To Macd37 - you are quote correct - would not stand at 200 yards with anyone shooting at me with anything unless absolutely neccessary. the point I was making, and I believe it to be true, is that every double I have ever seen is designed for the close in situation. It is simply too difficult to calibrate two barrels out to more than a hundred yards or so. You would need two scopes... You might get lucky with a gun or two but in my opinion it is just luck and that's all. the gun should be used for what it is designed for. Many rangers and PH's who can't afford doubles carry them and for good reason - a presumably quicker second shot - presumably - but I bet none of them carry them as a distance rifle... Ask them...

They are stopping rifles.

correct in the last post "quote correct" with just "correct"

thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Berger:
To Macd37 - you are quote correct - would not stand at 200 yards with anyone shooting at me with anything unless absolutely neccessary. the point I was making, and I believe it to be true, is that every double I have ever seen is designed for the close in situation. It is simply too difficult to calibrate two barrels out to more than a hundred yards or so. You would need two scopes... You might get lucky with a gun or two but in my opinion it is just luck and that's all. the gun should be used for what it is designed for. Many rangers and PH's who can't afford doubles carry them and for good reason - a presumably quicker second shot - presumably - but I bet none of them carry them as a distance rifle... Ask them...

They are stopping rifles.

Berger, first, let me qualify myself here! I have been shooting, loading for, and building double rifles for near fifty years, and have racked up a little knowledge about them. I don't claim to know it all, where double rifles are concerened, but I'm certainly not a novice on them either, and I can shoot them beyond "100yds or so".

you are absolutely correct that the best use of a double rifle,especially the very large bores, and where they shines is right off the end of the barrels, but that is true of a bolt rifle designed for stopping as well. That is the way most pros use them, and in that case the loads don't have to be very well done, all they need is power, so any old factory round with the proper bullet will do. Loads the work in this 5 yds stopping, don't need to be good enough to shoot to regulation past 15 yds, and are usually good enough to still be usefull at "100yds or so". This is the reason some of the savyist PHs I know do not realize that the 1, 2, and 300 yd flip-ups were put there, by the makers for a reason. They are cut in at the makers range for the ranges engraved on them, and were filed in by the regulator at the makers range, and if the load is correct the rifle will shoot to these factory sights, at the ranges indicated on them.

There is a little fact that, even many people who have done a lot of hunting, and loading for double rifles, do not realize! That is, a double rifle is not regulated by the maker to cross at any distance, contrary to popular belief. If the load is correct for the rifle in hand, the center of the composite group of both rt, and lft, barrel will be in line with the sights no matter which one is flipped up! The center of the individule barrel's groups will be, basicly side by side, regardless of range from the muzzle. IOW, the center of a individual group of the rt barrel will be on the right of the POA at any range, and vice versa for the lft barrel. The center of the composite group of both barrels will be in line with the center of the POA on the target, and will only get larger as range gets longer, miantaining the same MOA, as far as the rifle shoots, as any rifle does.

Most folks who really don't think the rifle is capable of shooting worth beans past "100 yd, or so" never bother to find the proper load to match the regulation built in at the maker's range! The "100 yds or so" OPINION is shared by many very well known riflemen. That however, doesn't make it true. If you doubt what I said about the shooting of the DRSS members, I invite you to attend, and witness for your self. The BIG GAME RIFLE CLUB of Australia is also flush with members who can hit pigs at 200, and 300 yds consistantly, with double rifles. These people know more about double rifles than any single group in the world today, and if you visit Nitro Express Double rifle forum, they will tell you the same thing I've just told you! It, my friend, is not luck, but it is knowing what one is doing when loading for a double rifle! The regulation is already there, the load has to be found the matches the regulation. If one simply use any old ammo that is labeled as being for his double rifle then, you are correct, in your 100yd limit. Double rifles are a handloading proposition, at best,for two reasons, #1 if one is to find the proper load for his rifle, and #2 because the ammo is so expencive. #1 is the best reason in my book. Most people, I know, simply do not bother to find that load, because they have always been told that these double rifles are good to only "100 YDS OR SO!", and they believe it!

I've said my piece, and have nothing left in my ammo belt that will change a set mind, so I'll leave you guys to it!

Mac, you and some of your compatriots convinced me you are getting the performance you describe. The bad press doubles have received in the popular press is a real shame.

Dan

Macd37,

don't lower Elmer Keith to your family standards. Having been around the man before his stroke or diagnosis with diabetes in the late 70's, I watched him do some amazing things with a sixgun. Our R&G club here in SW Idaho has a 600yd military target butt system. For years, HiPower shooters got a lesson in pistol shooting from some 44 magnum Super Blackhawk shooters who could get into the "10"-ring at 600Y with three or four shots. You just have to want it, and be willing to devote the time and resources to replicate that shot. Don't mean to get cross, but to paraphrase the opening lines from "Tom Horn" you would have had to have stood on your daddy's shoulders to have been able to reach high enough to kiss his ass.
you might want to get out more and see what others are doing with revolvers these days.

regards,

A Keith fan who saw the Old Man perform

Eric & Clem got it right. If the rifle is to be used for dangerous game up close (and I emphasize up close...meaning 50 yards or less)
then a single standing rear sight is all that is needed. What isn't needed is a flip up leaf that was supposed to be laying flat instead of vertical. That said, if someone wants to use gradauted flip up leaves for plains game then go for it.

Rich Elliott

We all have diiferent tastes and preferances, personally the solders on parade express sights are not my favorite iron sights. I prefer a rear peep, for me they are quicker to get a sight picure with, and are my favorite sights when doing quick snap shoots, second best is a 2.5 powered scope. For me I like the longer sight plane and they are just faster, just look through the hole and line up the front bead.

Now with my preferences clearly stated rear peeps tend to be very limiting, they are generally set up at one range and left alone, and I am currently building up a 338-06 which I spent a lot of homework on trying to get both a rear peep and a scope incorporated into. I looked and looked and just couldn't find any suitable parts, and short of sitting down and designing and making a rear scope mount/rear peep sight combined I don't see any other method. This was one feature on the BRNO ZKK rifles I really liked the little pop up peep under the rear scope base, real slick in my opinion, perfect setup as I want the iron sight there as a backup to the scope, with a set of QD mounts this is my ideal setup, unfortuanatel as I said I didn't find any parts even close to this, and rolling concepts in my head how to make this happen, it almost needs to be done on a EDM, not something I think can be done easlily on my mill.

I am going to work on this some more, I know it can be done, its just working out the nasty details, and implemting it. My big problem currently is no real time to sit down and get started on this.

So in the end I defaulted back to the express style sight. Cosmetics played into this and I wasn't willing to slog this rifle together, I doubt I will use the three folding version though, I kinda see that the fourth leaf as the same as the old military mauser sights that went up to 800 and 1000 meters, I will never use them they are just there. For me I am thinking of the two-three sight version. One of my issues with the standing front leaf scope mounting, it is limiting on scope height, I like my scopes down tight on the bore if possible and tall scope rings don't fit my criteria. I am going to play around with a straight tube version, which I expect will work with the express sights but I wanted to use 40-42mm scope on this rifle. I am not really ready to sort out the scope details yet and when I scapped using the Mark X action on this build I am back at surface grinding stage of the build so that is at least six months out before I need to sort those details out, for now though I am commited to the express sight as I ordered my barrel set up for them.

I am surface grinding two actions, I haven't given up on the rear peep option but my guess is its at least 18 months away before I revisit that and see if I can't figure out a slick peep and scope setup.

Epilogue:

Well, after a little research and a lot of luck I was able to track down the fellow who purchased the gun from the original owner and found out about the sights. The sights (50, 100, 200 and 300 yard)are set up for shooting 270 gr. Winchester ammo. With 300 gr. Winchester ammo holding on target with the 300 yard blade is right on target at 200 yards.

This was a great exercise and I really enjoyed learning about the history of the rifle and getting to know the fellow who owned it before me. Turns out that I am the third owner and the gun, which looks like it seldom made it out of the safe, has taken a lot of big game all over the west, BC and Alaska, including a couple of very big moose and big bears. I feel even more strongly abut the rifle now, knowing what I know.

FYI: my next prokect is cleaning up a pre-64 M70 in 300 H&H that has seen a lot of honest, but hard use. I am thinking going with a Lyman 48 instead of a scope. Thoughts?

doublgun, try the rifle out with a few different loads with the various sight leaves. I will bet that it was set up to shoot right with something, Stegall knew what he was doing, by the way I also have a Stegall pre64 .375 butit has no iron sights at all, just the scope in a G&H sidemount.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Macd37,

don't lower Elmer Keith to your family standards. Having been around the man before his stroke or diagnosis with diabetes in the late 70's, I watched him do some amazing things with a sixgun. Our R&G club here in SW Idaho has a 600yd military target butt system. For years, HiPower shooters got a lesson in pistol shooting from some 44 magnum Super Blackhawk shooters who could get into the "10"-ring at 600Y with three or four shots. You just have to want it, and be willing to devote the time and resources to replicate that shot. Don't mean to get cross, but to paraphrase the opening lines from "Tom Horn" you would have had to have stood on your daddy's shoulders to have been able to reach high enough to kiss his ass.
you might want to get out more and see what others are doing with revolvers these days.


regards,

A Keith fan who saw the Old Man perform

Hey Idaho,with only 18 posts, you started off with a bang here! I think you either didn't have any manners, to start with, or have lost what you had, if your post is any indication of civility

Nobody is downing Elmer, and nobody said he couldn't hit a target at 600 yds with a 44 mag pistol! Hell I know lots of folks who shoot Silhouette around El Paso Texas,and La Union, New Mexico, 1000 yd clubs, that can do that. That doesn't change the fact that the 44 mag cartridge, out of a six, to 14 inch barrel, or in fact, any barrel, will have enough poop left at 600 yds to kill Muledeer reliably.

Anyone who shoots at a live target at 600 yds with a pistol is an idiot,with absolutely no respect for the animal,he's shooting at, Elmer included!

Elmer is one of my all time favorite writers, and men, but he was not a GOD, who could magicly change the balistics of the 44 mag at 600 yds, to give it enough energy to reliably take Muledeer!

What do you know about my family standards anyway? Not one damn thing!

As far as your quote goes, I'm only 5' 9" and you don't have to stand on anyone's shoulders to kiss my 70 yr old ass, you Idaho brush poper!

As to your suggestion, I've been "out" , and I know what is happening in the world today, and some of the things that didn't happen in the old days! I also know that there are a lot of piss heads on the net that never did anything but read what someone else did, would you be one of those?

Dropping names will get you nothing here!You have absolutely no idea who you are talking to on this forum, if you did, it might suprise you. Do you think, for one minute, you are the only one who has ever seen some of Elmer's feats? In fact,there are people who did some things that would have amazed Elmer,people right here on this forum? He didn't live in a vacuum you know, and he wasn't the only person who could shoot a handgun.

By the way welcome to Accurate reloading! You have a nice day, now, Ya heah!