The Accurate Reloading Forums
Terminal Bullet Performance
11 February 2011, 23:50
michael458Terminal Bullet Performance
quote:
Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Michael458,
Have you received the "Big Boy Bullets" yet?
Just askin'
The "Brown Bus Man" is riding around with them somewhere right this second! I expect them, an hour ago--But..........? Where is the Brown Bus Man???
M
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
11 February 2011, 23:59
someoldguyquote:
Just a theory from a rank amateur.
You didn't ask me, 465, but I like your theory.
What I understood from reading Rathcoombe's page was that FN bullets have sort of a wedge-type splitting effect that usually makes a wound track larger than caliber. If I understand correctly, about the only time when a bullet might make a wound track equal to caliber is if a wadcutter type is used. (Which is almost never the case.) Of course, I realize in living tissue you have to account for some "closing" of the wound track because of tissue being somewhat elastic.
_________________________
Glenn
12 February 2011, 00:39
ledvmquote:
I am not sure that I would say that it is imperfect but you need to be very careful how you translate those results to performance on animals.
Test media is "imperfect" in replication of the anatomy and behavioral characteristics of the mammalian body.
I am sure the media used is perfect test media in regards to the quality of the media itself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
12 February 2011, 00:50
ledvmWe should work on making a stardardized medium with fiber added to the gel to simulate collagen in tissue and some bone-like layers added.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
12 February 2011, 01:25
someoldguyquote:
We should work on making a stardardized medium with fiber added to the gel to simulate collagen in tissue and some bone-like layers added.
The problem I could see with this is that you'd need a different set of media for each application. For instance, for big game you'd need a different "mixture" than you would need for terminal ballistics testing against humans. Dangerous game might need another "mixture" altogether. One application obviously wouldn't easily "translate" to the other.
_________________________
Glenn
12 February 2011, 01:49
Cross LI feel that at some point we can accept a generalization based on prepoderance of evidence and proceed to utilize the most efficient forms found to this point. Imperical results in the field will either verify or invalidate the hypothesized results.
In other words-time to go hunting, boys
Truly I dont feel that we need mathematical proof that one type or another works in such and such a way. Elmer Keith arrived at something very similar to the BBW #13 lo those many years ago in Idaho. If 465H&H wants to hunt with RN then so be it. In the words of my Southern ancestors:
Every man has the right to go to Hell in his own fashion.
Use what make you confident-
SSR
12 February 2011, 03:18
michael458How 465HH has shot so many round nose solids through all sorts of game and has never seen one veer off course is beyond my understanding. Don't get me wrong, 465HH, I believe you, as I know you are an honorable man and I know you would never tell it any other way, you have been a lucky chap as well! I have personally seen round nose solids turn in animal tissue, as much as 90 degrees and out. More than once. But I have also seen them do well enough to kill a few of my own elephants and buffalo as well. I have also heard many other stories about round noses failing to penetrate in a straight line, many of them from several of the guys that are looking in right now. So they will in fact veer off course in animal tissue some of the time.
That's the entire point of the test work, the test medium, and having a medium like the one that I use. They veer off course 100% of the time in my test medium, while a good flat nose solid drives straight if it has a proper nose profile, meplat size. You will also find the round nose will veer off in any and all aqueous materials. Let me ask this, what composition are most animals? A percentage of "aqueous" material perhaps?
I can tell you of a medium that a round nose will drive straight in every time! Want to know? Wood! Take any stack of wood, pack it tight, round nose bullets drive straight! Why? The wood is dense enough that it does not allow the bullet to turn. Good test material? No, it's not aqueous.
Like I said, what is successful in the test medium has proven to be successful in the field, many times over. For myself, I trust the test work, that's why I do it. Test, success, take it to the field, my chance of success is far higher than it would have been in the field, where success is even more important!
Next!
Michael
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 03:21
michael458DOC---Brown Bus Man paid me a visit late this afternoon!
Guess what I got!
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 03:53
CCMDocquote:
Originally posted by michael458:
DOC---Brown Bus Man paid me a visit late this afternoon!
Guess what I got!
NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
12 February 2011, 03:54
CCMDoc
NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
12 February 2011, 03:54
CCMDoc
NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
12 February 2011, 03:56
drewhenrytntquote:
Guess what I got!
Something in the bigger than .599 flavor??!!
We Band of Bubbas
N.R.A Life Member
TDR Cummins Power All The Way
Certified member of the Whompers Club
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:02
michael458I am going to use the .620 NonCon HPs in the morning!
As a Coffee Mug!!!!
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:04
michael458A photo does not come close to telling you what these are like!!!!
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:08
michael458I will tell you something else as well---Roll around naked in a pile of these, get one of them stuck up your arse you will damn sure scream about it!!!!
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:08
sroseI cna't wait to get my hands on some of those .585 coffee cups!
12 February 2011, 04:09
michael458quote:
Originally posted by srose:
I cna't wait to get my hands on some of those .585 coffee cups!
I need you to figure out how to put a handle on one for me!
HELP
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:11
michael458I was going to take a comparison photo with one of the CEB BBW#13 458 Solids next to one of the .620s, but it fell down in the .620 NonCon and I lost it in there?
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:15
srosequote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Originally posted by srose:
I cna't wait to get my hands on some of those .585 coffee cups!
I need you to figure out how to put a handle on one for me!
You know me! I can do that!
HELP
12 February 2011, 04:17
MacifejDo you have a .620" bore banger in that collection of Pop-Guns at your place ...??
12 February 2011, 04:22
michael458quote:
Originally posted by Macifej:
Do you have a .620" bore banger in that collection of Pop-Guns at your place ...??
No J, I do not. I got these for Doc and the guys! But I like those bullets so good, I am not really sure if I am going to actually let anyone have them?
HEH HEH!!!--I do like bullets, don't really have to have a rifle for these, I bet I can chunk one of them fast enough to hurt like hell!
M
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:26
michael458600 B&M--4.5 lbs, 35 inches overall, 16 inch barrel? 900 gr CEB BBW#13 at 2100 fps ought to do!
Hmmmmmm?
Just need a Winchester Big enough is all!
Hey, speaking of that, CrossL has joined the B&M Family! I have been busy as hell making sure his new Winchester M70 416 B&M Blue/Ultimate stock is RTG (Ready to Go). Getting his brass made for him, getting all his stuff together, making sure rifle is 100%, all those sorts of things! CrossL is going to be busting all sorts of things for us with this, and some BBW#13 NonCons soon!
Michael
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:30
MacifejWell high time you get something bigger than .500 ... course it might not be a Winchester.
12 February 2011, 04:54
michael458Macj
Just have to scratch Winchester on it somewhere to keep me happy!
Look here, where the hell is DOC now? Is he in shock--Posted the photos of the bullets now, have them in hand, he is going to have them next week--and now where is he?????
LOL
Michael
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 04:57
boom stickYou can do a Winchester short action 2.25" single stack 600 using Nyati brass. 620 B&M and those 600 woodleigh soft bullets are stubby as hell.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=48920512 February 2011, 05:13
Cross LMichael,
Throw one of those big boys in my care package.I just have to see one in person.
416 B&M
SSR
12 February 2011, 05:33
CCMDocquote:
Originally posted by michael458:
I will tell you something else as well---Roll around naked in a pile of these, get one of them stuck up your arse you will damn sure scream about it!!!!
Damn you Michael!!!
I've been trying to extract from my right nostril the 40mg Lipitor tablet I was in process of swallowing when I read this!
Let's not go down that road again - I am not interested in rehashing the things I have extracted from other people's orifices after they "sat down too fast while naked".
Now that you have had a chance to see a
real projectile, what are your impressions?
More importantly when can I get some?
NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003
Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow
12 February 2011, 05:34
someoldguyquote:
Ask ALF
On second thought...
Have fun, everybody!
_________________________
Glenn
12 February 2011, 05:57
Cross LGlenn,
How long is it going to take me to live that one down?
SSR
12 February 2011, 08:49
drewhenrytntThose 825s look cats meow! How many cats could curl up in that hole?
We Band of Bubbas
N.R.A Life Member
TDR Cummins Power All The Way
Certified member of the Whompers Club
12 February 2011, 16:39
I Bin Therbeforquote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
quote:
Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
I think that your statement is technically correct but I had to repeat Physics 103 three times before I passed so I am not the one to ask.
I suspect that all things being equal such as velocity, caliber, bullet shape and construction as well as stability the bullet with the higher SD also has more momentum thus a greater ability overcome resistance.
465H&H
Momentum is the mass times the velocity. How does sectional density contribute to momentum?
Sd is a simple way to describe the difference in two bullets of equal diameter but different weights or to compare different diameter bullets with different weights. It is a useful tool.
465H&H
From the work on this site, these are the factors which are important to penetration in order of importance:
Nose Profile—
Meplat size, % of meplat for caliber—
Twist Rate—
Velocity—
Construction—
SD
. The first six would have to be equal for the last, SD to be considered. If we add consideration bullet length in the 9.3 compairson, that may well be more important than SD. As the thread started comparing two specific bullets in 9.3 which are NOT equal in all six, or in length, your comment about the value of SD in determining penetration is open to question.
12 February 2011, 16:57
someoldguyquote:
Glenn,
How long is it going to take me to live that one down?
Aw, shuckins. You've already lived it down. Good to see you out from behind that couch.
_________________________
Glenn
12 February 2011, 17:13
michael458quote:
Originally posted by CCMDoc:
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
I will tell you something else as well---Roll around naked in a pile of these, get one of them stuck up your arse you will damn sure scream about it!!!!
Damn you Michael!!!
I've been trying to extract from my right nostril the 40mg Lipitor tablet I was in process of swallowing when I read this!
Let's not go down that road again - I am not interested in rehashing the things I have extracted from other people's orifices after they "sat down too fast while naked".
Now that you have had a chance to see a
real projectile, what are your impressions?
More importantly when can I get some?
HEH HEH HEH----
Hey, I take the 40mg Lipitor as well--those are kinda big, at least it's not the 80mg!
My Impressions? VERY IMPRESSIVE! Gorgeous bullets. I bet you kinda have an idea--You know those Magic J bullets you have? When MacJ sent some .510s to me, they were excellent looking! Hated to shoot them they look so good! Well, these CEBs are exactly the same, You gonna want to carry one around in your pocket and rub and admire every once and awhile!
When can you get some? They are already boxed and headed out on fed ex Monday!
Michael
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 17:14
michael458IBT
Correct! In my opinion!
M
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
12 February 2011, 18:23
ledvmquote:
I have seen and others have reported on the cutting affect of FN bullets in game compared to RN bullets. If the cutting is due to the FN how do these bullets cut tissue so cleanly if FN bullets form a cavitation bubble? The bubble pressure would be pushing the tissue away from the bullets nose, wouldn't it?.
The cavitation bubble (if one really forms) forms secondary to the pressure wave moving through tissue which does not occur until some time FOLLOWING impact. Therefore one would expect the FP to cut initially. IE: forming the entrance hole you have described.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM
A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House
No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
12 February 2011, 19:16
465H&Hquote:
. The first six would have to be equal for the last, SD to be considered. If we add consideration bullet length in the 9.3 compairson, that may well be more important than SD. As the thread started comparing two specific bullets in 9.3 which are NOT equal in all six, or in length, your comment about the value of SD in determining penetration is open to question.
IBT,
I belive I said exactly what you did in the first sentnce. If you add bullet length in 9.3, then you also increase SD. Would a monometal 9.3 (longer bullet) penetrate farther than a lead core steel jacketed bullet of the same weight(shorter)bullet. Assuming nose shape etc. were the same. I think not.
465H&H
12 February 2011, 19:19
465H&Hquote:
Originally posted by michael458:
How 465HH has shot so many round nose solids through all sorts of game and has never seen one veer off course is beyond my understanding. Don't get me wrong, 465HH, I believe you, as I know you are an honorable man and I know you would never tell it any other way, you have been a lucky chap as well! I have personally seen round nose solids turn in animal tissue, as much as 90 degrees and out. More than once. But I have also seen them do well enough to kill a few of my own elephants and buffalo as well. I have also heard many other stories about round noses failing to penetrate in a straight line, many of them from several of the guys that are looking in right now. So they will in fact veer off course in animal tissue some of the time.
That's the entire point of the test work, the test medium, and having a medium like the one that I use. They veer off course 100% of the time in my test medium, while a good flat nose solid drives straight if it has a proper nose profile, meplat size. You will also find the round nose will veer off in any and all aqueous materials. Let me ask this, what composition are most animals? A percentage of "aqueous" material perhaps?
I can tell you of a medium that a round nose will drive straight in every time! Want to know? Wood! Take any stack of wood, pack it tight, round nose bullets drive straight! Why? The wood is dense enough that it does not allow the bullet to turn. Good test material? No, it's not aqueous.
Like I said, what is successful in the test medium has proven to be successful in the field, many times over. For myself, I trust the test work, that's why I do it. Test, success, take it to the field, my chance of success is far higher than it would have been in the field, where success is even more important!
Next!
Michael
Michael,
You have mentioned having seen RN bullets veer off course in game before. What brand, shape and metal were these bullets. I don't remember you ever detailing that info.
Always meant to ask this but kept forgetting.
465H&H
12 February 2011, 19:36
hughmanIf, as some have suggested, there is a cutting effect with a FN bullet, then would penetration be improved by having a sharp edge on the meplat?
Hugh
12 February 2011, 19:49
sroseHugh,
No a sharp edge actually decreases penetration. Back in terminals Michael and I tested this on the #13s. A radius edge goes deeper. I'll try to find the page but Michael might be able to find it quicker.
Sam
