Bolt action just need more OH SH*T shots than a double. A double rifle by the way is a push feed type action.

For the record I only hunt with CRF bolt actions and double rifles. I cannot remember ever needing to reload a double or empty a magazine rifle.

Todd E

If you are shooting a BIG double your return to target time will most likely not be much better than if you are shooting a bolt action. I can work the action on one of my bolt guns and get it back on target within two seconds (except a hot load in the 500 which takes a bit longer).

If you are shooting a lighter double (say 375 flanged) you can put two shots into something very quickly indeed. In this case you would get the second shot off quicker with the double than a bolt gun.

I think that what you are up against in the argument your asking about is that some people just want a double rifle because of the romance of it I guess. I do not know of many people in the US or even Africa who hunt routinely with double anymore (most likely because of the expense).

I guess what I am trying to say is that since the double is what the english used for elephant hunting back in the old days it is OK just because. There is no basis in actual field usage that will allow the doubles two shots to be the same as or better than the magazine rifle with 4 round capacity. Except in the case were you only have time for two shots.

Todd E

With that out of the way, the reason a bolt rifle needs a larger capacity for general hunting is, that it takes so long to reload the magazine, once empty. Though even on a Buffalo at some distance, the double will put two into him before he gets into the jesse, when the bolt may not, but in the open, the buffalo will be hit twice in rappid sucession, and the bolt though slower for the first two, will be about equal for the third shot, and slower again for the fourth shot, even with extra capacity. Three shots has unloaded most buffalo class bolt rifles , as most only hold three. So, what do we have here? With the bolt you fire one, while the double is fireing two, your second shot will be while the double man is reloading, and your bolt rifle, the third shot will be about the same time as the third for the double rifle, which still has one more shot, without reloading, and your bolt is dry, UNLESS you have extra capacity in that
bolt rifle. The simple fact is the bolt is slow enough to use, and reload, that it needs extra capacity.

As to the recovering from recoil, and getting back on target, the double rifle is far faster than a bolt rifle. With the bolt rifle you have the added burden of haveing to work a bolt between each shot, and takeing you hand off the grip, on top of recovering from recoil. With a double you simply recover from recoil, and fire the other barrel. On the comment about the double rifle being a push feed,I disagree, it is a gravity feed! you don't have to push cartridges into a double rifle they fall in, two at a time! The statement that most people do not hunt, generally, with a double rifle in Africa today, is correct, but that too requires some clarification. The cost of good double rifles is a big factor, and I venture to say that most folks who down grade the double are just reciteing "SOUR GRAPES"in most cases. This depends on what one is hunting, more than anything else other than price. If I am hunting plains game in fairly open country, where there are a lot of lion, or buffalo,then my rifle will likely be an FN 375 H&H. If I'm hunting an area where there are no dangerous game about it will probably be an FN 300 H&H. But if I am hunting in tight thorn, in lion, and buffalo country, I will have a double rifle in my hands every time.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

It HAS happened many times in African history.....with a double you will likely kill the animal off the barrel and that has happened many times to hunters of dangerous game, including yours truly, and to a close friend just recently...

I prefer a double for dangerous game under most conditions..I also like to have a scoped big bolt gun handy for other situations such as a longish shot or the off chance a big Kudu shows up a 200 yds....

This said does not mean I would feel obligated to stay home rather than hunt dangerous game with a 404 or 416 bolt action..I would and I have...Lifes a bitch, then you die..

Bottom line: In a charge, your 100% better off with a big double..otherwise is makes little difference.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I agree with you guys both. As usual your posts are much better worded than are mine. I still think that with a heavy recoiling double vs a heavy recoiling bolt gun I can get a second aimed shot off in the same time. It does take considerable practive with the bolt action though. In close quarters with dangerous game I will always prefer my double. This is because it is like the new automatic cameras, all you have to do is point and fire.

Todd E

Cabela's sells Davide Pedersoli doubles for $2300.00 in both 9.3X74R and 45-70 Gov. Mac says he bought one in 45-70 Gov and had it rechambered to 458 RCBS. I have one in 9.3X74R and it is a real shooter and an excellent deal. They are hammer guns however. Not quite 470 NE but they are 1/4 the price and make excellent North American woods rifles.

Todd E

The origenal question, however, was, why do people who shoot doubles decry a bolt gun that has only two or three rounds? And my answer to that is a bolt gun NEEDS more rounds to EQUAL a double rifle for four shots. As I said before a good bolt man will be slower for the second shot, but will catch up for the third,while the double is reloaded, but if the bolt gun doesn't have extra capacity, after the third shot he is dry, and the double still has one more shot. To me this is the reason nearly all good bolt rifles used in Africa for dangerous game have a drop box magazine, for a fourth round! My 375 H&H rifles both hold three in the magazine, but the top round in the magazine can be pushed down enough to allow a fourth round to be loaded into the chamber, for four rounds,total, makeing it almost as fast as my doubles for four rounds,but not quite! And because of this, it is my opinion the bolt rifle NEEDS extra capacity. I don't cosider that opinion, a contradiction!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Noone with a bolt gun is going to get that 2nd shot off nearly as quick as I will with a double, just can't happen...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Oldsarge:
. This is an often overlooked advantage to the 2x1 hunt. There's another heavy behind you besides the PH!

Sarge

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This is a perfect example of what should be done when possible, where dangerous game is involved. It is still makes a differece if these three people are useing bolt guns or doubles. EXAMPLE: the charge sequince from IN THE JAWS OF SIMBA. There were two PHs, and one client, all useing bolt rifles, and in a desperately close charge each person got off "ONE" round before the lion took one of the PHs down. If they had all been useing double rifles, all would have gotten off two shots, in the same time. The lion still might not have been stopped, but in a close encounter, I'll take six rounds, in the lion, over three, any day of the week! In this case it made no difference if every one of these rifles had had 16 round magazines, the result would have been the same!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

This point has always been the prime factor, in my view, being both the most demonstrative as well as the most defendable. It is also the reason I say to the bolt user do not wait for the buff to close if you can possibly get a decent shot in prior to the shot Ray is speaking of. The very American tendency to "admire the shot" can cost you dearly hunting dangerous game.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nickudu:
[QUOTE]The very American tendency to "admire the shot" can cost you dearly hunting dangerous game.

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I don't know if it's an "American" tendency, but have not only noticed it, been guilty of it myself! Not with DG, but it's quite irritating to knock the whitetail down with the first shot, and then he's up and disappeared into the scrub, while you're standing there "admiring" the view-with an unloaded rifle..

ABSOLUTLY the biggest mistake made on Safari is shot admiration....

Mac,
How right you are and I will stick my neck out and add 6 shots from doubles would have sorted out that fracus without injury...

All my DG PH's carry doubles, every single one of them....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 09-03-2001).]

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If Elmer didn't say it, it probably ain't true.

the double is definately the fastest of all actions, thats obvious by design alone to any thinking man...Pull the front trigger, then the rear in one movement....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com