I'm looking for someone with actual experience chambering barrels for the .450-3 1/4" Nitro Express. A client brought in an as new Westley Richard single shot, take down rifle chambered for this cartridge. The barrel is marked ".450 Ex" and has other markings and proof stamps to indicate it is indeed chambered and proofed for smokeless cartridges.

The issue is that the chamber would not accept Hornady .450 cases. It was too small in diameter. I sought to correct this by lightly reaming the chamber with a new PTG, CIP standard reamer. This was about 99% effective. Ammunition loaded with Hornady dies and Hornady cases drop effortlessly into the chamber but stop about 1/2 the thickness of the rim from completely chambering. This protrusion is enough to prevent the breechblock from closing. These cartridges can be fully seated with thumb pressure, at which point they become stuck in the chamber and require use of the ejector to remove.

The client wants cartridges to drop freely into the chamber to full depth. He objects to manually seating cartridges. The solution is to either make the chamber slightly larger or to make the cartridges slightly smaller. My experience with both PTG and Hornady makes me suspect the Hornady dies. The $64,000 dollar question is have those of you who actually chamber for the .450 Nitro ever encountered this problem? If not, whose reamer did you use for the chamber work?

Your responses are appreciated.

Cheers,

Roger

Could use a few more clues ..
Does it give a Cordite charge weight and Bullet weight?
My 1903 450 also gives a cartridge dimension "3 1/4" tapered"
I have spoken with those that own 450BPE and they say that thier chamber was not happy with Hornady brass

Agree with the above - does it have cordite proof loading stamped on it?
Second, Hornady dies are crap.
Also, I have run into one 450 that I had to FLS without a shell holder to get the case far enough into the die to size the last little bit of the base - about as much as you describe.
Of course, a brass rod was needed to knock the cases out of the die and even then that practice was a little worrisome.

I had to mill a few thou off of shell holders to get enough set back on case shoulders and or full length resize

Just to clarify, this is .450 Nitro Express, not the BPE. The barrel is marked "W.R. High Velocity Express Rifle .450 Bore" and "70 Cordite--480 MAX".

I agree Hornady dies are crap. I started with Hornady dies for my .450/.400 x 3" and had problems. The problems went away when I switched to RCBS. Unfortunately, the only commonly available .450 dies are Hornady. You could say the same thing about cartridge cases but even Hornady cases are tough to come by.

Ok, should have called me first. You are involved in the 450 NE Rim situation, in which there are actually two 450 Nitros; one with a .040 rim and another with a .060 rim. From memory; those figures could vary, but your chamber is for the thin rim, and your ammo is for the thick rimmmed cartridge.
Rifles are not marked so I have no idea how they identified them way back then.

If you haven't already smoke or blacken a case and see where the pinch point is when chambering. Although your client may use reloaded ammo where you can size or trim cases to suit the tight chamber, the rifle should be spec'd to properly chamber factory ammo too.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, should have called me first. You are involved in the 450 NE Rim situation, in which there are actually two 450 Nitros; one with a .040 rim and another with a .060 rim. From memory; those figures could vary, but your chamber is for the thin rim, and your ammo is for the thick rimmmed cartridge.
Rifles are not marked so I have no idea how they identified them way back then.

Sorry, Tom. While you are certainly omniscient and chief among the AR illuminati, you are not infallible. I checked the rim recess early on. As explained in the original post, cartridges can be fully seated with only moderate thumb pressure. This would be impossible were the rim recess not deep enough to accept the cartridge rim.

I had this happen once before; my 800 mile clairvoyance mechanism failed; I was sure I saw a thin rimmed rifle in your hands. Turns out to be a tight chambered one. Also, I do not read the posts before answering; saves time that way.
I have had 3 modern 450 NEs and still have a Searcy. Never had a problem with Hornady ammo, or hand loads using Hornady dies. I'd get a reamer made specifically for the ammo. Early ammo and chambers are sometimes smaller.
However, I also had a 450 BPE Alex Henry that I had no problems with either.

PM sent.

As Zephyr has suggested, take a few thou off your shell holder face to push the cases into the FL die a little further. Had to do this for my 7mm-08 loading to size the cases to fit. A medium grade wet and dry paper on a flat metal surface and sand off the face of the shell holder by hand with a rotary action. Set die to give a a good bump. Does no harm and if you change dies in the future just back off slightly to set headspace. DON'T grind the FL die mouth.

I prefer to machine off the die mouth when I want a smaller case OD. No don't grind it; machine it with carbide tool.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I prefer to machine off the die mouth when I want a smaller case OD. No don't grind it; machine it with carbide tool.

Yes achieves much the same thing but not everyone has access to a lathe whereas anyone can sand off a few thou from a shell holder and if you f..k up that simple job you can just throw the holder away and buy a new one for a few bucks

Take a chamber cast to start with and slug the bore, and go from there, always a good start in the right direction..English bores can vary to hell and back, they run the chamber reamers in a ways and call it good....408, 409, 410, 411, and Ive been told 412..450-400s are the worst offender in 3-1/4, but 3" are also guilty..they shoot a lot better when you figure that out.. most are .410 or .411 and a few at .408, the otherw are rare. I loved the calibers, and was my primary double for buffalo..

DPCD was dead on re: rim thicknesses differ thick and thin..

Thanks to all for your helpful suggestions. This issue has not gone away, and I attempted to find the problem by comparing CIP minimum chamber and maximum cartridge dimensions with those of the reamer (since my reamer was used to enlarge the original WR chamber, I assume reamer and chamber dimensions to be identical) and the reloaded cartridges. The reamer--brand new from PTG--dimensions were either the same as the CIP print or a couple thousandths larger. To me, this means the chamber is within specifications. Cartridge dimensions were also with specifications with the head being about .003" smaller than the chamber and the neck of a loaded cartridge about .005" smaller than the chamber. Case length was less than maximum. Cartridges are loaded with short 300-grain bullets that clear the rifling and measure only .451" at the case mouth.

Based on all of this, the cartridges should be a free fit in the chamber, and they are except for about 1/2 the thickness of the rim (.020"). The rim recess and extractor hook are large enough and deep enough for the cases. Since the case heads are already smaller than the chamber mouth, altering the shell holder or FL size die would not improve things. So, what to do? Were new cartridge cases, and especially those from a different manufacturer, available, I would see how those work. As it is, I'm left scratching my head and welcome any of divination from an erudite source. This Westley Richards is in mint condition, both in appearance and in mechanical function, and I will not undertake any alterations without the certainty the problem has been correctly diagnosed.

Thanks,

Roger

“This Westley Richards is in mint condition, both in appearance and in mechanical function, and I will not undertake any alterations without the certainty the problem has been correctly diagnosed.“

Sounds like your cleaning the chamber up with a new finish reamer is all that reasonably can be done to the rifle itself.

Is your customer a reloader or does he want to use factory ammo (very hard to come by these days)?
Have you tried factory Hornady loaded rounds or only hand loaded cartridges using fresh Hornady brass?

You describe being able to press the cartridges home to close the action.
I suppose it wouldn’t hurt to smooth out the mouth of the chamber with some compound to take out that last little tightness.

Otherwise, if your client gets too frustrated with the project, send him my way and I can help him find some relief

Dear Huvius,

Should my client continue to dislike seating cartridges with his thumb, I will offer you the second opportunity to relieve him of such troubles. However, I am first in line, and having shot the rifle extensively in load development, I assure you my client need look only to his friendly gunsmith to remedy such an inconvenience.
Roger

Does the fired brass act differently than the new brass?

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Does the fired brass act differently than the new brass?

No. The Hornady FL sizing die does a good job and sizes fired cases a couple of thousandths smaller than minimum chamber dimensions. This is correct. I have come to the conclusion that the minimum chamber reamer is just a little too small. I plan to send the reamer back to PTG and ask they set back the reamer enough to slightly increase body diameter.

I appreciate your interest. The .450 x 3 14" is a great cartridge, and it seems as though it's chamber and cartridge dimensions have changed enough over its 140 year history just enough to frustrate those of us who would shoot an old, original rifle with modern components. As frustrating as this has been, I would much rather be challenged by older, classic rifles than to be limited to the boring sameness of the Remington M700 & its ilk. Of course, exceptions are made for the wonderful Oberndorf M98 sporting rifles.
Cheers,
oger



m700

I would match it to Hornady brass inasmuch as I see the Hornady as the only factory ammo of the future, I believe that is why Searcy recently cut his chambers to match Hornady bullets...??????

Headspace problems develop in these old guns both doubles and bolt actions, and in some cases cannot be fixed, and you have to treat them like a wildcat and fireform the cases and give the old girl new life...its a pain but it works. In doubles better slug the bores as they vary.

Maybe you've tried all of these, but I tend to work on the cheapest part first.

Cases trimmed?
Chamfered & Deburred?
Crimped? Is the crimp causing a bulge at the case mouth?
Try a different projectile?
Try different dies?
Try different brass? Too thick at the mouth?

Maybe start with FL sized Hornady case and start cutting it down by 1/2" at a time to see where the "stick" is? At the rim? Ahead of the rim? Not in the case at all (see projectile)?

Good luck.

If its a bit stickey Id first polish the chamber before recutting it..Use 400 wet or dry as it works well and allows the case to purchase the chamber walls better on firing, 600 and finer causes a degree of set back..Ive been there and back with old English doubles in that caliber as well as the 3"..

But your problem is rim thickness you have thick rims on a thin rimmed chamber, just turn the rim down to spects..Like dpcd said to start with, lots of overthinking it seems too me. The world of the double is a different cat..

You can make or modify that double with some of the other double rifle calibers that use thin rim brass.

Good news!! Over 3 months ago I sent my .450 NE reamer back to PTG along with 3 cases that were full-length sized in the Hornady FL size die and which would chamber easily. PTG was instructed to re-grind the reamer to match the cases. Got the reamer back yesterday and used it to enlarge the chamber. Problem solved. Sized cases and loaded cartridges freely fall into the chamber and fall out again when the muzzle is elevated. Thanks for all of your recommendations along the way.

I will burden you with one additional request. What powder do you use for reduced loads with no filler? I have had excellent results with AA 5744 in both the .450/400-3" and the .450x3 1/4
using light bullets at reduced velocities and developed an accurate load with 5744 and 300-grain Hornady HPs at 1800 fps with are perfect for plinking and Georgia whitetails within 100 yards. But, 5744 is no where to be found. Please don't recommend loads that require fillers. The rifle's owner is not an advanced reloader and doesn't want to use fillers. As always, I appreciate your advice, but in this case, I think there is no viable alternative to 5744.
Cheers from Georgia. Roger

Have a copy of Graeme Wright's book? Reduced loads without filler might be problematic. Others more experienced with reduced loads might chime in.

quote:

Originally posted by kda55:
Have a copy of Graeme Wright's book? Reduced loads without filler might be problematic. Others more experienced with reduced loads might chime in.

Mr. kda55,
Yes, I have 2 editions of Mr. Wright's excellent book. I have tried all manner of fillers from polyfill, cork wads, floral foam, and to backer rod. Backer rod worked the best. A .450 case loaded with H4198 and polypill produces a prodigious cloud of filler, enough so that you'd think it was snowing. I have also tried H4198, VV N135, H4895, Varget, and H4350 with assorted fillers. All of these produces erratic velocities and poor accuracy. For reduced loads in high capacity cases, AA 5744 works best for me and requires no filler. I'm afraid I asked a question for which their is no suitable answer.

Check your PM's.

You can buy fillers to fit the 450-400s from London. I buy mine at Safari club in bulk..Fillers are not dangerous or complicated, they can increase psi by 2000 fps but mine never came close to that with recommended loads..or use pillow foam, about 5 grs and pack down lightly with a new unused wood pencil, I mostly used H4831 and no need for a filler..

I've had good luck with Trail Boss and full-weight jacketed (Woodleigh) bullets in my 470NE. I'd have to look up the weight, but I followed the Hodgdon directions for starting loads. They regulated well enough at 50yds (I believe wider than normal regulating loads? I want to say 4" spread, but well enough for practice).

Dear Brandon,
Thank you for your suggestion to try Trail Boss. Fortunately, my client has ben able to buy some AA 5744. The .450 x 3 1/4" is a great cartridge. It's a shame components can be so hard to get and that reduced loads without fillers can be problematic. My client's rifle is a lovely Westley Richards M1897 single-shot the weighs about 7 pounds with a steel buttplate. I can only guess the English hunters of 120+ years ago were made of sterner stuff, as full power .450 NE loads in a light single-shot would certainly be an experience not soon to be forgotten.

Why is it important to use no filler?

If you are willing to use a filler, IMR 4198 or H4198 (they are close but not exactly the same) with a filler made of 1/2" foam backer rod from the hardware store will work perfectly.
In my Lott, I settled on a charge of 54grs and a bullet of 450gr with a piece of backer rod that went from the top of the powder to the bottom of the bullet.
Some, I simply trimmed at the case mouth and let the bullet compress a little - saw no difference.
Didn't get a chronograph on them, but the shot great and were definitely not close to full power loads.

That's the beauty of reducing loads for a nitro gun, rather than doing much the same to develop a smokeless load for a BPE rifle.
You often end up at the same place load wise, but there is a wider margin of safety in the nitro proved rifle so if you feel the need to increase the charge, you have the whole range from light cast or plinker loads all the way up to full power factory specs.

Huvius,
I have had no problems with fillers ever since I used Cream of Wheat to top off .30-06 reduced, cast bullet loads almost 60 years ago. Were the rifle mine, I'd use a filler, but I'm just the gunsmith. The rifle owner is a novice reloader and not so open minded.
Roger

the last filler I'd use in any bottle neck case is COW.