GAHUNTER - Headspace is a common problem with any rimless case - especially the tapering .404J case. You would think that brass and reamers should match, but many times they don�t. You may want to try Bertram brass or MAST/Bell brass. You can also fire form the brass you have just like Rod described in his previous post.

In any event this situation is not uncommon or the end of the world.

GAHUNTER

What are the dimensions of your loaded cartridges?

The cartridges that fired have streched to the point that the excess headspace has been eliminated. You won't be able to tell from fired cases except by comparing to unfired ones. The problem is the rounds that won't fire. Try the method I described before for you and move the case shoulder foreward so that the brass will fire. Shoot everything you have and then reload it, neck sizing only. I'll bet the problem is solved.-Rob

Smith e-mailed me this morning to tell me that he had gotten the unfired, resized brass that I sent him and had put it in the cartridge gauge. He said it "disappeared" in the gauge. When he measured it, it was .030-.033" too short on headspace.

Now, Dave Davison at CH4D tells me that the fired brass, which most agree is a true depiction of the chamber, measures right on for the 404.

This leads us to one of three conclusions: either the brass was headspaced short before we sized it; I got a defective die; or I made some kind of mistake at the press causing me to set the shoulder back too far.

When the gauge gets here, I'll be able to tell which is true.

I'm just hoping that you set the headspace too far back when adjusting the die. Wow! Just a couple of turns back and what you thought was a big $$$$ problem would be solved.... Let's keep our fingers crossed! I love my .404. Come to South Georgia and lets shoot together sometime.

Judge,

It can't be that simple, can it? Boy, I hope this is the case. Won't know until I get some new 404 brass and start loading again. I've ordered both Bell unformed and formed brass, but I won't load until I get the cartridge gauge in hand.

You, and others, were right about the 404 being a joy to shoot. I've shot my cousin's .416 Rigby off the bench with bone jarring results. It almost made me dread taking the 404 to the range. But the six or seven times that my rifle did actually ignite the round were quite pleasant. Felt recoil was nowhere close to the 416.

Could be a difference in the two rifles, I guess. It seems logical to me that two rifles pushing the same bullet (400-grain Woogleigh) at approximately the same speed (2400 fps)would produce the same amount of recoil.

I'm sure glad they don't!

.012 expansion at the WEB tells me that either the brass is undersize or the chamber is eversize.
Make a chamber cast & measure the chamber cast & the unfired case. How much differents is there?

Got some loaded rounds made by Safari Arms from Judgeg. They fired perfectly with no pressure signs or flattened primers. They fed and loaded with slight pressure when the bolt was turned down.

I also got my cartridge gauge and loaded twenty round of Bell brass that also loads with slight pressure when the bolt is turned down. I'm going to the range today to see if these work.

Whole problem could be solved. Wish me luck!

Welcome to the world of rimless cases. When in doubt get new brass - that way you don't bitch out your gunsmith for no reason.

Glad you solved your problem the inexpensive way. I corrected 20 Dakota cases by using Robgunbuilder�s shoulder squeeze method. Works perfectly and is very safe. You can correct your other brass with the same method.

Headspace can be a pain.

Yeah,Zero, but when FACTORY brass AND new "sized" brass fails, you tend to get a little antsy about your rifle.

One thing I have learned for certain: the 404 Jeffery is VERY sensitive to head spacing. Now I understand what Ruger was saying when they dropped it.

GAHUNTER,

Glad to see your problems seem to be resolving. At the start of this thread I had decided that I really didn't need a 404 Jeffery? Your problems and the resolution of most of those has rekindled my need for a 404 Jeffery.

Thanks

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Who says belted cases are bad?

Switching from belted to rimless can be very frustrating - especially when you must fireform your less than perfect brass.

It's tough being a pioneer - they are the one's constantly getting shot with arrows...

I wouldn't classify the problem as being solved just quite yet. However, If I get 20 ingnitions today and 20 ignitiions (without damage to the brass) when I reload this brass, then I will have a lot more confidence that I have it licked.

I'm glad your problem is solved but where does this leave the prospective 404 buyer who wants a rifle that fires the sort of range of ammunition and brass that any other rifle does.

Is it best to aquire some RWS factory, Kynoch factory and some Norma brass loads and insist the gun functions with all before you take delivery?

GAHUNTER:

Glad to hear there is positive progress with your 404 Jeffery.

On the subject of felt recoil, I don't understand how both the 404J and 416 Rigby push 400 grain bullets at 2400 fps with completly different felt recoil. This is not an argument, but maybe you or someone else can help me understand the physics behind this.

Thanks.

B

Eureka!!!!

Fired 20 shots; got 20 perfect ignitions!

I used Ray's IMR 4831 load of 92 grains pushing a 400-grain Woodleigh. Velocity ranged from 2,430 to 2,465 fps. Had one push up over 2,500, and one fall off to 2,390.

A couple of the primers were a little flattened, so I'm going to back off to 91 grains and see if I can hover around 2,370 to 2,400 fps. Accuracy was about two inches at 100 yards.

As far as waiting to see if you have proper headspacing on a new rifle before you take delivery, it would not be a bad idea. Unfortunately, you are going to be limited to Kynoch and custom makers liker Superior and Safari Arms. RWS has quit making factory loads for the 404. Talked to a Ruger Rep who confirmed that difficulty in obtaining properly headspaced ammo was the reason they dropped the caliber from it RSM line.

Bulliwyf,

I don't know the reason the 404 seems to kick less than the 416, other than the fact that my 404 is very heavy and has a really nice recoil pad. I figure it has to be the difference in the two rifles, since, as you said, a 400-grain bullet being pushed a 2,400 fps should kick about the same.

That said, those 20 I fired today packed a pretty good punch. There's a big difference in recoil felt when the bullet is being pushed out at close to 2,500 fps rather than a more reasonable 2,250, which is closer to "classic" 404 velocity.

For the sake of Rusty and all those who think the 404's are a problem, I have never had a hint of a problem with any of mine, just like an over grown 30-06 in size and shape..Brockmon or Belk have had not problems, nor have a host of others...

I don't know without looking at the rifle, but I still do not understand the 12 thousands over size chamber measurement...that tells me its a damn sloppy chamber no matter what, it has to be, unless the measurer person read it wrong. Did you full lenth resize the new brass, if so, I suspect you set the shoulder back also....

The 404 just isn't that hard to load and Ruger is covering their dumb ass, because I know they simply used the wrong specs and there are some old European specs out there that are incorrect and most Smiths know that, unfortunatly Ruger did not...so who hires those guys???

I'd send that gun to Jack Belk or Jim Brockman and fix it right and be done with it....

Just got back from the range where I fired 20 more successful shots with no misfires (oh my aching shoulder). Ninety-one grains of IMR 4831 produced 1 1/2-inch groups at 100 yards and chronoed 2370 to 2420 fps.

I even tried some 200-yard shots an managed to consitantly get in a six-inch circle, after compensating for the eight inches of drop.

Also, shot my open sights at 50 yards and got them zeroed dead on at 50. When I put my quick release scope (Warne mounts) back on, it shot as if the scope had never been off.

No pressure or headspace signs and brass is just now (third loading) getting to the trim-to length.

I am a happy camper!

[ 02-16-2003, 01:44: Message edited by: GAHUNTER ]

Glad to hear everything is working. What then, was causing the problem?

GA,
A word to the wise, NEVER use Warne rings and bases on a gun requiring the levers on the right side of the gun, the bolt side...the rings will bounce out and work around and can block the uplift of the bolt...It happened to me in a charge situation, but a good PH saved the day...or at least tape them in the upright position with electrical tape.

I have seen this happen several times and finished my hunt with taped up levers, I sold all my warnes and went to talleys after that hunt.....

You cannot properly install them on the left side on a Mauser, some Rugers, and a few others that do not come to mind.. as the bolt release will interfere with their operation..even with some judious hand fitting they will not work properly as the levers jump out of position from recoil and cause a lot of problems...Also I only use low bases and rings.

My situation could have had serious results, and it was a lesson well learned for me that I will pass on for what its worth....

KurtC,

The problem was two fold: One, and I have this confirmed, is the last bunch of RWS factory ammo was headspaced short (actually set to the absolute minimum), which caused my maximum headspaced rifle to not accept the round. The other problem is my CH4D dies are also headspaced at the minimum, which caused me to take perfectly good brass and set the shoulder back so it would not work.

I now use Bell brass and back off the sizing die one full turn on both new and fired brass. This causes the rounds to load with an ever-so-slight pressure when I turn down the bolt. My gunsmith said all along the problem was in the ammo, and I think he may be right. But he also said that I (and he) should not be satisfied that the problem is licked until I have fired two hundred rounds without a misfire. Oh my aching shoulder!

Ray,

I love the 4831 load. Without you, I would never have found it, as most of the published data utilizes Reloader 15. The 4831 fills the case perfectly, which is something you cannot say about Re. 15. It does seem that I am getting a little more velocity out of a little less powder than what you say you are getting, but it could be my brand new Kreiger barrel is a little faster than a lot of older guns.

As to the Warne rings, yes, mine are on the right side. I called them to find out if this is the only way I can get them, and they said it was. I tried to get Tally, but they do not make a set of detachable for the Ruger grooved system.

I like the rings, as the scope returns to zero every time. Thanks for the tip about taping them in the upright position. I'll do this when I hunt dangerous game.

GA,
I chronographed my loads out of an original Jefferys rifle with the 27" barrel...makes a considerable difference....

I think the answer to the Warne levers is a considerably stronger spring that won't allow recoil to move them...that should be a simple fix.

I think i will join in agian if the 404 cases are that loose I would cut one in half lenght wise and see how much thinning is going on buy the head, these could get a person hurt to say the least if to much strecthing is going on. I like all the parts to my ugly face. Lets just say safty first

Ray have you slugged that original Jefferys barrel? I am very interested to know what the bore size actually is on one of those. The 404 barrels I have slugged measured .418.

I am surprised by the statements about the Warne rings re: the left side of a mauser. I only have one set, but they are on a mauser I built in 338/284. As with all my scopes, I mount all attachments on the left side to avoid loading problems. I don't recall any problems with the mounting and have no interference problems. Did this about 5 years ago. Has something changed?

Art,

The Warne rings for the Ruger grooved receiver come with the lever on the right side. I don't know about the Mauser rings.

GAH

GAHUNTER-There is nothing really bad about a max chamber as long as you are doing what you did to solve problem(Backoff resize die to let brass fit).That gives a small amount of extra case capacity.The measured expansion of fired cases at
base should not be more than .006 bigger than
what the unfired resized brass is after you reload it.You said that there was a difference of
.012 compared to the undersized factory brass that
wouldn't fire.How did this figure that gave you the .012 compare to factory specs for 404 base
which is .545. Also as oddball above said you
should section cases to see if there is sidewall
thinning just ahead of base.As long as smith wants you to shoot a lot to check it out take 10 cartridges and reload and fire 3 times then section 2 of them lengthwise to check thinning.If ok fire remaining 8, 2 times more, section two, if ok fire remaining 6, 2 times, section 2, and so on.It is work, but fun and you will learn someting all gunnuts need.IE,What brass does and
what is safe.Only have to section an inch from base up lengthwise .This process gives you an idea of the safe number of reloads you can do.
And if you are resizing right,Ie not causing to much headspace.Good Hunting.Ed.