To refresh your memory, I have a beautifully built paper weight in the corner of my gun room in the form of a custom 404 Jeffery with a Kahles scope that won't shoot. The problem is the head space is too long and most rounds will not ingnite. So far we have tried RWS factory rounds and my handloads sized on CH4D dies.

And Ray, those that did fire were 90 grains of IMR 4831, Norma brass and 400-grain Woodleigh soft points. Primer was pierced, flattened beyond description and the web bulged to the point that it looked like it was going to split. First indication of trouble was the bolt had to be hammered open. Chronographed at 2360 (A little hot for 90 grains) but three shots (between 12 misfires) touched at 50 yards.

Gunsmith still is trying to blame my loads, not his reamer (even though both factory loads and hand loads failed). He wants me to try Kynamco factory loads, trouble is, there aren't any available right now. I'm getting a little miffed. I've got three grand invested and I could be on my way to a buffalo hunt as early as May with a borrowed rifle, which would really suck.

I've sent two spent rounds off to Dave Davison of CH4D to get his opinion on what we have to do to make this rifle shoot. Could just be a matter of backing off the dies a couple of turns and using 404 basic brass(you can't fire-form brass if the gun won't fire!)

The only other alternative is to take the barrel off, cut off a couple of threads and re-ream it. This is what I would like to do, but I need the gunsmith's cooperation first, which he is reluctant to do at this juncture. Anyone know how much this should cost?

Boy am I depressed.

Just a thought on fire forming. Most benchrest shooters, when fire forming 6ppc from 220 Russian, will seat the bullet far enough out to engage the rifling. This will hold the cartridge in place well enough to sustitute for headspace to get the cases fireformed. Of course, if you have too much freebore, like in a Weatherby, to engage the rifling with the bullet, this won't work. After you get them fire formed, adjust your dies so you don't push the shoulder back too far.

If it turns out to be the chamber,then it's the 'smith's fault,and he will have to eat it.That simple.If he's got the balls to charge you for fixing his own mistake,don't ever go back to him,and let every one of your friends know about the situation.

His excuse it fruitless,that's for certain.

Brian.

GAHunter..
have your gunsmith(or another one) do a chamber cast, and measure it. That will remove ALL doubt... It's His problem.. he needs to fix it on HIS nickle, rapidly.

OR...(but this will NOT tell you if it's eggshaped or too fat)

order a set of no go gages, and chunk them in.. $28 for a 2 second test...

brownells has em
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=5063

midway has them
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/368265

and reamer rentals will rent you them, for cheap
www.reamerrental.com

In all honesty, the chamber cast will be the best bet, and take about 1/2 an hour...

sorry it's going on this long, and it will probably be a setback and rechamber, along with REBEDDING of the barrel.

if you get too crunched, I can be talked into loaning you a 416 rem

jeffe

[ 01-21-2003, 05:26: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

You spent way too much to have a rifle with an "improved" chamber. I agree with the chamber cast, and that the rifle builder needs to make it right!!!

gahunter - I ran into the exact same excessive headspace problem before. This is can be a problem with any rimless brass. I had a bad batch of .416 Dakota brass. I solved the problem by using a .422" bushing to expand the case mouth. I then ran the case back into the .416 die and resized the neck so that I could get a crush fit in the chamber.

All you are doing is fire forming the brass. I chose not to seat the bullets long considering the amount of powder you must throw in a .416. Sorta made me nervous. You can use a .432" expander button to do the same thing for your .404J.

Considering the 8 degree shoulder on the .404J, it could easily be the brass and not the chamber. I agree that a quick chamber cast will remove all doubt. At the end of the day, you have plenty of case to work with and fire forming is no big deal. Once formed, there is no need to re-chamber. You will neck only size in the future so this is a one time headache. This is a fairly common problem so do not despair.

I sent you a PM.
.
.

[ 01-21-2003, 06:21: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Ask him how he determined the correct headspace.
Gauges? factory ammo? It sound like that case is expanding WAY too much at the web = misalignment of the setup in the lathe. Setting the barrel back is not going to get rid of all that buldge if it's that sloppy in the first place. What action is it on?

[ 01-21-2003, 05:50: Message edited by: Bear Claw ]

if the reamer was "Stuffed" in, and too long, then the base of the chamber will be too large, causing the cases to EXTREMELY swell at the base, which is why I am recommending a chamber cast..,,,

can you measure an unfired case and a fired one? at the same point on the web?
jeffe

To answer your question about what action it is, it's a M77, RSM, Mark II, which began life as a .357 H&H. It now sports a Kreiger barrel, which I am going to slug tomorrow to make sure that I'm not swaging .423 bullets down a .416 pipe. (Don't laugh. It has happened before.)This would explain the pressure problem.

I am also going to take the gun to Bennett's custom shop tomorrow evening and let them do a chamber cast. Then we will know how bad off we are.

Some of you already know who the builder is from previous posts. He is very reputable and those who have had dealings with him in the past have been very satisfied. I am not going to mention his name again unless it becomes clear that I can get no satisfaction. For the present, I will give him the benefit of the doubt (I just wish he would act like it is his problem, as well as mine).

By the way, this is the second custom rifle I have taken delivery on this year and the second load of crap I've had shoveled in my face in the form of problems with the gun. From now on, it's off-the-shelf factory guns for me.

GAHunter

You don't have to stick to factory rifles (they never make exactly what you want), but I always recommend buying a barreled action that has been testfired and start the custom project from there.

If you need a .404 for your trip, you can take mine. Just let me know in advance so you can test drive it.

I just measured the web of a fired case and found it to be .012-inch bigger than an unfired case (visible to the naked eye and to the touch). I have no idea how this relates to "normal" web expansion.

Thanks so much for the offers to lend me a rifle. But I have several sources for "loaners" within my family (I have a cousin who is a custom gun builder who is begging me to take one of his .375 Ultra Mags, which will make burger of most buffalo, as long as I do my part.) This is the route I will go if I can't get mine to shooting and the trip comes into fruition, which it may not.

I would go out and buy a new off-the-shelf rifle before I would take responsibility for somebody's "baby", especially a fine wood-stocked 404 or 416 classic. At least my cousin's rifles are all stainless Model 700 actions mated to McMillen fiberglass stocks (yes, they're push feed). They all shoot great, but if you tied one to the bumper of a Land Cruiser and drug it through the bush for a couple of days, it would actually have it's looks IMPROVED!

[ 01-21-2003, 07:23: Message edited by: GAHUNTER ]

GAHunter

Mine expands .006" at both the web and the shoulder.

Did you say .012?
rhetorical question,

let's hear about the chamber cast.

jeffe

GAHUNTER- Let me give you something to try. Take a loaded round and with a pair of pliers and some cloth wrapped around your case, squeeze the case just behind the shoulder enough to bulge it foreward slightly. Not too much just enough to get it to chamber solidly You should feel some resistance as you chamber the round. If not squeeze the shoulder again until it chambers with definate resistance. The case will now fire as you now have enough resistance for the firing pin to light off the round. Fire this case. Reload it with just neck sizing. Do NOT TOUCH the shoulder. I'll bet it fires perfectly. you just corrected the headspace/brass problem. What you are doing is moving the shoulder foreward a little bit and enough to get the gun to fire. Don't worry this is perfectly safe. I once used some PMC brass in my custom .50BMG and found that the brass had short headspace for my chamber( yes, it was the brass and not the chamber!). I did this at the range and shot a 7 inch, 1000 yrd group!
This is a little trick I learned from Skip Talbot of 1000yrd .50 BMG fame. Let me know if it works.-Rob

[ 01-21-2003, 09:49: Message edited by: Robgunbuilder ]

Rob & gahunter - you have a PM (under "my profile").

.012 expansion is totally unacceptable for any custom gun especially one that cost 3 grand.

In my mind, you have a piece of junk with a lot of headspace and a oversize chamber, too big in the base and too long....Also a gunsmith that apparantly does not want to correct the situation. He should trash that barrel and replace it with another, that is what I would do if you got it from me...He either has a bad reamer or does not know when to stop.

If 90 grs. of IMR-4831 gives you problems then everything is wrong. Max is 95 and my normal loads for all around shooting are 93 grs. in all my 404's over the years...case life is about 14 shots and considering the 404's are prone to stretching that's pretty darn good.....Jim Brockmon uses my max loads to test his rifles. He also likes the 93 gr. load...

Over the years there has been a lot of descripency in 404 specs, and a lot of bad reamers are out there......

I wouldn't let one "gunsmith" turn me off on a nice custom rifle, Lots of good smiths out there, you just have to know who to use...

Friends, we are on our way to a resolution to this problem. First of all, the gunsmith is making me a cartridge guage from the reamer to use as a guide in settimg back the shoulder on fire-formed (or basic, unformed) brass. Everybody I know says that this should solve my problem as long as the chamber was not mis-reamed in some way.

When I get this guage in hand and make some ammo, I'll post the results.

GAHUNTER- So a guy who apparantly can't ream a chamber( based on your description) is going to make you custom head-space guages from Reamer dimensions he got from someplace and your gonna set your dies against this, and it's gonna work? I'm outta here!-Rob

GAHUNTER

So what color are those Primroses on that path anyway.

The first 404 I had built was assembled from the parts I sent Dennis Oleson.I used both Norma and RWS brass with Redding dies. The Chamber reamer and head space gauges I bought from JGSW. The loaded ammunition shot OK but when I resized the cases, It was like I was doing case forming and if I didn't adequately lube the cases they stuck. I did everything I could think of to correct the problem. I even bought a new set of RCBS dies thinking the Redding's were bad. I put the rifle up and later had another rifle commissioned for a friend. I sent the gauges and reamer with the barrel and action. The gunsmith was smart enough to check the reamer before doing the job as he had little experience with the Jeffery round. He called me to say that the reamer was not right and had to send it back to JGS. Those people sent me a new reamer and everything is great now. I now have 4 404 Jeffery guns chambered with different reamers. They do have one thing in common - Krieger barrels. All are real shooters. You have a bad chamber .Don't jump through hoops. Send it to Shillen for an inspection. They will give you a diagnostic break down of what is right or wrong with the rifle then send the rifle back to maker with the proof of what is wrong with the gun.
lb404

I now know who the gunsmith is and I am surprised that you are haveing such a problem as he has a very good reputation as a smith, but mostly with pistols as I recall...

Your solution makes no since what so ever, and I can't believe he told you that would solve your problem, surly he knows better than that...something is amiss here....

If what you describe is correct and you are reloading properly, then you need a new barrel and a new chamber, end of story..

Ray, Rob, et.al., I am holding off all comments and criticism until I get my chamber cast and find out exactly where we are wrong. The chamber cast will tell me the exact dimensions of the chamber, unequivocally.

The rifle is with a good smith right now and should be cast either this week or next.

Thanks.

In lieu of the chamber cast it still seems to me you could draw some conclusions between the fired and unfired cases. I think you had 0.012 expansion at the web but you didn't specify any other numbers. Are there measurable differences in some of the other dimensions? Obviously a good chamber cast will be a better measurement.

Rotsa ruck!!

Reed

A chamber cast isn't going to tell you about the headspace .It will only give you the chamber dimensions up to whereever the case web meets the barrel face. To determine the headspace you really need to yank the barrel and measure it. You can get some idea with the use of known good headspace guages for the 404, a stripped bolt and measuring how much the bolt moves foreward. But that's only approximate. I think your being shined on here.-Rob

.0012 is a lot of pressure and/or movement of brass, dangerously so unless you just firefromed the case, in which case the chamber is oversize...

slug the bore also, it may be .411, 416 or ??? and that would cause a world of problems..

Bottom line is this should not be the problem to detect as it has been out to be...find out whats

See what happens when the phone rings and I try to post and talk to customers, never works....the last sentence on the above post went haywire....

What I ment was this 404 shouldn't be a problem to fix...

I doubt that the bore size is a problem. Ackley shot 8mm and I believe .35 caliber bullets trhough a .308" bore with no pressure problems.

Gentlemen

I think it's a to large reamer that have been used to cambering this barrel or incorrect reaming. I have a hard time imagine that Kreiger would made a bad barrel.

The least you can demand by the gunsmith is a new barrel fitted by a gunsmith of you choice. I guess you are not soo keen of getting the same clown of doing it again.

I have a buddy in USA who had problems with a custom job Hamilton Bowen did for him. I took some time before it got solved.

I hope everything will be solved in time before your hunting travel. Who has "built" this rifle?

/ JOHAN

Measure the chamber cast, the fired cases & the reamer then compare the readings. That should tell the story. What is the barrel bore diameter ( grove diameter )? Whats the reamer pilot diameter? The is a difference in 404 measurments between US measurments & European (CUP) standards.

Ray:
It's called bourbon... not a telephone.

JudgeG,

If I'm supposed to surmise that you're "old as dirt" by looking at your photo, then I must be old as, let's say, Ray Atkinson. Nix the mustache, and you and I could be twins! I got a late start on this African stuff, but I'm making up for lost time.

Thanks for the personal messages citing your problems with the 404.

Johan,

Your post has more pertinence than you can ever know. Thanks.

I must admit that this is interesting from a "morbid curiosity/watching a trainwreck" sort of perspective. Obviously headspace issues could be answered with the right tools. The problem is that our information is coming from the owner who doesn't have these tools and shouldn't be expected to have them...hence all this guessing.

We seem to have a good idea on web expansion but I'm curious if at least some determination on headspace could be gained by measuring the length from case head to shoulder on one of the fired cases? It's certainly nothing to hang one's hat upon but it might answer more questions.

Oh well, idle speculation. It will be interesting to hear the final story. I hope you can share it with us.

Reed

GA Hunter

For comparison purposes:

My Norma unsized brass, full length sized brass, and fired brass are nearly identical at:

2.010" base to shoulder
2.265" base to neck

The neck expands from .446" to .453"
The web expands from .540" to .546"

Hope this helps.

I would recomend that you do not shot it again. We have a member of this forum who had a 308 norna case rupture and he is not a pretty sight. There is much more gas volume involved. Your gunsmith owes you the time nessacry to find out what is wrong let him do the test firing if that is what he wants done I would be ashamed to let a rifle out of my shop with more tha .007" of head space.

A poor boys head space measurment is to get a go gauge and take peices of notebook paper and stack them as you keep closing the bolt real gently First take off the extracter.Note paper is aprox .006" thick. You can use a new case and calculate your effective head space. This is not rocket seince but will give you a close estamate of your problem

use coke cans, not paper... the alum wont compress, if you have to go that route!!
jeffe

My guess is the 404 headspace guage used does not match the reamer. Apparantly there are a number of 404 reamer dimensions out there that differ significantly. Who knows if the Smith even used a true 404 reamer and didn't try and get away with a Ultramag reamer or domething. If the wrong headspace guage or reamer was used, it would explain what is going on here. A web base measurement of .012 makes me very suspicious.
In any case why isn't the Smith who built it doing all the legwork to sort this out? I'd drop it off and tell him I'll be back when he has corrected the problem -Rob

Well, Dave Davison of CH4D Tool and Die Company, the maker of my 404 dies, e-mailed me and said that he can see no evidence of excessive headspace in the two pieces of fired brass I sent him. They measure up just right.

What he does see evidence of is undersized brass! Anybody else ever had a problem with Norma brass being undersized?

It's beginning to look like the May buffalo hunt is not going to happen, and my June trip to Namiba is just for plains game (not 404 fare). So I've got some time to get this solved.

It's not much of a sample pool but I have Norma cases from two different lots and I've had no problems with either lot. They were both shot in a factory FN rifle for what that's worth.

Reed