Let me state first off that I am a huge fan of the Mauser 98 system, and I am only asking this question out of interest and curiosity (I am not trying to open a debate on push feeds vs. CRF). If you had to choose a bolt action push feed rifle to hunt dangerous game with - what rifle or action would you choose? My choice would be a SAKO (I like the new 75 as much as the older two lug models so either would be fine). The new Voere XXL might also be on the list. What would your choice be?

OK, I'll bite. Nikko Golden Eagle and/or Colt Saur. Those were my first bolt action biggies when I got out of the 30-30 mode. 375 H&H and 458 WM in the former and 375 H7H in the latter.

"Push feed dangerous game rifle"


You can also take a bath with you clothes on. But it kinda defeats the purpose.

I'm off this thread now! Good luck!

FN FAL.

One of the PHs in my Moz. camp last year had a Rem. in .416. He loves it, says he's never had a lick of a problem & has fired it several times in anger, but I still prefer my M70.

I'm glad you asked, 9.3.

No one else wants to talk about my 1976 Win Super Grade PF .458WM. If I had of won the trip to Africa (sob) it would have had to do.
It seems reliable, if you keep it upright, work the bolt fully, and don't run with the action open, or wander around with the safety on half way.
Hell are PH's for anyway, if not to look after PF shooters.
John L>

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
I'm glad you asked, 9.3.

No one else wants to talk about my 1976 Win Super Grade PF .458WM. If I had of won the trip to Africa (sob) it would have had to do.
It seems reliable, if you keep it upright, work the bolt fully, and don't run with the action open, or wander around with the safety on half way.
Hell are PH's for anyway, if not to look after PF shooters.
John L>

Me Too....for a push feed the M-70 is also a fine gun. I've owned several and they work well for me.

As of today it would be either my Sako AV in 416 Rem Mag or my CZ in 416 Rigby. Neither have ever hiccuped, and both swing for me like well fitted shotguns.

I am in the process of having a few CRFs made in appropriate calibers, mainly just for something to do. When those are done they will be relaible and well fitted also. Then I will have to move back to the city and get a real job so I can afford to take them all on Safari before I die.

If I could only have one rifle for the rest of my life it would be the Sako.

lawndart

Steyr-Daimler-Puch Model S/T.

HS Precision, Wby in the 378 based calibres and other rifles with in line feed. If reliability to cycle cartridges was the critical feature I would take those over any staggered feed CRF.

Mike

I have a HEYM SR21 in 30/06 and a BLASER Attache 9.3x62,and would use them in 9.3 or 375H&H on dangerous game any time, and have.
I also like M98's in particular in 375 and up providing they feed well, I would imagine this is a far bigger problem than double feeding.
Adam.

Forget PF-actions for dangerous game. You need a CRF-action - it gives you both controlled feeding and better extraction. The Mauser type claw is still the best for reliable extraction when things go wrong. Even Sako changed their action for the 375 H&H Safari rifle to become more reliable.

Chris Bekker

quote:

Originally posted by truvelloshooter:
Even Sako changed their action for the 375 H&H Safari rifle to become more reliable.

Chris Bekker

Or - to satisfy the crowds...........?
CRF seems to be almost a religion theese days.

From A2's reloading manual :

"The slickest, smoothest, fastest-operating action in my battery is that of my push-feed post'64 M70 in .458 Win. I have used this rifle for back up work, and for going into the thick stuff to see if the beast was dead or just totally aggravated. I would do so again, and be quite content to bet my life that the rifle would do its part."

Finn Aagaard, RIP.

He crapped bigger than most of us.

PF or CRF, what really matters is to have a rifle that works and wich you master. If it has done so for years and has been regularly maintained, it will not fail just because you enter Africa. If Murphy desides to kick your behind, he will, and does not care one damn lick what kind of rifle you have.

Chris

If the Mauser type extractor is the big thing then the conversion Sako did means nothing.

Actually I think CRF is a bad name for the rifles so called. Controlling the round while it is being fed belongs to the in line feed rifles.

I think Bent Fossdal really covered things when he said what is important is that either type works.

However, an in line feed will work with much lower quality control than will a stagger feed CRF action and doubly so with rounds like 458 Win, 458 Lott, 416 Rem when loaded with very blunt bullets. 375 of course is a better deal since the bullet is smaller in relation to the diameter of the chamber opening.

Mike

This:Herr Svelte

Push feed M-70 for me .

If I were to use a Pushfeed rifle to hunt dangerous game, which I never wiil as long as I have a choice, it would be a Styer Mannlicher, or a SAKO! It may be hard for some to believe, but I own several pushfeed rifles, but the larges is a 7mm Rem Mag mod 700 ADL, that belonged to my father. All have been used by me for hunting, but only Deer, coyotes, and
P-Dogs!

Is my SxS double a push feed or CRF?

500,

Well if you open the barrels and drop the cartridges in then it is a drop feed

However, if you push the cartridges in then it would be similar to a true CRF, that is, in line feed with proper control of the cartridge during the feeding cycle

Mike

Hmmm...

Shortly after picking up my Rem Classic in .375H&H, I'd read that push-feeds had problems with feeding upside down, and that this was a very bad thing when hunting dangerous game. So I tried operating the action upside down, and found 1) it kicked out the old cartridge fine, and 2) it fed the next cartridge reliably. The reason it worked was that the cartridge was already pushed sufficiently into the chamber before it was stripped all the way out of the magazine. Then I began to wonder WHY I would need to operate the rifle upside down... certainly not if I were still on my feet; the question is, would I still have the presence or strength to operate the rifle while hanging upside down while impaled on an elephant's tusk?

For all of that, I *have* had a feed problem only with one rifle, that being a win mod 70 classic. I still haven't figured out what that was about. I have never been able to duplicate the problem again.

In the end, the biggest problems I've heard about seem to have to do with quality of various firearms (ie Remington).

Dan

quote:

Push feed M-70 for me .

Sdgunslinger,

If the M70 PF was big enough for the 378 size cases and the action was well made I think it would be my pick of all actions and very much so if it had an in line feed.

One thing never mentioned on these forums because it affects so few people the CRF M70 is no good for setting up actions so barrels can me moved between actions. The extractor slot stuffs things. Although I suppose the slot could be machined all the way around the barrel.

Mike

Dan,

If you fitted than Rem 700 with an HS Precision magazine you could turn the rifle upside down while 500 Grains hung from the cartridge and it would still feed, especially since he now only weighs 142 pounds.


Mike

Ed Brown Model 702 Bushveld.

Ed Brown Bushveld

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Ed Brown Model 702 Bushveld.

Ed Brown Bushveld

This action gives new meaning to the term "Remingchester" I have little doubt that it;'s a fine working action.....but $3,000 for a non walnut stocked rifle is a bit much IMO. I can install a McMillan stock to a pre-64 winchester for that and have scheckles left over to go buy gasoline for the truck.

Vapodog,

Apart from the fact that the thread was about PF DG rifles $3000 is not all that high for a glass stocked rifle. A Wby DGR with Krieger cut barrel and action work is about $4700, a Lazzeroni is well over $5000 and the McMillan and Nesika stuff will be in the $3500 plus area.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Is my SxS double a push feed or CRF?

Placeing the cartridges dirrectly in the chambers with your fingers is about as controlled feed as you can get! To top this off no feeding is needed at all between shot one, and shot two! A CRF bolt rifle is only slightly less controlled than your double rifle, , but miles ahead of any push feed bolt rifle!

HOW BOUT TAT,Y"ALL ?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Vapodog,

Apart from the fact that the thread was about PF DG rifles $3000 is not all that high for a glass stocked rifle. A Wby DGR with Krieger cut barrel and action work is about $4700, a Lazzeroni is well over $5000 and the McMillan and Nesika stuff will be in the $3500 plus area.

Mike

Some folks charge $40,000 for a low rider car, but I doubt it will stay with my old Trooper 4X4 in the hunting field, even if you painted Zebra strips on it. One is simply designed for hunting without problem, the other has 4 wheels, and that is where the similarity ends! The same goes for push feed rifle!

IMO, anyone who would pay $4K-$10K for a pushfeed so-called DGR is a little light in the brain basket! Especially that spiral grooved bolt Remsavmoschester in the link!

NOW!, I hope this doesn't start a PF/CRF controvercy. It's been so long since we had one! What has it been, ten days now?

If it's meant for you to enter Valhalla you are going and CRF will not save you.

By MacD's argument, a single shot is as reliable a feeding system as a double -- though you only get one more shot instead of two when you've finished the exercize -- though you only have to load (fumble with) the one, instead of two...

Dan

Mac,

It suprises me that someone who is a double rifle man such as yourself would want a bolt action that introduces the problem of having to get a case rim to slide up under an extractor and do it at an angle. A system I might add that is very dependent on case rim quality and extractor groove dimensions.

That spiral groove bolt rifle you referred to probably has more case rim under the extractor than your Mauser can ever achieve, a recoil lug about 3 times as big, about 3 times as much stock material behind the recoil lug and a huge tang that sits on top of the stock as opposed to a tiny tang that has the potential to act like little recoil lug and split the stock.

But I can appreciate trying to get complex rifles like Mausers to work and not split stocks adds to the challenge and hence the enjoyment

Mike

My tang-safety M77 in .458 Win is a push-feed with the big claw extractor. It's the slickest and smoothest bolt gun I've ever owned and gives me 2125fps with 500gr bullets. It's functioned 100% since the day I got it and fits/points like a bird-gun. I would not have the slightest hesitation in taking it against any animal anywhere.

You're still more likely to be killed in your car on the way to the airport to fly to the RSA than in the field due to an equipment failure. When your time is up, it's up - nothing will get in the way of that.

Yet another tastless piece:



(458 lott bushveld model by Ed Brown. Yuck! I think the fellow has been posessed by the demon spirit of Roy Weatherby.)

The only way to reduce human error in a push feed is to remove the human operation of the bolt. This would be my choice.

Look Here

The first rule in test taking is to read the question before offering an answer.

By that measure, very nearly more respondents to this thread flunked than passed.

Ah, but such is life. The illusion of CRF superiority will inevitably get in the way of this kind of discussion.

It dies particularly hard in those without sufficient experience to know the difference between theory and fact.

It's a wonder that Finn Aagaard managed to live long enough to die in bed, having depended for so many years on that post-64 Winchester .458!

ZM

quote:

Originally posted by Mike378:
Mac,

That spiral groove bolt rifle you referred to probably has more case rim under the extractor than your Mauser can ever achieve, a recoil lug about 3 times as big, about 3 times as much stock material behind the recoil lug and a huge tang that sits on top of the stock as opposed to a tiny tang that has the potential to act like little recoil lug and split the stock.

Mike

Mike, all the things above have absolutely nothing to do with feeding! The spiraling is useless, and only adds to the cost of manufacture, and is a neat smoke screen to sell cute rifles. The size of the extractor is only one of the componants of CRF, and is quite addiquate on a Mauser. You could put an extractor the size of your hand,in a PF action, and it still wouldn't make the action a Control feed action. The size of the recoil lug has nothing to do with feeding, and is only usefull if it is attached to the cartridge. In a PF action the extractor has not grabbed the cartridge till the bolt handle is turned down, this isn't the case with the CRF, is has it as soon as the round pops loose from the magazine. If one builds a large bore on the Mauser action, or any other action, it is prudent to have a proper recoil lug, and cross bolts built into it! The real kickers have a barrel mounted recoil lug as well, if the builder knows anything about big bore rifle building. The rear tang is not supposed to be a recoil lug, and if you knew anything about Mauser, and like actions, you would know the wood must be releaved aft of the tang. I have at least a dozen Mauser rifles that I built, and stocked, to just about every chambering you can think of, and there is not one cracked stock among them, because they are properly stocked, and timed so they feed without worry!

The feeding of the CRF action is not a hard thing to adjust to the cartridge you are building the rifle for. Like any action, any custom chambering has to be timed to the the feeding system of the action. Anyone can build a PF that is no more than a pipe that one can simply drop a cartridge into the end and turn the lid on behind it, that certainly doesn't require $5k, to $10K to do, any plumber could build a pushfeed action. It cost the ecentually the same to buy a CRF action, so I don't under stand why anyone would choose a cheaper made action to one that was better, and more reliable, at the same cost.

All you hear from the guys who build PF rifles that they call DGRs, is how accurate they are at 500 yds. Who gives a crap what a DGR does at 500 yds, no animal on earth is dangerous at 500 yds. What you need is a rifle that has a large enough chambering, that works every time at 10 feet, from any position, or while running and jumping fallen trees, and rocks, without bounceing a loose round out of your rifle letting you close the bolt on an empty chamber! Spirals, engraveing, and 500 yd accuracy do not drag you butt out of the fire, reliability does. When you get down to slamming that bolt forward, and back, while dodgeing a Cat or Buffalo, you certainly don't want an action that simply guesses where the cartridge is within it's action.

Those who want to use PF actions are welcome to do exactly that, all I'm saying is CRF is a better system that costs no more, so why not use everything you can to avoid a malfunction. I couldn't care less what you (the generic YOU) use, but what I object to on these type strings is, the missinformation issued by those who choose to use PF rifles to take on Dangerous game, and reccomending that choice to young folks who don't know better! It seems to me that they don't know better themselves, so it is understandable, I guess!

The USA, for now, allows you to shoot what ever you want, and those who choose a PF so-called DGR, is exercising his right to do so, We all have the right to make that choice, and mine is first, a S/S double rifle, and secondly a CRF bolt rifle, as the basis for my DGRs! You may do as it pleases you!

Mac,

The reason a lot of people will pick PF over CRF is just because of the overall rifle or overall action.

Of course continuing postings in the Gunsmithing forums of CRFs not feeding might also contribute

One of the points I have tried to make is that the PF with in line feed, big recoil lug, big tang sitting on top of the wood will function with a much lower degree of quality control.

Mike

I'd like to ADD to Mac's retort. If you have TIME to operate a bolt action in a TIGHT situation on ANY dangerous game then you have TIME to operate a PF or CRF action. If you don't have TIME, like when ol MBOGO is 5 ft away from stomping your ass, then YOU WILL NOT HAVE TIME TO STROKE ANY BOLT ACTION. PERIOD! Don't worry about feeding reliability, you will never get that far into the cycle. Controlled round feeding -too bad too late! Remember, bolt actions were designed by the military for engaging the enemy at 200-1000yrds( thats why the sights on military Mausers have long range graduations). CRF was a good idea too for reliability with poorly trained troops in the mud. The double rifle was invented for absolute reliability and Total simplicity( lack of complexity) for tight situations where there is no TIME to do anything other than shoot instinctively. If you are far enough away from Dangerous game to use a bolt gun are they still really dangerous and will a CRF or PF matter? If your real close then NO Bolt gun is the right choice. Frankly people going hunting for DG with a bolt gun or double) would do better to pick a gun that fits them properly( pf or CRF -who cares) and PRACTICE shooting it OFFHAND with FULL POWER AMMO at 25-50 yrds ( without concentrating on the sights) and firing it as fast as possible many many times. When you can stay on a pie plate your ready to go after DG. If it ever jams, fails to feed, etc. Junk IT. It's not reliable enough for DG. This goes for doubles too! Mastering that little drill is FAR more important than endless Range Queen discussions about CRF vs PF rifles.-Rob

Rob

Sometime ago 500 Grains made the point that the DG like the elephant up close turns all bolt actions into single shots!!!!

Reading your African report would tend to support 500 Grains.

As matter of interest, do think if your double had of been a 577 instead of a 470 would you have see that as a plus or minus. In others words stopping power Vs recoil recovery.

Mike

Hey Mike,

If I buy you one of those HS Precision PF safari guns, would you promise to stop posting about them FOREVER?

:grin: