Technically the same bullet at same velocity will impart the same foot pounds of recoil, if both rifles are comparable in weight.
However, between 375 H&H and 375 Ruger, I believe there may be a factor that isn't often discussed, that is the pressure curve.
If the rise of chamber pressure is significantly faster in one caliber vs another, the perceived recoil may be markedly different.
I am interested in knowing whether other folks are "feeling" a marked difference in recoil of these two similar cartridges.
By the way, I own one of each of those rifles.

Are you referring to "shove vs. punch"? Or some measurable difference?

George

The chamber pressure peak in smokeless rounds is about .4 to .5 milliseconds. The only difference you would feel is velocity, bullet weight, rifle weight, stock configuration and powder weight.

Technically the case that holds the most powder will have the most foot pounds of recoil. In the real world the difference is usually nil and I say usually, but your comparing apples to apples, so all things equal Powder weight would be the difference.

That said, the real differences IMO are in stock design..Ive shot both in a number of rifles and I can't tell any difference, as recoil is personal and dependent on the shooter, in other words if one shoots big bores all the time, he will become insensitive to recoil to different degrees. dependent of his body structure and ability to withstand..Jeeez, it gets complicated from here on!

Get into larger calibers and I seem to detect a difference sometimes but its hard to say as so many varibles exist. I know my old H&H 375, my old Wesley Richards 375 ( both long gone ) and all the Whitworths I've shot seemed to recoil less than other .375 H&H,s. The pre-64s kicked like a mule for instance,and I credit that to the ill fitting stock of the pre-64.. The 375 Rugers I custom stocked were nice as are the African model Rugers, again I think its mostly stock design..

Now Ive completely confused myself, and I refuse to continue this conversation, adios!

With all the variables of rifle weight, stock dimensions, shooting style, etc., I can't believe there is any difference. Both are very mild.
Cal

I have both 375 H&H's & Ruger's, though have not shot the H&H's in awhile. I think the platform that they launch from is more of a difference on recoil perception than the cartridge design.
Some others have opinion the Ruger has a more "sharper" recoil. If so, I have never really noticed it. I believe it would have more to do with the individual rifles.
------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Nisbet:
Technically the same bullet at same velocity will impart the same foot pounds of recoil, if both rifles are comparable in weight.
However, between 375 H&H and 375 Ruger, I believe there may be a factor that isn't often discussed, that is the pressure curve.
If the rise of chamber pressure is significantly faster in one caliber vs another, the perceived recoil may be markedly different.
I am interested in knowing whether other folks are "feeling" a marked difference in recoil of these two similar cartridges.
By the way, I own one of each of those rifles.

George, Yes I am referring to Push vs Punch.
Friends that shoot the 7 mm Magnum often talk and complain of the "instantaneous shock" of that round.
After shooting my pre-war model 70 in 375 H&H, then shooting my Ruger African, I had the distinct impression that I was being punched by the Ruger 375.
As such, I just thought I would ask others about their experiences.

We have a Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby that weighs 7 1/4 lbs with scope (Leupold 2-7x Firedot). It is definitely snappier with 375 Weatherby factory ammo (300g Partitions at 2800 fps chrono'd). It's a pussy cat with Rem factory ammo (300g A-Frames at 2500 fps).

in the "exact" same rifle, with factory spec loads, the more power and the higher pressure, the more recoil.

a 375HH loaded to exactly the same vel as the ruger would take a strain gage to tell the difference

so, factory loads, ruger kicks A LITTLE more
reloads - total toss up

As many wrote here, the most important is how the rifle is built, stock geometry etc. Also personal "feeling" is different person to person.

Example: Shooting my 375 H&H is from my point of view not much different from shooting .22 LR rifle. The same will tell one of my friends, but another one told me that it kicks a lot. When I get from another friend 7x64 rifle for sighting the scope, I was really unimpressed how much it kicks and rises. After firing few shots, I started to hate this rifle a lot. I have also pistol in .460 Rowland with huge muzzle brake/compensator. I can shoot it one hand and from my point of view, it is pleasure to shoot it and it kicks less than 9mm Luger Glock for example. But some of my friends used to 9mm Glocks told me that it kicks a lot. I don't really know how to scientifically explain that.

But I believe that nobody could tell difference between two exact rifles in 375 H&H and 375 Ruger in blind test (when using "same" loads).

Jiri

One variable that can't be measured is an individual's tolerance to recoil. I laughed when one gent a few years ago on the lever action rifles forum wrote that at .44 magnum lever rifle, a Marlin, was painful to shoot.
cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
One variable that can't be measured is an individual's tolerance to recoil. I laughed when one gent a few years ago on the lever action rifles forum wrote that at .44 magnum lever rifle, a Marlin, was painful to shoot.
cal

I just got done shooting some 300gr JHP in my Ruger 96 recoils like a medium 20ga round. I think it well be my bear chasing with hounds rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
One variable that can't be measured is an individual's tolerance to recoil. I laughed when one gent a few years ago on the lever action rifles forum wrote that at .44 magnum lever rifle, a Marlin, was painful to shoot.
cal

A friend of mine has a Marlin 45/70 with a very narrow (thin) stock at the butt with a steel butt plate. That thing hurts more than my 500 Jeffery!

I have a couple of each and would describe the difference in recoil exactly the way I do their performance on game.
There is no dicernable difference if fired with the same bullet in a rfile with similar weight and stock.

I thought there was some factor based on cartridge shape and how the gases pass through shoulder and neck that could exert a minor effect, but I must be all wet, which is frequently the case, as my late father loved to point out.

A straght stock, forward balance and heavy weight of rifle are the big factors in the " felt recoil" equation as far as Ican tell.
This video "Brian Shoots" on You Tube show a 577NE single shot being fired. Notice it comes straight back with a minumum of muzzle rise. The stock is very high and straight with the comb being parallel to the bore, the balance point is 6 inches in front of the trigger and the weight is 14.5 lbs.

These very straight stocks help with recoil but give up something in handling. For example, many nice handling shotguns and old school DG rifles have about 1.5"drop at the comb and 2.5 heel drop.

My two cents worth. I enjoy this thread.

Bill, I have heard that too. It sounds plausible.

Is there any substance to the concept that powder burn rate affects percieved recoil?

Thanks to all for your input, Brian

Any rifle will recoil in two stages. They are so close that one can not feel the difference and it feels like one event.

Firstly there is the bullet and powder getting into motion and moving down the barrel. It is a closed system within which pressure is contained and the only difference is the the position of the bullet and powder within the system - charge in the case and charge spread out from case to muzzle.

Nothing much happens in this phase and the rifle probably moves 1/8" to 1/4" backwards because of the position of the bullet and charge.

When the bullet unplugs from the muzzle, the rifle turns into a rocket that tries to fly away from the vent (gas escaping from the muzzle) and that is when it kicks.

Reduce the pressure that is residual at the muzzle (muzzle pressure) and recoil reduces. (Another way is to redirect the gas that escapes from the muzzle and this is what a recoil brake does.)

The mechanism through which one reduces recoil is to use a faster burning powder. Faster burning powder is generally used with lighter bullets. Both have lower muzzle pressure than a slower burning powder and heavy bullets.

Brian, powder choices can very clearly influence recoil velocity, and hence perceived recoil.
You can see Wayne Van Zwoll's comments on case shape here, but they are not in any way conclusive.

http://www.rmef.org/TheHunt/Before/RIFLESOuch!.aspx

Thanks Bill, I will check out that link to Zwoil's article.

In my 577NE I am using N550 (Slow burn)for the nice friendly pressure curve.
Do you think that slower powder feels like it kicks more?

I just read Gerard's comment. That makes sense to me. (Also, I never knew that. Thanks. Good to know. )

That would mean that my slow burning N550 powder with accompaning huge muzzle flame must result in more felt recoil. Do I have that right? Thanks Brian

"Recoil" is 1/3 physics, 1/3 firearm specific ,1/3 mental and 100% individual.

You are entirely right, Brian. Depending on the bullet weight, I would rather use something like N135 than N550. Much the same case fill and about 40fps less but about 1000psi less muzzle pressure. A 16% reduction in muzzle pressure is very noticeable and makes the gun less spectacular but much more shootable.

Gerad, I have a recoil question. It seems like whether I'm shooting a 270 Win, 375 H&H or 500 Jeffery, as I get closer to a max load (for example shooting a 570g bullet at 2500 fps out of my 500 Jeffery rather than 2300 fps) with the same powder the recoil goes up exponentially rather than linear. Is it purely subjective or is there a basis in physics?

Gerard, Thanks. That is what I will do. It makes sense now that I put the pieces together in my mind. Thanks, again.

ps. The You Tube video "Brian Shoots 2" shows a lot of muzzle flash on a medium load. (115;5 grains of N550 for a 700 grain cast bullet.)

Weight and stock fit are going to be the only discernible difference, IMHO.

Chuck, there are so many variables but the increase in muzzle pressure slows down as one increases the charge. It is inversely proportional to muzzle velocity. About all one can say is that the higher the speed, the higher the muzzle pressure if the same powder is used. It probably boils down to tolerance to recoil or as lavaca says, weight and stock fit.

Using the right powder is probably more important than what one thinks. For example, it is possible to have a slightly faster burning powder that gives the same felt recoil at several hundred fps more than a slower powder.

Thanks Gerad, I'm using H4895 (103g for 2300 fps with 570g TSX's) in my 500 Jeffery. That's probably at my recoil tolerance. I had to use a lot more IMR4350 to get to 2500 fps, 6 rounds of that was past my tolerance.

Both those loads are over pressure. With a 570gr bullet the fastest MV would be around 2200fps and that would be pushing it somewhat. I would definitely back it off quite a bit.

Gerard, One more question please. If I switch from N550 to N135 in my 577 NE, will the pressure increase much?
(I am now at 115 grains of N550, 1750fps with 700 gr cast bullet 700 gr cast bullet )

Thanks for your assistance. Brian

Sorry about the delay, I got involved in a workfrenzy and did not have much time. The muzzle pressure will reduce by about 500psi if you load to the same speed at about 1750fps. The burn rate will increase substantially from around 77% to almost 100%. The case fill will be about the same and you will still need a filler.

If you load at the same weight of 115gr with N135, the muzzle pressure goes up by about 200psi but you will gain more than 200fps and it is probably not advisable to run lead bullets that fast.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Both those loads are over pressure. With a 570gr bullet the fastest MV would be around 2200fps and that would be pushing it somewhat. I would definitely back it off quite a bit.

Thanks Gerad, I will back off to 101g I get 2150 fps with that load, still .5 MOA. It will be easier on my shoulder too ...

Gerard, Thanks for the good advice. I will put it to use and try some N135 at about the same velocity. Maybe 112 grains of N135 to start with. Sound good?
Thanks again, Brian

Chuck I am sure that you will enjoy that load much more. It will turn it from a 'morning gun' to a much more enjoyable piece.

Brian I think you should start lower than 112gr, probably closer to 102gr. N135 is a lot faster than N550 and better be safe than sorry.

Gerard, OK Thanks, I will. 102 grains of N135 for starters. I have a Cape Buffalo (3) hunt soon in the Low Veld.

Thanks again for the good help/advice. Brian

I have been thinking! I am going to make one of those cannon type muzzle brakes for my 577NE; just for fun; see how it works. I have a cnc mill. If it works, I will post it.(They sure are ugly!)
With N550 powder I sure have lots of gas coming out the muzzle.

Has anyone tried this type of side blast , cannon type of brake on a big bore?

I wear amplified hearing muffs now so it doesn't matter so much to me, but the PH and tracker might have some strong opinions about it.

I wouldn't swear to it but I think perhaps the long sloping H&H case in 375 H&H cuts recoil to some extent, how much I wouldn't know..I also feel the 300 H&H recoils less than a 300 Win. for the same reason..I have been told this by the experts, and it holds true with me. I can tell a little difference..but recoil is so subjective to an individual and so many varibles exist that I wouldn't argue with anybody on the subject, just state my case and let it go at that..It actually has little to do with anything IMO as the difference is so slight.

Ray, I agree. I think that there is something to that. I just didn't have the nerve to say it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I wouldn't swear to it but I think perhaps the long sloping H&H case in 375 H&H cuts recoil to some extent, how much I wouldn't know..I also feel the 300 H&H recoils less than a 300 Win. for the same reason..I have been told this by the experts, and it holds true with me. I can tell a little difference..but recoil is so subjective to an individual and so many varibles exist that I wouldn't argue with anybody on the subject, just state my case and let it go at that..It actually has little to do with anything IMO as the difference is so slight.

Ray, I am sure you are well aware that most 300 Win loads are a lot faster than most 300 H&H loads, which would certainly account for more recoil.
As for the 375 H&H and Ruger, I was just getting ready for our spring brown bear season and sighting in a few rifles and, I am sure it is the stock design, one of the H&H rifles was a lot less pleasant than the 375 Ruger.

Phil,
You overlooked the fact that I was the owner and handloader of the 300 H&H in question, I can duplicate the 300 Win. in my 300 H&H, and beat the sox of factory loaded 300 Win.!! but push come to shove I agree it would be hard to tell the difference on this worn out piece of rawhide that is my shoulder.