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I have folding sights on my 375 M70. There is a fixed blade for 50-yards and folding for 100, 200 and 300. The gun is topped with a Leupold 1.5x-5x. Are the folding sights truly functional or are they usually on a gun as a decoration? Thanks, | ||
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Personally after over thirty years of hunting & i don't treat my guns like fine china although i am reasonably careful I have never needed backup irons. I think that it is more of a "chicken little" thing.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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I don't like them. Messing with the sights is the last thing I want to do while hunting. Dave | |||
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It seemss like I only see them on guns built for hunting in Africa and not other big bore rifles like you would see in Alaska. | |||
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Folding sights are a really, really bad idea. However, I have some extra ones that came off a Win M70 .375 if you want to buy them... | |||
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No, thank you. I already have them on my .375 M70. This is my first "big bore" rifle and I have been curious if people actually ever use them. Personally, I could see using the 50-yard fixed blade if I had to but I think the 200-yard and 300-yard would be REALLY pushing it. I am curious why you think they are a really, really bad idea. Thanks | |||
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Because inevitably the sight will end up folded down when you need it. The NECG Masterpiece adjustable is a good rear sight to use instead. Also, the factory Win. front sight on the M70 classic SS is rather cheesy and could be replaced with something sturdier. | |||
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Are there any aftermarket rear sights for the M70, appropriate for a big bore, that will fit in the factory dovetail? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Folding sights are used on many combat rifles like the M4, if sighted in and folded down any scope or holosite can be used with a clear view. They work very well on my m70 and won't get bumped off when folded down. It seems to me folding sights give the best of both worlds, other standing iron sights are simply in the way of a low powered scope,and pure vanity as stated earlier. | |||
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It seems like a 1 standing 1 folding rear site would be good if regulated for low power rounds to be used at the range.... In a DR at least. | |||
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500, no sight is worth crap unless it is of quality, iron, or glass! A Cheesy sight is less than worthless, also iron or glass. I will not have a rifle used for hunting DG that is not equipt with good iron sights! You break a scope with a trophy of a life time in front of you, and you don't have access to iron sights, just tell him to wait while you change scopes, or go back to the bakki to get another slick barreled scoped rifle. I'm sure he'll wait for you! Been there, done that!  I beleive the question was are the flip-up for decoration, or or they usefull? The flip-ups, if quality are very valuable iron sights. Far better than a single adjustable rear sight, especially when fitted on a rifle with a less than flat trejectory. The single adjustable being set for 50 yds can be used by holding over for longer range! BUT! If that range is far enough, the muzzle, or front ramp will hide your target. With a series of flip ups, the proper blade for the range you are shooting will not let the muzzle hide your target! The only time a ONE ADJUSTABLE iron sight is OK, IMO, is if they are back up on a flat shooting rifle. I much prefere the flip-ups, but to be usefull, quality, ot not, they must be filed in properly. IMO, most folks who fufu flip-up express sights are people who either hven't used them, or didn't bother to file them properly at the range when the rifle was new! I have them on several rifles, and they are dead on at the range they are filed for! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Here is the situation: this fall I picked up a beautiful M70 built by the late Keith Stegall. The workmanship is top shelf and the gun fits me very well. The scope mount is a quick release type. A couple of weeks ago I took off the scope and started playing around with the sights (which are integrated into the quarter rib). I noticed that the notch or "V" on each blade is just a little bit to the left of the one in front of it. So, I imagine that I would be shooting further to the right at 100 more at 200 and even more at 300. Follow-me? I don't see any way to adjust any single leaf without moving all of the rear sights. This really pi$$es me off because I looked at the sights before I bought the gun and I never noticed it. In fact, the only way I can tell the sights are not in a line is when I stand them all up - then I can see that they are not quite right. I have a great gunsmith who could re-cut or replace the blades but I don't necessarily want to spend $$$ fixing a problem if there is no practical reason to do so. Thoughts? Suggestions? | |||
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One virtue -- very fast adjustment between loads -- if you're far enough away for it to matter. If you're not that far away, it doesn't matter, anyway. But its really nice for it to be there when you need it. As for being cut/notched left of where you expect it -- I noticed that some lion loads I loaded for my Lott shoot 3" left at 100 yards compared to Hornady's (either factory or my handloads). Was your rifle set up with a particular load in mind? or to compensate for a shooter who tended to tilt his gun off vertical? Dan | |||
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Since we're talking sights... Has anyone, at any time in the past ever thought about a sliding rear sight like we see on all those surplus Mausers? I think it would make a neat/fast rear sight for a rifle that had to have them. You could start at 50 yards and slide forward from there... Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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Thought: The sights were filed to a particular load like Mac said. I would shoot them and see if they were "on" before I got too disappointed. Better to have regulated sights that hit than pretty sights that don't. That said, folding blades much over 200 yds on a big game rifle are probably a cosmetic left over from the days when there was far less shame for wounding beasts (at least in the colonies). If you missed, you just went to the next animal. Far more people would shoot at 300 yards than could hit. There are plenty of English .303 guns from that golden age that have graduated sporting iron sights to 1200 yds and beyond. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I agree. I guess my next question is what should I expect from iron sights shooting a .375 at 200 and 300 yards? Forget grouping, just what size circle should I be able to hit at those distances? Thanks | |||
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A solid black ball about the size that your bead covers at those distances or slightly larger. Also go up in the paper size so you have enough white on all sides of the bead to shoot "center of mass". Remember, you'll be focusing on the front sight and all you'll have past it is a white, blurry blob. Hard to do a 6 o'clock hold (for me, anyway) with express sights beyond a hundred so I use the "center-of-mass" technique. And I only play around with it. I'm not comfortable with blade and bead beyond 50-75 yds. I shoot aperatures and partridge blades with square notch to about 150 on big game, no farther. If you really want to see what you can expect in the field, buy a full sized deer printed on paper and try to aim at 300. It will put things in perspective real fast. It can be done and done well but it takes practice. To answer the actual question, that will depend entirely on the target and your eyes. I am thrilled when I can hold a consistent 10-12 MOA at 300 with express sights from a better rest than shooting sticks. I can do half that with decent target sights and a target designed for that range. Others I know can do much better. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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MacD37- Far be it from me to tell anyone how to shoot, but I think you have missed the concept on how to hold over with iron sights. Elmer Keith taught us how to use iron sights with a hold over. You don't raise the front sight over the target, you always keep the front bead right on the target; you just see more front sight post. This allows you to always see the target but forces the rear of the firearm slightly down to increase elevation. Think about it. Worked for Elmer and he shot deer at 600 yards with a 44mag. Try it, I think you'll like it. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Most people can't shoot well enough w/ express sights to use a 300yd blade. My DG has a single standing sighted for 100yds, it's about 1" high @ 50yds, about as far as I am shooting DG w/ open sights. You can't compare them to a peep on a battle rifle. It's easy to wound @ 300yds w/ irons, much harder to place a humane killing shot. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Just for the frill of it now days. A single rear sight sighted in to shoot 1 in high at 50 as a back to your scope is all that is needed. | |||
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Elmer's system of hold over is exactly the way flip-ups work, only both sights are in line, and visable! The bead stays on the target, while the flip-up gets higher, only it is easier than guessing how far above the rear sight to hold eye. His system was used by lots of folks who were born into a time in the west when 90% of the rifles were lever action punkin rollers, without adjustable tang sights, which worked the same way flip-up express sights work, except the flip-up is eaiser to use. If you don't have them, then you had to guess, like Elmer did. I'm not that much younger than Elmer, and I've just about used every method you can think of. A graduated hight rear sight is far superior to any guess at hold over! Old Elmer is one of my heros, and I doubt he ever wrote anything I haven't read. 600 yds with a 44 mag is just one of the things that must be taken with a grain of salt. In that vain, my father killed a deer at 1500 yds with his 30-06, and it was sworn to, by his life long hunting partner. There was just one problem, with this however, I was there as well! I later stepped off the distance from his tracks where Dad was standing to where I gutted the deer, and it was a little over 300 yds. My dad was blind with glaucoma when he died five years later. They weren't lieing, It just looked that far to them, and thought the 30-06 shot a lot flatter than it really did! This is the first time I've ever said anything to anyone about my measureing that shot, and I have that deer trophy on my wall today, as my dad has been dead for 25 years. Before he died he retold of that shot many times, to people, and believed it to be true! He enjoyed that experience till he died! Elmer had a habit of walking shots into the target, by watching the dust fly from each shot, like an artillery spotter! Many things worked for Elmer, That are not too well defined for people who were born at ground level, instead of in the clouds, of the saints!  All this has nothing to do with the fact that iron sights are valuable on a hunting rifle, as back up to the scope, but they, like the scope must be quality, and filed in properly, or they are truley window dressing!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Globe and vernier posts are being used for target shooting to 1000 yrds and silhouette shooting out to 500+ yards with BPCR (dare I say) .45-70s (no -- won't claim you can kill t-rex with one). Shooting long distances is do-able, but its a game. Not the thing to do to an animal IMHO... an animal can move a surprising distance in the time it takes a bullet to travel 1000 yards -- difference between a good heart/lung shot and the guts. Wind gets in its licks, and the difference in elevation becomes more and more critical in absolute inches the further out you go (the drop is steeper and steeper in inches per yard). However, target sights do a good job -- even on oddly shaped silhouetts at unreasonable distances. Express sights are not target sights. The scooped out shape of the crown is typical of target crowns. If you ever get a Hart barrel, they always cut their crowns that way. Best thing I could say is try your gun out and see where it prints for several loads... have fun with it! Dan | |||
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Doublegun- Absoutly no disrespect intended but iron sights aren't any good unless one understands how to use them. If the rear sight is moved to the left it will make the bullet impact to the left. If you move your rear sight to the right then the bullet impact will be moved to the right. Ask any High Power shooter. They seem to know how to use iron sights as an "over the course" match shoots out to 600 yards with iron sights. They make sight adjustments usually for elevation AND windage before they start the next leg of the match. Could explain how this is done shooting only at a 25 yard target if need be. Most sights that need a 600 yard elevation change will need some windage clicked in because perfect alignnment of bore to rear sight seems to always have some degree of mis-alignment when you raise the rear sight that much. I realize this is a big bore forem but one should know how to work his sights even for a 100 yard shot. Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm surprise someone else hasn't mentioned this. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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PegLeg, I think most here understand how to adjust sights to get the POI where they want it a any range! That wasn't the question. The question was simply Are iron sights needed, or or they of any use when mounted on a scoped rifle. For a hunting rifle the answer is a definate "YES"! It is assumed with the iorn sights like the two, three, and four flip-up Express irons on big game rifles used in Africa are not decoration, but are there for a purpose. Each flip-up is filed in at the range it is labled for, so that when it is flipped up, one doesn't need to hold over, or guess, but simply hold dead on at the range involved with that blade. If the express sight is NOT filed in properly, then it is window dressing, and is useless! I have owned many double , and express bolt rifles with these sights, and they have all been dead on at the range stamped on them. No need to adjust anything! The scope breaks, pop it off, and finish the stalk, with your quality irons. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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IMHO, hardly anyone has taken the original question correctly. Doublegun has a fixed open that won't be down when/if needed. He seemed to be asking if there is any practical use for the extra flip-up longer range open sights. Well on HIS rifle that's up to how well he can use open sights, i guess. I have used open sights to 500 yards, on a range, and when I could see well. Now I couldn't. So with a 375, a really good shot could conceivably use a 300 yard shot on plains game if desperate. For most people/situations these days, I believe the 200/300 yard sights are tradition/window dressing on African style rifles, and what's wrong with that? | |||
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I spent last Thursday at the range working on, among other things, a double with 5 leaves out to 500yds. Haven't found the load that regulates at 50, so haven't tried the 500yd leaf yet! Another rifle was a newly acquired ruger express 30-06 that shot 6" low at 50 with both the fixed and folding sight. I guess that puts them firmly in the cosmetic catagory, but I won't scope a rifle 'til the irons are 'ironed' out. Mac, Good Post! -Bob DRSS "If we're not supposed to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?" "PS. To add a bit of Pappasonian philosophy: this single barrel stuff is just a passing fad. Bolt actions and single shots will fade away as did disco, the hula hoop, and bell-bottomed pants. Doubles will rule the world!" | |||
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I ask because the sights do not appear to line up, each notch a little further left of the one before. If they truly are screwed-up then I need to decide whether or not I want to look into replacing them but if there is no reason to actually use them then I'll forget about it. The gun has seen use and the gun is fitted with a Leupold VX III 1.5x-5x mounted with quick release rings and I seriously doubt that the sights have ever been used. One of you made an interesting comment that perhaps the sights were purposly set up this way for a particular load. Actually, I think this is an interesting point because of the quality of the workmanship that went into the gun. Bottom line: if there is a practical reason to have them (and I believe that there is) then I need to shoot with the sights to see where they shoot. If they do shoot left (or right) then I need to consider relpacing them. Realistically, I probably never take the scope off, but I would like to have them as an insurance policy in case something goes wrong, which is the point of having them in the first place. | |||
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Oh. I thought he was talking about the model 70 sight that folds out of the way of a scope with a big objective. On defensive weapons (snub nose revolvers and double rifles) I prefer simplicity because simplicity is more likely to lead to reliability. | |||
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No this is a custom gun built around a M70 action. The barrel has a quarter rib and the sights are integrated into the rib. | |||
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MacD37- First off, lets don't get into a pissin' match over this. Takes too much of my energy. I realize that the original question was about whether the folding sights are functional on a gun or for decoration, but Doublegun stated that the sights were off to the left and he figured he would be shooting farther and farther to the right with each flip-up leaf. That is wrong and I was just trying to help with that before he did something drastic on a really nice rifle. He also said that he thought he would have to move the rear sight as one unit (as I read it)and that too is wrong. As you stated (as I understand you to have meant)he should file the sight window. That is correct, each leaf to be filed to regulate it to the yardage it is intended to be used for. You went on to say that Elmer Keith's system of hold over is exactly as flip-ups work (which is wrong too)and you stated it is easier than guessing how far above the rear sight to hold eye. (???) Don't know what you meant with this. If you hold your eye above the rear sight then you have just lost the sight picture but yes you will still be able to see the target.(for what good it will be worth) You also said that Elmer had to guess. Sure would like to have seen Elmer's face when someone said he was guessing! You also said tht you were not that much younger than Elmer. He sould have bee 107 this year. What does that make you? Again you went on to say that Elmer had a habit of walking shots into the target by watching the dust fly. At 600 yards I doubt you could see the dust fly from a 44 slug let alone have a deer stand there and wait to be hit. Maybe while he practiced and Elmer practiced as much as he could afford. That is why Elmer was so good at what he did, shooting big bore pistols and rifles. You also said that all this has nothing to do with whether iron sights are valuable on a hunting rifle. I agree especially if you don't know how to use them correctly or regulate them to the gun. I was just trying to help as I thought that was what this forum was about. Maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong many times before and will be again. But I will tell you this. I know how to use and regulate iron sights for the weapon it is on and figure out if they should be used for shooting or just decoration! The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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If I then understand this correctly, the sights are simular to these:  If that is the case, I say that the fold up leaves are not a good thing to have. I have experianced that they can sometimes get knocked UP (vertically) when thrashing thru dense bush/jesse. So if you suddenly have a up close "situation", and your "200 yard" leaf has been knocked up by mistake, things might not go as you would wish when you shoot. I have a rifle with 2 fold up leaves, and am having them removed, leaving just the standing post. | |||
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Pegleg You sound a little miffed by my post! Thart wasn't my intent I assure you. There is, nor will there be a  contest!
I understand completely!
I agree with you on one thing, it will do him no good to move the express sight as a unit, butTTTTTTTT he doesn't have a choice! I think you are thinking these flip-ups are adjustable, they are not, and if you drift one you drift them all. Simply look at the picture of the sight in the post above mine, to see what I, and DOUBLEGUN means by haveing to drift all the sights as a unit! l I believe that is what he was telling you! He is in a pickel if these sights were already cut wrong, and will have to either tig weld the up, and re-cut or replace the sight.
A I think you could see the dust fly from a round that would kill deer at 600 yds! the 44 Rem Mag is a round that wouldn't make dust fly, yet he killed deer with it at 600yds, is that you contention? 
I'm sure you do, but you misunderstood every thing I wrote! You see that is the trouble with the internet, one doesn't see body language, or voice inflestions. It seems you think I was calling you down in some fasion, and that is not the case. It was evident to me that you were misunderstanding what I was trying to say. That is most likley my fault, as I'm an old man from the old school of thought, and do not have a great command of the written word, and am often misunderstood. It seem I have a dirrect way of writeing, the makes people think I'm angry, or, somehow eletist. This isn't the case at all, face to face you would find me to be a teddy bear! That is neither here, nor there, as I'll simply leave this to the more understandable folks here, anbd to those who understand how to regulate sights to a rifle!.........BYE!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I just want to see a picture of anyone who can shoot a double at any range beyond 100 yards or so.... If its a large enough calibre maybe it was designed to shoot blue whales??? | |||
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 I know quite a few who can hit deer, and pig size animals a more then 200 yds consistantly with double rifles. One who posts here regularly, NE450No2! I witnessed him hit a 30 lb coyote with one shot from each barrel at 270 yds,measured, and he killed a Kudu in Zimbabwe, last year at 300 yds with the same rifle! It was a Chapuis S/S 9.3X74R, scoped! He also has a 450/400 3 1/4" S/S double un-scoped that he regularly kills Wild boar, and deer with, at two huntred yds. He has a 450#2 NE S/S that he uses the same way. We have another here who also posts on this forum who shootes a Hollis S/S 450/400NE 3", and I have witnessed him hit a RUNNING Wild boar at 150 yds for the first shot,spinning him, and at 200 yds for the second shot that put the hog down, and at night, with Iorn sights, and with a spot light giveing letting him see the hog. These are not flukes, these guys do this consistantly. Berger, I'm not in their class, but I would bet, you will not stand at 300 yds hopeing I can't hit you with a 470NE double, or any double I own, with the first or second shot barrel! A double rifle that will not shoot hunting groups at 200 yds, either has something wrong with it, the man shooting can't shoot, or the load being shot in it, is not a well regulating load! This eronius opinion, held by many, is the reason people think a double rifle is only good for stopping! Your "100YDS OR LESS" is the common belief of those who do not know all they think they know about double rifles. The Europiens kill that belief on a daily basis in the Alps shooting RED deer at well over 200 yds, with both S/S, and O/U doubles! The two men I talked about above are members of our DRSS,(DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTER'S SOCIETY), a group that hunts almost exclusively with double rifles, and shoot hundreds of rounds per year, on both paper, and game, year round! Certainly it is easier to shoot well with a bolt rifle,in a large enough chambering to hunt big game, but that doesn't make them any more accurate than a double that has been loaded properly, and shot by a man who can shoot it! There are many who can't hit a Buffalo with a target rifle at 200 yds, but that doesn't mean the rifle isn't capable of that task. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Yes, this is the type of sight on my rifle. This is the type of discussion I was hoping to get started. This is my first big bore and/or DG rifle and I have a lot to learn. Doublegun | |||
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I'm putting a 2x7 scope on mine 375 H&H. Had a 6x but couldn't see real clear close up. | |||
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And if there is a significant problem with the sight alignment you can always replace just the existing leaves, not necessarily the whole sight assembly. File new ones and send them to Scrollcutter to have the gold lines installed. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Which I will do if necessary. | |||
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I really dislike these type of sites. I have them on my Ruger RSM. My rifle is scoped so I have never hunted with them but have noticed that they get flipped up and down through the brush. Invariably you are going to end up with the wrong site flipped up in a heated situation. I would prefer a single rear V site and learn how to shoot it at varying ranges. | |||
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