I hate to ask this question being the owner of several big bore bolt guns but has the demand for big bore bolt guns diminished? I follow a couple dealers who have $4K and up bolt rifles and their inventory is unchanging. It seems nothing is selling. I wonder if this is the result of lessened elephant hunting, the improvement of the Model 70, the CZ,the inexpensive Ruger Africans or the increased number of hunters opting to use the outfitters guns.
The market seems OK for collection type guns but high end factory or custom rifles are not in play.
Has anyone else seen this trend or am I mistaken? I see the Dakota 375 in the classifieds and several posters are politely taking issue with the price. Cabelas recently sold a Safari grade 375 Dakota 76 with a Leica scope for $3800. They are also chopping prices on other Dakotas.
I am very curious how US sales have been with Heym for the Martini designed bolt gun. I see the new Rigby at $14K and up and wonder if they will sell.
My local gun dealer tells me rifle sales in general are poor yet pistol sales are brisk.
I have always been a "rifle guy" and my collection reflects that.

I can't afford to play in that park but I do thoroughly enjoy perusing the offerings on line. From that perusal it appears the rifles you mention are stagnant and your observation of the Model 70, CZ and Ruger probably plays a significant role.

As an aside and observation on my part I wonder if the current conditions in the world are having any effect on overseas travel and hunting.

I dont think it is anything unusual. The big bores are a specialized bunch and aren't a large segment of the market and never have been. And certainly not in the USA. No one is going to use them for targets and very few for deer hunting. Combine that with the much higher factory ammo costs and that is what you have.

And these fireball markets can't go on without stopping for some air. Here our gun stores had record month after record month for 5 years plus. I mean BIG years of sales. A lot was handguns and 223 , but there were also off scale hunting rifle and shotgun sales. But again big bores are the smaller part of it and is seen in the higher prices.

No matter the total "market" numbers there is going to be more VWs sold than Porsches. And many more 30-06s than 416 Rigbys. I for one use the M70s pretty much across the board. And I do know that at least the younger guys I talk to like the Rugers as you mentioned. At places like Rock Island Auctions the prices still seemed pretty brisk in most categories.

I suspect there are conditions affecting hunting. There is always something anyway. But hunters are a hardy lot and tend to go in spite of the smaller issues when there is money available to them. Many of the best places here in Texas and other states are locked up for years already. Many of the same in Africa are booked for at least 2-3 years out. Considering how many that is now, that is saying something.

Sure there could always be more. But a trip to DSC will convince you that while there are ups and down but that overall there are good numbers. But there is a big supply out there now of rifles. Maybe at saturation. As some of the younger hunters go up the chain there will probably be more interest in the customs. It just takes a while.

I see a softer market, mostly that can be blamed on the high rising costs of safari such as in Tanzania by a greedy government.

The good old boys that used to save, keep the same house, not buy a new car every year, saved and hunted can't save in this administrations bungling of the economy and everything else it touches.

The world is changing and the media up-plays every catastrophic event. According to my airline connections folks are not traveling abroad these days like they did in the last 15 years, all of these things effect the gun and hunting biz like it does everything else. The glory days of Safari are over or at least on tap for awhile, who knows and this isn't the first time the safari business has weakened, they are not immune, but tend to act like all is just dandy instead of dealing with it in a more business like manner.

This and other events create a soft market on big bores and double guns IMO, to what extent I have no idea, but its considerable. I do know that the market has been soft during certain months over the last 20 years, the best time to sell guns is in Feb. March and April. The market is really soft before Jan. 1, Christmas should be a hot month but it never has been..It starts getting good when folks get tax money back IMO...Just the way I see it, and how its worked for me..

Hunt prices have risen a lot. Gun prices have dropped, especially for big bores.

Dakota and Cabelas dumping hundreds of big bore Dakotas into the frey didn't help anything.

Big bore rifles are a small niche. High-priced big bores are an even smaller niche.

Outfits like Dakota charge way too much for their wood upgrades, which further diminishes the likelihood that someone will buy it over say, a $900 Winchester rM-70 or CZ 550.

George

quote:

Outfits like Dakota charge way too much for their wood upgrades,

George, at Dakota, anything over Balsa-wood grade is know as "Exhibition" :-)

And it has always been that way.

George

But if you stack balsa next to a piece of English and it is there long enough in the right light it might not look so much like balsa wood. Especially if you paid a lot for it?

Cabelas has a lot of those balsa wood Dakotas right now.

It is a specialized market. There is plenty of money out there.
Post a nice Piotti King 1, 20 ga. out there for $15K in good condition and see how long it lasts.
Fine shotguns is where the money is spent in the used market.

Seems like its soft for anything shooting connected.Just perusing my April The Field& best gun prices dont SEEM as outrageous as in past.Or maybe im just getting impervious to the insanity!

big bore rifles seem to be more of a "personal" decision.

I like the enjoyment of picking out a caliber, then choosing an action and wood. That also helps spread out the amount of money needed at each stage.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
It is a specialized market. There is plenty of money out there.
Post a nice Piotti King 1, 20 ga. out there for $15K in good condition and see how long it lasts.
Fine shotguns is where the money is spent in the used market.

You are talking about a different group of people.

There are lots of folks who shoot birds, like fine shotguns and don't care at all for big game hunting or rifles.

I actually know a lot of folks in DC (mostly Democrats) that have tons of money and spend a lot on shooting birds.

It's a status or privlidge things. Similar to Britain, where until the past 15 or 20 years only red necks hunted deer.

Since I a considering selling my Searcy Deluxe 470, a soft market is not welcome news!

465H&H

New doubles are priced very high, used ones can be had for half the price of a new model. Which is quite a discount on a lot of guns.

Of course a name Brit gun in top shape will always be worth more.

Bad news to the seller but good news to "average" income people like me

quote:

Originally posted by gunslinger55:
Bad news to the seller but good news to "average" income people like me

I was thinking the same thing. I've long wanted, but couldn't justify the purchase in my own mind. (I know, I know.) I've seen a few of my desired rifles drift closer and closer to what I'm willing to pay.

Exactly,

The only market I don't quite understand right now is the drillings and combo guns.

I am kind of over wanting one, but it doesn't matter because the prices have shot through the roof.

Continental double rifles are damn near a bargain now.

quote:

Big Wonderful Wyoming:
New doubles are priced very high, used ones can be had for half the price of a new model.

Look no further than the recent James Julia auction and probably the Rock Island auction tomorrow. Bargain priced British & Continental doubles without the 2-3 year wait. Same thing with vintage custom rifles.

I have lost money on big bore bolt guns, but never lost a dime on a double, in fact I at least doubled my money on every double rifle I have owned..

I think things will lighten up after the next election if ya'll get out an vote this idiot we have running the country like a king, Vote him out of the white house, and get a good Republican in office. Close up our borders, back off the gun legislation, and kick some ass over seas so it will be safer to travel abroad, bring back the Regan years...when taxes go and the government is quite, we all prosper, and the hunt'en is good.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I have lost money on big bore bolt guns, but never lost a dime on a double, in fact I at least doubled my money on every double rifle I have owned..

I think things will lighten up after the next election if ya'll get out an vote this idiot we have running the country like a king, Vote him out of the white house, and get a good Republican in office. Close up our borders, back off the gun legislation, and kick some ass over seas so it will be safer to travel abroad, bring back the Regan years...when taxes go and the government is quite, we all prosper, and the hunt'en is good.

Our current President is term limited, so no worries about another go with Mr. Obama.

Don't bet on it, if he and Holder can stir up a little race war, he can then declare martial law and it will be a bitch to get rid of him any time soon.

So the Obama administration has caused the the the big bore gun prices to decline?

I believe the term is obtuse.

Thank you tygesman for enlightening Ray that the current President can not run again.

Perhaps it is all the "talk" on this sight as to the demise of hunting in Africa. Why buy a "big bore" if one will never be needed.

Owning a "big bore" for many of us was because it was part of the "dream" of hunting Africa someday. With the posts I read, what is the point of dreaming? If it is true that the shit is hitting the fan in Africa.

Shooting a pig in texas with one won't be as fun anymore because the dream is to eventually use in in Africa, right.

Who really knows, I was planning on going to Africa when my children were 12 and 14. Now I'm thinking 10 and 12. which is still 3 years away. I hope i make it in time. I have never been, I may only get to go once, and i want to experience it with my family.

tygersman, please inform birhunter50 that holder is no longer employed the the government also.

Facts are hard for some people to understand.

Here in New Zealand it is a very small market.

I tried to sell my CZ 416 Rigby after owning it for 2 years and shooting 250 rounds. For 3 months I go no bites.

Then I split the auction - put the rifle & rings on ans made a note that I could do a deal on the scope, dies, cases, bullets etc. One guy bought it right out & agreed to take all the bits at my price.

Strangely I was also trying to sell my Simson 9.3X62 for 3 months & that sold on the same day as the Rigby!

Interesting question. I have sensed things have cooled quite a bit in the big bore market.

Factors contributing:

- economy

- ban/closure of elephant hunting in popular hunting countries like Bots, Zim, etc.

- continued/increasing hassle of traveling to Africa with a firearm, ie. US Customs new requirements, byzantine and ever changing laws for importing rifles into certain African countries

- unfriendly airline rules for traveling with firearms

- Aging hunter demographics

Those are just a few I can come up with off the top of my head.

I hunted in Cameroon and followed the outfitters advice to ease the travel/import hassles and use his rifle. It certainly made my trip and clearing customs much simpler. So why go out and buy/build another rifle for that trip? Or the next?

If the new norm is to use outfitter supplied guns or if our opportunities to hunt dangerous game continue to diminish, why buy a rifle you will rarely use in the Staes?

I think the next few years will be telling. We were making huge gains a few years ago with new opportunities in Africa appearing regularly for game and new countries opening. It seems the opposite is true today. I am not sure if it is political or a swing in demographics. Either way, I don't know how many millennials will be looking to buy my Jack Haugh .500 Jeffery or Wm. Evans .450-400... time will tell.

Just my $.02 and worth exactly that...

From every firearms manufacturer I have talked to the past decade and a half, the consensus is that at least 90% of the .375 and up bolt rifles they sell will leave the continental-48, and never hunt big game, as we define it here.

An awful lot of people just want one to shoot every now and then, or to woof about it to their friends.

I bought my first over-forty caliber rifle in 1978. From John Buhmiller at his shop when I visited him. It was a 460 Buhmiller on a Remington Enfield. The 458 caliber was based on the 416 Rigby necked-up to 458.

I own five now, 375 H&H and bigger. They are just fun to shoot.

did you mean "never leave the lower 48"? it makes some sense if read that way

Slim,
That's a pretty bleak view of the future of hunting in Africa, but you may be right. I just hope that our hunting rights are not suspended over here.
You are correct that Eric Holder is no longer the Attorney General, but he has been replaced Loretta Lynch who is just as bad and will follow the "progressive line of thought", and I'm being generous calling that.
If you want something to worry over and complain about, how about the fact that a bunch of Communists has taken over the running and downfall of our country under the guise of being progressive. The only thing progressive about them is that they are getting progressively worse.
My apology goes out to LJS, I did not mean to highjack your post. As far as large doubles go, there is still a good market for proper doubles in large calibers, I don't know about the bolt guns.

Personally, it's the ever increasing price of Elephant and Cape Buffalo hunts that stops me from buying a double rifle. I have a Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby that has basically become a safe queen. I guess I've been lucky to take two Cape Buffalo and three Elephants (all non export Bulls).

Elephant hunting is my favorite type of hunting, but the prices are ridiculous. I can't see buying a nice double rifle and not using it for hunting.

For me, Rich, (Idaho Sharpshooter) described it as good as any, in reference to those who own a big bore, double or otherwise, and will never hunt Africa. They're just fun to shoot. My two doubles were bought a long time ago when they were cheaper and my disposable income considerably higher than now. The other big bores I have owned were either bolt rifles or Ruger #1's, none of which reached custom or collector status. For them I worked up a reduced, cast bullet load and used them locally or on the hunting trips I made to other states.

I thoroughly enjoy the big bores but as mentioned in my first post, can't play in the high end park. They are so just so much fun for an inveterate, experimenting handloader.

Did I miss the price cuts at Holland & Holland?!