I want opinons... With CZ making 505s, how do you feel the popularity of 505s(rifles, bullets and brass) will be overall? I find CZ taking quite a bold move with the 505... even a wildcat like the 500 a-2 would and could be supported by ammunition and bullet manufactures better. Do you feel the 505 would be more popular if it had a .510" bullet diametr?

just some wandering questions I wanted to hear answers from some of my friends

smallfry

Firstly, I am only guessing

I don't think the 505 Gibs popularity (or lack of) is related to the bullet diameter. I think it is a brass situation and general difficulty associated with making the rifle.

In adddition I think the 505 is seem by many people as the classiest of the classy and much of that is lost if it is just slung together on some rifle to go bang.

I think another problem with it is the case capacity is to big for the Fed 215 primer to allow reduced loads without fillers. So without fillers you are using 130 grains of powders like the 4831 for 2200 or so and lots of boom nd recoil. On the other hand, the smaller 460 Wby just needs 85 grains of 4064, 500 Hornady and does just over 2000, shoots well and is mild to shoot.

Having said all of that I think it will go quite well for CZ USA. The only problem I see (and no disrespect to CZ owners) is that it is priced a lot higher than were the CZ 416s but on the other hand it is still in the shit category. In other words to expensive but not expensive enough.

But I think there will be enough buyers, even those who just want a working rifle on the 505 case so they can make 416/505s etc.

I think CZ USA is aslo trying to lift the image of the CZ range as a whole by this move. I think they have started a separare web page Safari Classics. What does have me beat is why the 416 Rigby has not been included.

Anyway, having said all of that, I think it will go OK and we might see Norma bring out brass for it.

One thing which I think would help it (and assuming reasonable brass) is that if they brought out a modern factory load like RWS did for the 404. Not so much because such a load would be better but it would make it the most powerful factroy bolt action whereas the original loads are about the counterpart of a loaded back 460 Wby.

By the way, I must tell you that my predictions on these sort of things are usually 100% wrong and I have an almost perfect score on that area

I thought initially before the CZ USA 450 Rigby we would have seen a lot of 450 Rigbys on the forum because of easy conversion from the CZ 416 Rigby. But again it could be low level factory ammo. You need to explain to your friends that it is really as powerful as the 460 and a lot more powerful than the 458 Lott.

Mike

I hope they go great and some make it to Australia as I want one

Let's look at this in the macro:

A lot of folks say "I would like to have ...(fill in the blank)" in life, but most people don't actually get off their butts and do anything about it. In the population of folks who would actually get a .505, like a quarter of them read this board. So yes, I am sure you will see movement on the .505 front by reading here. But in the macro, there will be no increase in usage of the .505. There are many reasons for this.

One, (I really hope this is taken the right way) a lot of people who want a .505 understand the difference between any gun that goes "bang" and a fine rifle. Face it –CZ makes cheap rifles. I don’t mean that they are just inexpensive, they are cheap. Not to say that anything is wrong with them for some people, but a lot of people who understand fine rifles want something several rungs up the ladder from a CZ, even in their new “Safari†grade. CZ does a great job of building a functional rifle to a low price point, but that does not appeal to many people out there who would want a .505. And look at the main complaint about the new Safari Model-it costs too much! Come on guys, it is like wanting a Ferrari for the price of a Camero. And the problem with the Safari is that is neither fish nor foul. It is a very small step above a Camero, but no where near a Ferrari. The Camero crowd complains that it costs too much, and the Ferrari crowd sees it for what it is-an ugly woman with a little lip stick and maybe a touch of eye-liner. Can they be made into a fine rifle? Sure, but it costs $$$ to do it. They make an excellent base for a fine rifle.

Two, there is a fraction of the interest of big bores today as there was in the late ‘80s/early ‘90s. Kimber had their limited run of .505’s which sold, but did not change the outlook of the shooting public. Now granted, this is not a true apples-to-apples comparison, but it is close enough. The only real movement on the big bore front is CZ selling their cheap (and inexpensive) rifles. And when seen on the macro, it is not much movement. The .505 is out of the price range that most of the current CZ owners consider reasonable.

Three, ammo will never be very cheap. And I don’t know just how much will ever be available. I am sure it will be catalogued, but actual availability will always be dicey. I am sure it will be just like everything niche today- a customer will call and say that they saw something in a catalog and want you to order it for them. When you try to explain that many things listed in gun catalogs are really just theory, they want to argue with you. This despite the fact that you just got off the phone with the wholesaler and in fact, they don’t have what you want, have never actually had it, and have no idea when it will be in stock (though the answer is always next month). There is no way that demand for the round will grow too much. Reloading components are out there now and can be had with usually just a phone call. Many people, especially those who prefer the lower end rifles, do not want to reload. These same folks buying the low end rifles are pinching pennies and will freak out when they see ammo selling for $150-$200/box of 20.

Four, as a guy who used to ride bulls (and still practices extreme hobbies), I can assure you that the general public has an overwhelming aversion to pain. Tell them of extreme hobbies, and they look at you like you are crazy. Flash a loaded .505 round in front of them, and most would not touch off a shot. I am sure that of the few Camero rifles CZ sells, most will be sold with a partial box of ammo, having a couple less rounds than when they bought it used.

Five, it is not really practical. What will the Gibbs do that other rounds won’t do? Other than destroy your central nervous system, not much. At least a .375 is very versatile, and the .404 or .416 has a lot of dual-use roles. The .505 is and extreme way to kill a 120# whitetail. Not that anything is wrong with it, but it makes it harder to justify for folks with a Camero budget (and their spouse!!!).

All of this said, I am in the process of building a .505 for myself right now. I have wanted one since I was in high school and have started putting mine together. Of course given the way I complete personal projects, it will still be a few years before it is ready for the field. As I have posted before, the .505 is one of the “nichest†of all niche markets. CZ making a couple of cheap rifles will not change that fact. But what difference does it make? If you want one, get it.

Agree in principal; especially the ammo cost. I'll be surprised if any of it gets below $175 a box. Even reloaders will balk when they see the cost of gearing up to load the first time with 3-1/4 inch cases and 1-1/4 inch dies.

That said, in a properly stocked rifle the 505 is no different than the others in its energy class. Unfortunately, CZ will probably put it in the little miniature stock they use for the 375 and it will hurt like hell.

If they want to sell these rifles to the public at large, they will need to work with Norma and agree on underpowered loads that make the uninitiated feel like they shot Thor's hammer without actually having done so. That will, of course, offend the small group you refer to as the Ferrari guys and rightfully so. Can't have it both ways.

cz makes an inexpensive rifle. if the trigger where normal, i would have little complaints.

the group that WANTS a couple rungs up the ladder knows their actions start at 2500... and the rifle goes for 10k...

a cz, listing at 1600, and dies for 170 bucks (ch4d) and 50 rounds of brass going for ~200, .. well, for less than the price of a "classy" action, one has a 505.

BUT, 1 or 2 bucks a bullet will even keep hardcores' like me from shooting one a bunch.

add that it's 50 cents for powder, you are at 2-3 bucks a round.... reloaded.

that puts you at premuim 300 wizbang per round.


470 NE is still 240 a box... 416 rigby is 140 (120 on sale) and 577 are 30 bucks a bang, retail.

marc,
I'll say this, if i can buy a searcy 470 double for 9500, there's NO WAY i'd buy a 10k bolt gun... am i cheap? hmm, yeah... does it matter that the buff is whacked with a brevex mauser gibbs or a CZ? HELL NO.

those that want a "quality" 505 gibbs already have them... those that want one that a fella can afford are lining up. it's simple econmics, cz wouldn't do it if they didn't see a market

jeffe

Right on Jeffeosso

I for one cannot afford a custom built rifle, so the CZ's are up my alley. CZ's may not be the best rifle, but it allows us guys with a wife, kids, and mortgages to shoot big bores in calibers like .505 Gibbs.

Not sure about the american market, whcih is of course the real market, but for Australia if we can get them there would probably be a few bought just for general blasting-in the same way a bigbore gets bought here with no intention of using on DG.
This is probably only if they become a stock item or whaever. If they stay special import it will be only a type of bigbore specialist interested.

Karl.

I doubt that it will set the world on fire, and it will be a whole lot more popular on these threads than out in the real world where it isn't needed or really wanted for the most part.

Most of them will be bought for sitting in a gun closet to be shown as "take a look at this big boy". Others by curious buyers which means that some will quickly hit the used gun market due to the horrible recoil...and I assure you that one never needs to check the bore on these uused 505 caliber guns for they are never
shot out, kinda like a 44 magnun, they both always have good bores regardless of the outside... !!!

But that is nothing more than my personal opinion...could be wrong.

CZ is charging so much more for these than the "standard" models, but how do they justify it?

They should have taken this opportunity to upgrade the rifle, by doing the following:

1. Straightening the bolt handle and filling in the hollow knob.
2. Adding a shroud mounted safety like the Mauser or Model 70.
3. Repositioning and simplifying the trigger.
4. Going to a classically English patterned stock, with nice checkering, oval cheek piece, ebony forend tip and steel grip cap.
5. Adding a barrel band front sight and a barrel band mounted front sling swivel.

Then they would have had a pace-setter and it would have been worth the extra money they're charging, plus a little bit more. JMHO.

mr lexma is 100% right you have to make the gun look a little englishy in order to get a few more dollars and make it appeal to those who want an expensive looking english rifle but not having to lay out 12k now someone posted that the gun would be about 1600$ if they just reshaped the stock put the barrel band sling swivel keep there express sights they would be doing what whitworth did with there zastava actioned rifles but they would be able to get 2500$ in my opinion, for starters it would look better than the ruger just because of the magazine box,it would be a poor mans ultimate big bore ...............paul

Jeff
Don't know where the .470 talk came from. Seems out of the blue to me so I guess I am missing something. If you want a .470, call Searcy in the morning and get one on order. They sell them every day.

The question was will CZ making a couple of cheap (and inexpensive) rifles in .505 change the shooting world. No, I will bet a lot of money that it won't. Would a bore dimension of .510" make any difference? That would be one of the worst decisions to be made by a gunmaker in quite some time. It would serve no purpose and would be a disaster as far as ammo and components go.

If people stand in line to buy them, trust me, it will be a very, very short line. This is the real question asked-how many will sell? Not many.

And yes, people with a mortgage, wife, and kids can and do buy custom rifles every day of the year. These are the guys who focus on a result and do what it takes to get it. As I wrote in my original post, the overwhelming majority of people will not do what it takes. Most people like to talk about what they want, not go out and get what they want. Many folks will say they want a CZ .505, but not many will buy one. It was like on the medium bore forum they were crying about CZ dropping the 7x57 because it is the best round and one of the best rifles. After about 4 pages of bitching posts, I asked 2 simple questions: 1. how many of these people had a CZ 7x57 and 2. how many of these people even owned a 7x57 of any make. One person on that board had a 7x57 CZ and only a handful had a 7x57 at all. Yet sooooooo many people were crying because it was gone. Will be the same with the .505, only more so. Folks will say they want one, but only a small handful will ever get one.

Here people are on this thread again complaining about what they get for the money. The only way to get what you want is to have it made to order. The CZ can make an excellent base for a fine rifle. All it takes is money. If you don’t have enough, go out and get more money. It honestly is that simple. People do it every single day. I am not saying this being a smart ass. Rather, I am saying it hoping some one will be motivated to go out and get what they want-be it a cheap .505, expensive .505, .470, Ferrari, Marco Polo, whatever. You are responsible for what you can buy.

Regardless of what people do to improve their lives one thing is sure-CZ making a few cheap .505’s will not change the shooting world’s outlook on the caliber. This would be doubly so if they did something totally insane like make it with a .510†bore.

Maybe more of these 505s will sell than many people think.

The 460 Wby has been quite a good seller for Wby and is considerably dearer than the CZ 505 and according to many of the people on this forum both cartridge and rifle are pieces of shit ranking somewhere just under Rem 700

Mike

Might as well give my two cents. I think CZ probably knows more about there business/gun sales than most of us do, sure enough more than I do. My guess they have have enough maketing data to feel it makes sense to make 505's, 404 and etc. I also think they listen to the people buying guns.

I also think they may not make the slickest guns, but they funtion and are a fair price for what you get.

They also answer the phone when you call them and what few parts I've needed they had in stock, thats worth something to me. As far as the 510 bore, I doubt they have even heard of it.

They must have had enough requests for Lott's, 404's and 505's to think its worth doing. And I also think they are trying to make just a few people that want those specific cals happy, not set the world on fire with sale in those cals.

They make a pretty good rifle for the money and they may not be the slickest, but they seem to feed pretty good and go bang.

Even if CZ does not sell a lot of .505's, they will get a lot of publicity! And that is free advertising which can improve their sales of other rifles.

I won't get one. Likely I'll never shoot an elephant and if I ever get the chance, either my .404 or .450 Rigby will do just fine. Yeah, it would be cool to put in the gunsafe and haul out for company so I can accumulate more macho points. However, I have gotta ask just how many dangerous game rifles you can justify. Still, I wish them luck. My rifles are for falling down with, getting dirty, running into thornbush and the like. For that kind of work a CZ will do just fine and for all the complaints, they are reliable. On DG as in combat, reliability, reliability, reliability. So I could forgo buffalo horn gripcaps, my family crest engraved on the bridges, warthog ivory night front sights and all that lot so long as the monster kept on going and going and going and . . .

Gringo,

Yeah, all the whining about the rifle is really irrelevant. CZ is making these on an order-only basis, so what are they out except for advertising?

They could make the CZ like WVFred's 505 Jeffery (for $10,0000-$12,000???) but how many guys would buy them? About the same number that buy $10,000 rifles now.

If you take a Mod.70 and do the least conversion to something else, it is $2500, minimum. If someone wants a 505, it is still the cheapest way to go.

If I could change one thing, it would be the bolt handle, as even CZ recognizes it is not the best.

It is just too much gun for me.

Will,

I agree, and I also agree its probably more gun than I can handle.

Robert Wilson came up then carrying his short, ugly, shockingly big-bored .505 Gibbs and grinning.

"Come on," he said. "Your gun-bearer has your Springfield and the big gun. Everything’s in the car. Have you solids?"

The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber
by Ernest Hemingway
http://www.geocities.com/cyber_explorer99/hemingwaymacomber.html

Anyone who's ever read this short story will probably want one! But, I agree with what Ray said earlier: "Most of them will be bought for sitting in a gun closet to be shown as 'take a look at this big boy'. Others by curious buyers which means that some will quickly hit the used gun market due to the horrible recoil..." Still, there is just something romantic in the name "505 Gibbs". As Michael McIntosh said in one of his books about big bores, "These are the guns that conjure visions".

-Bob F.

When I read Jeffe's post, I saw that he noted the relatively high price of .505 bullets, but NOT that he suggested the bore diameter should be .510" instead. Surely it would be possible to pick on him for things he actually wrote....

Sometimes it is a good thing to do without the limitations of sufficient knowledge, so I do wonder if (Corbin, for example) it would be possible to press the various .510" bullets through a die and obtain .505's reasonably accurate out to 100 yards.

As to going the other way, I think the .51 Gibbs is a pretty smart upgrade on the .505 Gibbs bore diameter and chambering, but you'd have to get a .510" barrel and a reamer, and by then you could have bought or squoze a lot of bullets in or to .505".....

Should CZ make .51 Gibbs? No, I'm afraid not. We're not exactly talking .204 Ruger here, and I can't even figure that out. It's wonderful to live in a period that sees the new RUM cartridges, the new WSMs, the new SAUMs (?), and the new WSSMs, but few of these cartridges will survive the test of 40 years or so. One of the .51/.460's would make more sense.

So CZ is selling the glorious historical .505 Gibbs chambering, as a glorious historical chambering, and you will either buy one because you want a .505 Gibbs, or you won't.

Me, I wish it was .51", but it is impossible to turn the clock back, so if you want to make or sell or own .505 Gibbs, it is only .505 Gibbs if it is .505, and not .510", and that explains why CZ is making .505s and not .510s. It is not a tool so much as it is a collectible.

I prefer to ignore for the moment the motivations that there may be for restocking, either to a better piece of wood, or an unbroken piece of wood, which in either case would make the collectible no longer "original."

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Jeff
Don't know where the .470 talk came from. Seems out of the blue to me so I guess I am missing something. If you want a .470, call Searcy in the morning and get one on order. They sell them every day.

Marc,
interesting... i listed butch's 9500 as a "cheap" double, as you call the CZ,, after all, a QUALITY double can't be had for under 50k... if one follows that reasoning.

The 470 is an example of a classic african round, in a "cheap" gun, that is available... and it's still insanely expensive to feed factory ammo.

That Cz has made MORE 416 RIGBYs that all the other makers ever to chamber them is a hallmark of their marketing. Expect that more gibbs will wear the CZ label than all of them in existance today.

This is a simple fact... around 1903, ford rolled out a $900 CAR... simpley STUPID said the competition... a car that ANY WORKING MAN can afford? Why, no one would buy one...


here we are, 100 years later...

jeffe

I havent' looked lately, but I think the price for .505" and .510" bullets is the same. The only benefit of .510" is a bit more options, and maybe easier to come by. You can draw .510" bullets down to .505", but when bullets are drawn, the core has a tendancy to size more then the jacket, and hence be slightly loose fit. It also takes one serious mofo press to pull the operation off. So for a $500 or more investment, you could get nearly a lifetime supply of real .505" bullets.

A 510 gibbs is plain silly. If you're looking for a practicle 50 cal, you build a 500 a-square, if you want a hot 50 cal, you get Rob's 600 OK brass and neck it down. If you want a 505 gibbs, then you get a 505.

I don't know didly about marketing. Most of the 505's sold will be bought for bragging rights. There will be a few hardcore nuts that actually shoot them. The 458 lott is the end of line when it comes to "practical" big bores.