I got my 308 back from the smith.I sent it in to have open sights installed.The rifle is a new Remington.My goal was to get the rifle to zero off the bench in the same spot at 100yds that I have for my lott.That way it should shoot center at 100yds offhand and allow me to practice shooting offhand with it.I fired the first round at 25yds, off the bench, to see if I could get on target.The lowest hole on the target posted below is the first shot fired.The remaining holes are offhand shots at 25yds after the rifle was zeroed.The second target at 100yds shows shots fired off the bench while I try to get as nearest I can to the lower left orange square.I stop when I get close and then start shooting offhand at 100yds on the black circle.The target tells me that I succeeded.The next time I go back,I will raise the 100yd target and see if the zero remains the same,when the angle of fire is changed.

25yds


100yds off the bench


100yds offhand


Remington

I could do better offhand especially if it is not -20 degrees(-30 windchill) and not having watery eyes.The rounds used were fireformed in my previous 308.They are not accurate in this rifle but I used them anyways since I did not yet recieve some new cases.

How do you see that square at 100 yards with open sights? Or did you just sight it in while aiming at the circle? So 4 inches low, and 4 inches left?

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
How do you see that square at 100 yards with open sights? Or did you just sight it in while aiming at the circle? So 4 inches low, and 4 inches left?

Tyler,I aim at the center of the large orange circle.I don't aim for the square but know it has to shoot there so I can shoot center at 100,offhand.Five inches to the left would have been better.

I don't know if anyone else has tried this method of shooting open sights to test sight alignment, but it has worked wonders for me. In stead of alignng the front sight at the bottom or the center of a round bull, I align on the top of the bull. I fit the upper curve of the bead to the upper curve of the bull. My groups shrink significantly when I use this method.

465H&H

Here's a link to an article written by Ganyana
A tin-hat target is easier to work with on open hunting sights.

http://huntnetwork.net/modules...e%20For%20Africa.pdf

Hope it helps

Mark

465;

Yes, many competitive shooters use center of mass, 6 o'clock, sub 6, flat tire (just into the balck, or top of black-any method is useable, some have advantages over othrs in unique ways.

I used to shoot 6 o'clock (XTC HP comp), but presbyopia neccessitates a CM hold (center of a blob is still center), while a sharp post is absolutely required. With the 6:00 hold, I have trouble repeating elevation as the target seems to grow/fade with eye fatigue reulting in hi/lo hits that are rather frustrating!.

The 12:00 hold is just as useable as the 6:00, ASSUMING your eyes can still see a sharp bull AND post/bead at the same time (well, not really as the eye can only focus on plane at any given time). For target use it is fine, for hunting, as long as POA/POI are the same, again, no big deal.

A couple of things to think about.

If this is just for target use try ALL the different reference points and use the one you shoot the best groups with...AND once that is found...GET OFF the bench and finish the sight in process holding the rifle as you would in competition to finalize the sight in.

If this is for hunting...sight in on a target to center mass of the target...THEN...get OFF the bench, hold the rifle as you would in a hunting situation AND use an ANIMAL TARGET... aiming for the places you want the bullet to strike. I think of a soccer ball or ground squirrel superimposed over the vital area of the animal no matter how it is standing and aim for the center or the organ depending on what is clear for the shot.

I also...as most oldiee...we all have eye issues, so "standard" open sights are just all but useless and I have replaced those types of sights on all my shooters that don't have scopes.

Receiver sights(peep sights) and/or low power scopes present a single plain sighting object, i.e., a cross hair with little or no magnification or just the front sight bead. Plus the longer distance between the peep and the front sight allow for a finer bead. I also drill out the insert hole midway between an open "ghost" ring and the factory standard that normally comes with open sights...5/32" or 11/64" seem to work best for me.

I use ground squirrel targets(downloaded off one of the varminting sites) that give a representative size at 100 yards as they would at 200-500 yds once I get a new rifle initially sighted in. That also gives me an idea what image the animal would present at the different ranges in reference to the cross hair dimensions and spacing and also the front bead diameter. That way I can use those references as range estimaters.

It works great to use a ground squirrel target knowing it's size and having spent all summer whacking those little buggers, then check the sights on my hunting rifles prior to hunting, then visualize that rat superimposed on a deer/antlope/bear/elk and looking the bullet right into the spine for a quick drop.

There a lots of methods to use...try some or all and pick the one that works best for you. Very important to check the ammo for consistency with a scope...unless the ammo is accurate you could be whizzing in the wind trying to get groups that are impossible with bad ammo.

george
are you loading 000 buckshot in your lott cases?

4x5 inch, off the bench groups, are not bragging material

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:
Here's a link to an article written by Ganyana
A tin-hat target is easier to work with on open hunting sights.

http://huntnetwork.net/modules...e%20For%20Africa.pdf

Hope it helps

Mark

Thanks for the link,Mark!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
george
are you loading 000 buckshot in your lott cases?

4x5 inch, off the bench groups, are not bragging material

If you are reffering to the second taget pictured,those .308 shots are not part of a group.I fired one at a time then adjusted the sights to get to the final spot.

While changing the striker spring on my Ruger,I found the spring pin broken.This could be the cause of a couple of misfires I had with the rifle.The new 24lbs striker spring works great,BTW.I could really feel the difference the last time I shot offhand practice.[URL= ]spring pin[/URL] The pin probably broke during dry fire practice.If anyone thinks they don't break,they better think twice.I would check it before going hunting.

quote:

I could do better offhand especially if it is not -20 degrees(-30 windchill) and not having watery eyes.

I have hunted Saskatchewan at those temperatures. I do not envy you attempting to shoot consistently in those temps.

The replacement pin is a dowel pin.It is a hardened piece of aloy steel, that is the toughest thing I've ever seen.It is precision made and has a very smooth surface.It is used in applications where an unbreakable pice of steel is required.It took some effort just to cut it with a bolt cutter.A 1/8th titanium drill bit cuts easily with a large bolt cutter and is also filable.This thing is something else. [/url][URL= ]job complete[/URL]

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
george
are you loading 000 buckshot in your lott cases?

4x5 inch, off the bench groups, are not bragging material

If you are reffering to the second taget pictured,those .308 shots are not part of a group.I fired one at a time then adjusted the sights to get to the final spot.

Why don't you be open and honest in your communication? You post scatter shot photos of pisspoor groups and then get pissy when you are called out for it.

there is NO SUCH THING as a "final zero" SHOT ... Really? As badly as you flinch, I am surprised that you continue to post this rubbish.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
george
are you loading 000 buckshot in your lott cases?

4x5 inch, off the bench groups, are not bragging material

If you are reffering to the second taget pictured,those .308 shots are not part of a group.I fired one at a time then adjusted the sights to get to the final spot.

Why don't you be open and honest in your communication? You post scatter shot photos of pisspoor groups and then get pissy when you are called out for it.

there is NO SUCH THING as a "final zero" SHOT ... Really? As badly as you flinch, I am surprised that you continue to post this rubbish.

A nice, considered, polite reply.

I went to the range last week intent on getting more answers to the offhand and off the bench POI difference question.I also wanted to zero my rifles once and for all.I showed up with over a couple of hundred rds fifty of which were lott solids and softs.It was a beautiful,spring-like day and I was lucky to have the rifle range all to myself.I shot all the rounds offhand and studied my targets carefully.I do not flinch when I shoot,and have an offhand hold that will shoot groups within a couple of inches out two 200yds-not to mention shoulders strong enough to have won the flexed arm hang competition over all of my elementary and high shcool mates.I found that,aside from my shots pulling to the right a bit while shooting offhand, there is no difference in shooting off the bench compared to shooting offhand as I thought.Differences in POI occurs because the eye or your eyesight, does not see the target in the same place,each time at such distances.Here is proof.This is a 100yd 308 offhand target.The two large groups,to the left and right of the orange circle are groups shot from the offhand position.This rifle groups exacltly the same size off the bench(4-5 inches).I am going to swith to 168's and hope it does better.[URL= ]100yds offhand/opensights[/URL] The group below the bottom left square,was shot off the bench.There are times when the rifle groups in the same spot when it is shot offhand and off the bench.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

Ya ever get the feeling someone is messing with us?

Here is a lightning fast,3 shot,one hole group on a 25yd charging lion.[URL= ]some good shooting[/URL]

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

Ya ever get the feeling someone is messing with us?

Pretty much every post...

I ain't touchin it. . . . . . . .


O, except to say open sights should be sighted dead on at 60 yards.

This thread=FAIL.

My group is small you can't even see it....

John

I was at the range again today and was shooting my 308 offhand.While reloading for this session,and measuring my cases,I was surprised to find my cases way over trim-to length.These are new Winchester cases that have only been shot three times with very mild loads.The case necks were also not square.I decided to trim them from 2.0135 to 2.0085.The groups shrunk from 6+ inches to a half inch at 100yds.When I got back from the range,I opened a bag of new cases and measured them.The new cases were over 2.0100. Here is an offhand group I shot with the trimmed cases.This group was shot during a wet and windy snowstorm and would have been much tighter otherwise.[URL= ]100yds offhand/open sights[/URL]

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
george
are you loading 000 buckshot in your lott cases?

4x5 inch, off the bench groups, are not bragging material

If you are reffering to the second taget pictured,those .308 shots are not part of a group.I fired one at a time then adjusted the sights to get to the final spot.

Why don't you be open and honest in your communication? You post scatter shot photos of pisspoor groups and then get pissy when you are called out for it.

there is NO SUCH THING as a "final zero" SHOT ... Really? As badly as you flinch, I am surprised that you continue to post this rubbish.

A nice, considered, polite reply.

Actually, if you read shootaway's posts.. or the quotes of them BEFORE he deletes them, it REALLY was a nice, polite reply ..

This guy is either the village simpleton OR a fanastic liar ...

perhaps YOU should understand the whole question before making replies ...;]\

If your post was an irony on shootaway, i am sorry for snapping at you .. if you are in shoo's defense.. you will soon be sending me a PM, explaining that you had given him the benefet of a doubt.. and where wrong in doing so.

the guy deserves posts like "j's, flinchy, you can't hit the side of a barn, from IN it"

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was at the range again today and was shooting my 308 offhand.While reloading for this session,and measuring my cases,I was surprised to find my cases way over trim-to length.These are new Winchester cases that have only been shot three times with very mild loads.The case necks were also not square.I decided to trim them from 2.0135 to 2.0085.The groups shrunk from 6+ inches to a half inch at 100yds.When I got back from the range,I opened a bag of new cases and measured them.The new cases were over 2.0100. Here is an offhand group I shot with the trimmed cases.This group was shot during a wet and windy snowstorm and would have been much tighter otherwise.[URL= ]100yds offhand/open sights[/URL]

6inch groups to 1/2" groups, HOW CAN YOU TELL from this shotgun pattern? really, this is 00buck at 20 yards, aint it? it sure as heck aint a 308 "group"

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Here is a lightning fast,3 shot,one hole group on a 25yd charging lion.[URL= ]some good shooting[/URL]

except those are 22 caliber holes.. not 45, nor 307... might even be .177 pellet shots...

14" "groups"
flinchie, you are a liar .. plain and simple.. you can't even keep up consisten LIES .. you whine about how much shooting 20 rounds of lott bruises your shoulde,r such that you have to rest for MONTHS .. and then say that 200 rounds is the useful life of a .458

PICK A LIE AND STICK TO IT

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I went to the range last week intent on getting more answers to the offhand and off the bench POI difference question.I also wanted to zero my rifles once and for all.I showed up with over a couple of hundred rds fifty of which were lott solids and softs.It was a beautiful,spring-like day and I was lucky to have the rifle range all to myself.I shot all the rounds offhand and studied my targets carefully.I do not flinch when I shoot,and have an offhand hold that will shoot groups within a couple of inches out two 200yds-not to mention shoulders strong enough to have won the flexed arm hang competition over all of my elementary and high shcool mates.I found that,aside from my shots pulling to the right a bit while shooting offhand, there is no difference in shooting off the bench compared to shooting offhand as I thought.Differences in POI occurs because the eye or your eyesight, does not see the target in the same place,each time at such distances.Here is proof.This is a 100yd 308 offhand target.The two large groups,to the left and right of the orange circle are groups shot from the offhand position.This rifle groups exacltly the same size off the bench(4-5 inches).I am going to swith to 168's and hope it does better.[URL= ]100yds offhand/opensights[/URL] The group below the bottom left square,was shot off the bench.There are times when the rifle groups in the same spot when it is shot offhand and off the bench.

"oh, can you do any better jeffe?"
well, yess
458 ar, load dev


416 ar, cold, raining, low power scope

No fair, Jeff. You kept your eyes open!

George

LOL.. that i did!
lets go hunting!