quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

Lewis is Lewis. He says "most original finish remains throughout", but doesn't bother to mention the obvious replacement barrel. Knowing Lewis, he probably doesn't even know.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400NE,
Can you expound a bit on the clues to and consequences of such an offense?

You know, it looks like the right side of this Weaver base is not even touching the receiver ring.

Could this be some special custom steel base in the Weaver style, and cock-eyed to boot? Extruded aluminum is not that hard to get right.

www.drake.net

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Rip,

Heavens ... even I used QRW rings on my JUNKER. The do look pretty good actually

Mike,
I am holding out for integral QRW on my next square bridge magnum Mauser. Stainless too.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

Lewis is Lewis. He says "most original finish remains throughout", but doesn't bother to mention the obvious replacement barrel. Knowing Lewis, he probably doesn't even know.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400NE,
Can you expound a bit on the clues to and consequences of such an offense?

You know, it looks like the right side of this Weaver base is not even touching the receiver ring.

Could this be some special custom steel base in the Weaver style, and cock-eyed to boot? Extruded aluminum is not that hard to get right.

RIP:

The proof marks make it clear. There are marks present from two different periods. When the British promulgate new Rules of Proof, the marks change, so that the marks from different rules are easily distinguished.

On the receiver ring, at the extreme right of the photo, is the crown over V "View" mark, which signified the Proof Inspector's post-firing inspection or "view". When this gun was originally proved, one "View" mark was applied to the action (seen here) and one to the barrel (on double barrel guns there was one on each barrel, and one on each side of the water table). When the "View" mark was still in use (and when this rifle was originally built), the pressure mark on the barrel for a .375 Rimless Magnum would have been "Cordite 60 - 300 MAX". The "Definitive" proof mark (crown over GP), seen here on the receiver ring, would have been on the barrel, not the action.

Then new rules of proof were promulgated in 1954. After 300 years of use, the "View" mark was determined to be redundant, and was eliminated. The pressure mark was changed to the equivalent BaseCUP in tons ("19 tons"), and the "Definitive" proof mark is now usually placed on the action instead of the barrel.

Notice that the two marks on the receiver ring are stamped in different attitudes. The "View" mark is what remains of the original 1904 or 1925 rule proof marks. The "Definitive" mark on the receiver ring and the marks on the barrel are the later 1954 rule marks stamped after the barrel was replaced. London's date code doesn't appear to be present, so the rifle was rebarreled between 2/1/55 and 12/31/71. This may well have been done by the maker.

Consequences depend on the collectibility of the gun. If this was a well used Game Department .404 Vickers, it wouldn't matter much. For a pre-war, take-down Holland, it definitely hurts value. For a minty Rigby .416, like the one in the other thread (famous, 150 or so units built in the history of the British firm, etc.) a boo boo like that will bite you hard enough to leave a mark.

What amazes me is that so many well known dealers seem to know so little. Caveat emptor.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express,
You have turned this good guffaw into quite an excellent educational experience for me. Thanks.

Aside:

Note that the pressure markings on your fine pieces refer to BaseCUP in long tons, not PSI.

That is kind of bizzare, but so be it.
The British long ton is what, 2240 pounds?

A 19 tons pressure would refer to 42,560 CUP then? Which would be closer to our SAAMI/CIP 63,800 PSI?

Gotta get my units and definitions straight here. Proofmark reading would require some heavy reference work for me, like reference to 400 Nitro "Encyclopedia Brittanica" Express.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
400 Nitro Express,
You have turned this good guffaw into quite an excellent educational experience for me. Thanks.

Aside:

Note that the pressure markings on your fine pieces refer to BaseCUP in long tons, not PSI.

Correct.

quote:

That is kind of bizzare, but so be it.
The British long ton is what, 2240 pounds?

2240

quote:

A 19 tons pressure would refer to 42,560 CUP then? Which would be closer to our SAAMI/CIP 63,800 PSI?

42,560 Base Copper Units of Pressure (thrust measured on the breech face) as opposed to CUP (chamber pressure measured radially). They don't readily convert, because they measure different things. But, yeah, current CIP max average is 62,366 PSI and, IIRC, SAAMI is 62,000 PSI.

quote:

Gotta get my units and definitions straight here. Proofmark reading would require some heavy reference work for me, like reference to 400 Nitro "Encyclopedia Brittanica" Express.

Anytime RIP.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Rich,
The only possible explanation for Sturgis, SD is that it was settled by Kentuckians from Sturgis, KY.

Ah, thanks, breech face CUP versus side chamber PSI in the works too ... Base CUP ... I get it now. CUP sucks!

gduffey,
Take note of how to interpret the pressure markings on your British Mausers.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
400 Nitro Express,
You have turned this good guffaw into quite an excellent educational experience for me. Thanks.

Aside:

Note that the pressure markings on your fine pieces refer to BaseCUP in long tons, not PSI.

That is kind of bizzare, but so be it.
The British long ton is what, 2240 pounds?

A 19 tons pressure would refer to 42,560 CUP then? Which would be closer to our SAAMI/CIP 63,800 PSI?

Gotta get my units and definitions straight here. Proofmark reading would require some heavy reference work for me, like reference to 400 Nitro "Encyclopedia Brittanica" Express.

Given 400Nitros great explanation I would check with Holland & Holland before buying the rifle to see if they did the rebarrel. If the rifle ever passed by Don Shrum the proof marks themselves could be 'added on'.

Wouldn't it be spelled Tonnes?

quote:

Bent Fossdal
Posted Feb 6, 12:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ireload2:
I told you you would be sorry.
It is a magnum Mauser too.




OK, ladies, what are we most disgusted about? The Weaver's or the Buhler? Anybody cares to take a guess which one came originally from the grand H&H?

A, The Weavers
B, The Buehler

Bent

Have you ever seen a Holland & Holland with ill fitting Weaver mounts installed by Holland & Holland? With a factory installed Buhler Safety?

What is the asking price anyway?

Mickey,
I made a call and left my number with Dr. Drake's employee. No price on the web site, as you may see. Just "Price Reduced." I'll keep trying, unless somebody beats me to it.

The scope mounting holes on that front base may be off center, eh?

As you can tell I have a day off from work today. Idle minds are the tools of the devil.

RIP

My problem is I retired and now need something to do until the snow melts.

I worked outside for 30 years and now enjoy sitting by the fire and watching the crappy weather through the window.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The scope mounting holes on that front base may be off center, eh?

I think you may be right. When "gunsmiths" geehaw something nice, they never seem to get it right.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Dr. Drake says the subject rifle was sold over a month ago. He has been making the show circuit, SCI, etc. for the last month and has not updated his site. Sale price is secret. It would be a disservice to the current owner to reveal how much.

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Wouldn't it be spelled Tonnes?

No. The British proof houses always spelled it "tons". The Birmingham Proof House differed here only in that they marked 'tons per (square) " '.

Of course, since 1989, it's now expressed in BAR.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I dunno about that RIP, but my wife was so enthralled by the concept that she bought me a pre-frayed sleeveless denim shirt with the whole hoopla silk-screened on front and back. I will probably work up the "gumption" (did I spell that right?) to wear it on a spring run with the ElectraGlide one of these days.



regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

Bent

Have you ever seen a Holland & Holland with ill fitting Weaver mounts installed by Holland & Holland? With a factory installed Buhler Safety?

Mickey,

I have seen H&H's with both Weavers and Buehlers - but never ill-fitted. I have seen rifles from many of the Brittish gunhouses with strange attachments. And they have been forgiven for everything, because of ignorance and worshipping. A friend of mine has a regular dinged up Sako bought at H&H in London, with a barrel stamped "Shot and regulated by H&H". They do more than make "London Best Guns", but that is not as widely known. And like I said before, if one of their customers want a scope fitted, they will do so.
Spesially after the last war they have done many a strange thing, when the African market was down and business was low. The H&H in question had its barrel changed in the 50's, according to .400NE, and that is right at the time when they started to use American made gadgets. Not always very true to their own style either, ALF has told us how American stocks of the 60/70's had their following in England, resulting in - strange things.
At H&H, they still do things that have the good peoples at Purdey snickering in the corners, but I guess they are done with the Buehlers and the Weavers.

Our friend .400 NE obviously knows a lot, but to call me ignorant, I find somewhat pig-headed.