or better than the magazine rifle with 4 round capacity. Except in the case were you only have time for two shots. Todd E | ||
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one of us |
jagtip, it does seem to be a contradiction, on the surface. The fact is, however, The bolt rifle is harder to reload the magazine than to reload a double rifle. In a tight charge, of under 50 yds by a lion a man with a double will get off too "AIMED" ahots, and the man with a bolt will get of one shot period. He will never close the bolt in time. You see a lion can cross 100 yds from a standing start in under four seconds. Cut that in half and you are not going to get more than one shot with a bolt. In this type sittuation, the double rifle is head, and shoulders above any bolt rifle, regardless of capacity. With that out of the way, the reason a bolt rifle needs a larger capacity for general hunting is, that it takes so long to reload the magazine, once empty. Though even on a Buffalo at some distance, the double will put two into him before he gets into the jesse, when the bolt may not, but in the open, the buffalo will be hit twice in rappid sucession, and the bolt though slower for the first two, will be about equal for the third shot, and slower again for the fourth shot, even with extra capacity. Three shots has unloaded most buffalo class bolt rifles , as most only hold three. So, what do we have here? With the bolt you fire one, while the double is fireing two, your second shot will be while the double man is reloading, and your bolt rifle, the third shot will be about the same time as the third for the double rifle, which still has one more shot, without reloading, and your bolt is dry, UNLESS you have extra capacity in that As to the recovering from recoil, and getting back on target, the double rifle is far faster than a bolt rifle. With the bolt rifle you have the added burden of haveing to work a bolt between each shot, and takeing you hand off the grip, on top of recovering from recoil. With a double you simply recover from recoil, and fire the other barrel. On the comment about the double rifle being a push feed,I disagree, it is a gravity feed! you don't have to push cartridges into a double rifle they fall in, two at a time!
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| one of us |
It depends on your situation..if a lion or Buff is 10 feet and closing when you fire that shot and doesn't go down, your toast with a bolt gun.. It HAS happened many times in African history.....with a double you will likely kill the animal off the barrel and that has happened many times to hunters of dangerous game, including yours truly, and to a close friend just recently... I prefer a double for dangerous game under most conditions..I also like to have a scoped big bolt gun handy for other situations such as a longish shot or the off chance a big Kudu shows up a 200 yds.... This said does not mean I would feel obligated to stay home rather than hunt dangerous game with a 404 or 416 bolt action..I would and I have...Lifes a bitch, then you die.. Bottom line: In a charge, your 100% better off with a big double..otherwise is makes little difference. ------------------ | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
Mac & Ray, I agree with you guys both. As usual your posts are much better worded than are mine. I still think that with a heavy recoiling double vs a heavy recoiling bolt gun I can get a second aimed shot off in the same time. It does take considerable practive with the bolt action though. In close quarters with dangerous game I will always prefer my double. This is because it is like the new automatic cameras, all you have to do is point and fire. Todd E | ||
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| <jagtip> |
Too bad I can't afford one.....Sigh! | ||
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| <500 AHR> |
Jagtip, Cabela's sells Davide Pedersoli doubles for $2300.00 in both 9.3X74R and 45-70 Gov. Mac says he bought one in 45-70 Gov and had it rechambered to 458 RCBS. I have one in 9.3X74R and it is a real shooter and an excellent deal. They are hammer guns however. Not quite 470 NE but they are 1/4 the price and make excellent North American woods rifles. Todd E | ||
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| one of us |
Todd, you're absolutely right in your accessment of practice betters the use of any rifle, and I too hunt Buffalo with bolt rifles on some occasions,but with all things being equal, one who hunts Dangerous game on a regular basis, is going to be as practiced as is possible, whether he uses a double or bolt. With all things being equal, the double is faster than a bolt for the first two AIMED shots. By the third shot a good man, with a bolt, will catch up, but the time he lost between the first, and second shot may negate the need for a third. Nobody would be arrogant enough to suggest that a man with a good bolt rifle, of adequate chambering, is unarmed in a close encounter. In my experience with both bolt, and doubles, NOTHING except a two shot automatic, is faster for the first two "AIMED" shots, than a double. The auto isn't an option in Africa, because of the law, and the auto is not as reliable as the bolt, or the double. The origenal question, however, was, why do people who shoot doubles decry a bolt gun that has only two or three rounds? And my answer to that is a bolt gun NEEDS more rounds to EQUAL a double rifle for four shots. As I said before a good bolt man will be slower for the second shot, but will catch up for the third,while the double is reloaded, but if the bolt gun doesn't have extra capacity, after the third shot he is dry, and the double still has one more shot. To me this is the reason nearly all good bolt rifles used in Africa for dangerous game have a drop box magazine, for a fourth round! My 375 H&H rifles both hold three in the magazine, but the top round in the magazine can be pushed down enough to allow a fourth round to be loaded into the chamber, for four rounds,total, makeing it almost as fast as my doubles for four rounds,but not quite! And because of this, it is my opinion the bolt rifle NEEDS extra capacity. I don't cosider that opinion, a contradiction! ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I believe I can fire a double fast enough that it sounds like one shot and still be accurate enough or so I've been told...but I do use a 450-400 and its recoil is decidedly less than most double calibers. Noone with a bolt gun is going to get that 2nd shot off nearly as quick as I will with a double, just can't happen... ------------------ | |||
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one of us |
Hence the preferability for the bolt gun with a 4+1 loading, like my .450 Rigby. With lots of practice I could possibly catch up with the double shooter on the fourth shot and still have one more. The circumstances where such madness would be necessary chill the blood, so the real idea is to put the first one in the right place as often as possible . . and hunt with a friend. This is an often overlooked advantage to the 2x1 hunt. There's another heavy behind you besides the PH!  Sarge | |||
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| one of us |
quote: This is a perfect example of what should be done when possible, where dangerous game is involved. It is still makes a differece if these three people are useing bolt guns or doubles. EXAMPLE: the charge sequince from IN THE JAWS OF SIMBA. There were two PHs, and one client, all useing bolt rifles, and in a desperately close charge each person got off "ONE" round before the lion took one of the PHs down. If they had all been useing double rifles, all would have gotten off two shots, in the same time. The lion still might not have been stopped, but in a close encounter, I'll take six rounds, in the lion, over three, any day of the week! In this case it made no difference if every one of these rifles had had 16 round magazines, the result would have been the same! ------------------ | |||
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| Moderator |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson: [B]"It depends on your situation..if a lion or Buff is 10 feet and closing when you fire that shot and doesn't go down, your toast with a bolt gun.." This point has always been the prime factor, in my view, being both the most demonstrative as well as the most defendable. It is also the reason I say to the bolt user do not wait for the buff to close if you can possibly get a decent shot in prior to the shot Ray is speaking of. The very American tendency to "admire the shot" can cost you dearly hunting dangerous game. | |||
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| <Hubie> |
quote: I don't know if it's an "American" tendency, but have not only noticed it, been guilty of it myself! Not with DG, but it's quite irritating to knock the whitetail down with the first shot, and then he's up and disappeared into the scrub, while you're standing there "admiring" the view-with an unloaded rifle.. | ||
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| <jagtip> |
Gentlemen....I really appreciate the time and effort you took in responding and I indeed learned a few things.many thanks...jagtip | ||
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| one of us |
Nick and Hubie, ABSOLUTLY the biggest mistake made on Safari is shot admiration.... Mac, All my DG PH's carry doubles, every single one of them.... ------------------ | |||
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| Moderator |
Hubie, Good for you. No one wants to admit it but "admiring the shot" happens quite often. I am very aware of it, yet I still catch myself at it 50% of the time. The "PH's" sometimes allude to it as an "American" thing, as we seem to be guilty of it most often. Ironically, it may have evolved because so many Americans are such proficient riflemen, arriving at the point where we EXPECT the game we shoot to drop pronto. Such has happened to us so many times that we feel we can just "relax and enjoy the show", after squeezing off. This makes us look real bad sometimes and it's our own doing. With all this, I must confess that I have found it to be one of the most difficult habits to shake that I've ever experienced... and the use of rifles with heavy recoil only seems to exacerbate the problem. I hope to improve in this area before having to "pay the piper", one day. Like our recoil limitations, this is another area that we must acknowledge, at least inwardly, and try to affect the necessary changes. [This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 09-03-2001).] | |||
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| <333-OKH> |
On the topic---almost. The September American Rifleman has an interesting article on which rifle action is the fastest of them all. Unfortunately the double was not represented, but the rest were. Both speed and accuracy were tested and if their data can be trusted the straight pull bolt is the overall winner. The author ends by saying that this might be one of those mysteries that are best left unsolved. I guess he doesn't hang out here much, else he would know better. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
333, I would argue that all day long...The fastest conventional action is a pump, faster than an automatic and by far faster than a stright pull bolt... the double is definately the fastest of all actions, thats obvious by design alone to any thinking man...Pull the front trigger, then the rear in one movement.... ------------------ | |||
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| <George Hoffman> |
Gentlemen: This argument about bolt/vrs/double has been going on since the bolt action was introduced. I have owned and used both. The double is veery comforting when going in after a wounded animal and you are parting the long grass with the barrels. The ideal situation for a prof hunter, is, to have both. I like the bolt action for general backup work, but going into the really thick bush I would kike to have my double in my hands. So, what am I saying? The double is easily to best under extreme circumstances and the bolt will take of the other 99% of the work. George | ||
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| Moderator |
George, You, Ray and the others are all forgetting about the "Johnny Magumba Rifle", released to the general public for but a few years back in the 1960'. This incredibly versatile and powerful rifle, in tandem with the "Johnny Magumba Pistol", were the most lethal of all hunting weapons, then and now. My good friend and neighbor, also a hunter of things African, managed to restore his long lost "Johnny Magumba" arsenal via "EBAY" auction, just this past week. And a prouder man you have never met. | |||
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| One of Us |
I think a bolt gun has an advantage in a shooting gallery, but at a distance of 10 feet, how could anyone argue that a double is not superior? | |||
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