500,

Perhaps for some of the time but not FOREVER

Mike

Mike 378- Having given it lots of thought and consideration, I doubt that in the situation I was in that a .577 Double would have done any better. No shot at anything vital. The first shot had to simply turn the ELE. Then the fast second shot was critical. I think that any caliber of .458win mag or up would have worked. However, recovery time becomes a factor with my ability to recover from a .577NE being much slower than from a .470NE. I have the sickening feeling though that had I used a .375 H&H or a .416 Rigby that Bull would not have turned and would have charged instead. There is a marked difference in the effect of bigger bores on animals, however, the trade off is weight and ability to recover quickly. Weight is a problem, because it wears you down, will effect your accuracy when your tired and doesn't help recovery one bit. I honestly think that the .470NE and maybe a light (12 lb) .500NE in a double is in the sweet spot given these considerations. You just don't need more tha 4 ft of penetration on anything. Johan Calitz and I had quite a good discussion about this and we are in total agreement. If I could find/build a 8.5-9lb .470NE double, I'd be content to use it for all DG hunting anywhere in the world. I'd quit my search for the perfect weapon and concentrate on fast shooting skills and building stamina. The pay-off would be spectacular I think. -Rob

I bet Butch Searcy could make a .470 NE with slim barrel profiles and do you a custom profile on the receiver to slim it up and drop a good 2 pounds off the weight of the gun. Also, you could get him to make it with shorter barrels, lightening the rifle further.

All I can go by is what I have seen in Safari camp over the years and I will NEVER own any bolt action but a Mauser or control feed Winchester....

My only push feed is a Searcy double, and I push the rounds in the holes!

I'm more of a reader on DG CRF v. PF, lean towards a good proven CRF, which aren't without at least one serious fault i've previousy mentioned a couple of times, and at least one serious disadvantage that proponents gloss over.

But some posts here from CRF users are a bit amusing to me, where they run down PF users as a bit irresponsible.

Some thoughts;
Some people would say anyone encouraging a newchum to get within cooee of DG is irresponsible in itself. Gun, camera, whatever.

Some might say the PH is supposed to keep the newchum out of trouble no matter what he is using.
Others have mentioned using what the shooter is famaliar with.
Obviously a big cal double is best. (For two shots anyway).
Reloading a double with shakey fingers under pressure, upside down, flying through the air,
come on now fellers.
John Hunter (my present read) used a second double and a man to reload it. (Depends on the man as to whether that method is much better than a PF.)

One so-called Buf charge shown on the African forum I saw, I think had 3 (three) rifles banging away before the buf got within (seemed like) 50 yards. (Hard to tell with different lenses)

Then there is the possibility of not even getting a shot off with anything, re a post on African shooting re a PH getting done in by a female Elle with out fireing a shot.

So all things considered, and respect to the opinions of the highly experenced DG shooters here, who are after all only trying to steer us in the right direction, I don't know that PF v. CRF makes all that much difference overall.

And for anyone sick of the discussions, well you don't have to read them.
Start a post on whether you should have two doubles, and a reloader.
John L.

Just to stir the pot a little.

Two of the best liked and most popular elephant rifles in .458 Win used on the controll programmes were the manlicher and the BS, Both push feed rifles. I have never seen one of either make jamb or fail.

.

I own a Model 70 push feed in .300 WinMag and, if forced to choose a PF for DG would use it. Mostly because I am comfortable with the feel of the rifle because I have two CRF Model 70's as well, ie. safety, trigger position, bolt operation.

I use mausers and czs since my childhood and they are the most common rifles here in argentina,in the army i shoot my cz 308 daily in rapid fire practical exercises ,for killing goats,foxes and my 375hyhs ,and 458 for culling cebues and buffalos ,but i saw a lot of clients with push feed rifles and a lot of sniper rifles in the army and air force and police and i saw only to breack stractors in remingtons 700 in all my life.Besides my cz 308 jums the last bullet too ,so i believe if its a good rifle it doesnt matter to much .BUT WE USE MAUSERS TYPES.JUAN

RIFLES OF THE PHS I MY COMPANY ,A.FOERSTER MAUSER,MARCOS FISCHER CZ,CRISTIAN MAUSER,BRODAS BROTHERS CZS,JUAN CZ AND MAUSER ,G.AMESTOY CZ416 ,REMIGTON 300WINCH,LOPEZ CZ .JUAN MOST ARE 375HYHS SOME 416 SOME 458S