I just got the new Jamison price list and they show brass for a .375 and .408 CheyTac". I am not familiar with these cartridges. Can anyone tell me what they are?

Dave

If you look up CheyTac under the find button you will see several threads.
You'll find more there but as I understand it, it was developed as a long range sniper round.

Dave,


It is a very large +40cal cartridge designed for soft targets at outrageous ranges. The round was said to stay supersonic to 2600 yards. Cheyenne Tactical designed the round, EDM Arms made the first rifles for it called "the Windrunner" which was a takedown affair and Lost River Ballistic Technologies made some solid bullets with very high B.C.'s. I seem to remember a feud between EDM and Barret over the 416Barrett vs. The .408 Chey-Tac. Anyway it goes, might be an interesting round to play with if bullet selection was to become better than it currently is. In my experience, rounds like the 408, 338-378, 338-50bmg, and the 416 Barrett among others, are best left to their intended purpose of long distance sniping and anti-material work and kept out of the hunting fields. But then again, I have used rounds like those mentioned with some success. If any of you have more experience with this round, or my memory has gotten the details wrong, please chime in and correct me.

Joe

The old Cheytac had some very questionable management practices. Enough so, a lot of people will not buy Cheytac rifles now. It reminded me of what Leitner-Wise did a few years earlier.

EDM got shafted by Cheytac. Cheytac never paid their bill last I heard.

After all the talk and hoopla, nothing significant seems to have come from what Cheytac did. Individuals seem to be having good success with the 375 variants but, the 408's seem to be languishing in obscurity for the most part.

The Chey-Tac is just another obscure attempt to make a better, more accurate, lower recoil answer to a non-existant problem. i.e how to make a better .50BMG. Sorry but the .50BMG has been solving those problems for nearly 100yrs.
.408 high BC bullet on a proprietary thick web 505 gibbs case as I remember. Never was impressed enough to pay much attention to it. -Rob

The 416 barret round is head and shoulders superior to the chey tac.in terms of ballistics, of couse. its based oin a shortened 50 BMG case, the chey tac on an abbreviated 505 gibbs case. the chet tac may be more "practical" , whatever that means for a super long range sniper round (most of us dopnt snipe at more than a mile)

Rob,

What were you thoughts on that Windrunner rifle from an engineering point of view. I have a real issue with my precision sniper rifle coming in a multitude of pieces and when fully assembled, looking like a 12 year old's erector set project.

Joe

Any idea that the .408 Cheyenne Tactical is more practical than the .416 Barrett is questionable.

High pressures are required for the 408CT to underwhelm the 416B ballistics.

Both rifles will require a 50BMG-capable action to be safe regarding bolt thrust.

Of course one could build a 408CT on a CZ 550 Magnum action just for laughs, and further underwhelm its ballistics with lower pressure loads.

.375 Chey Tac?
Is not the 378 Wby too vicious for the average bear?
Booboo Bear better build his .375 Chey Tac on a 50BMG-capable action too, if he wants to impress Goldilocks.

And then there is the ".338 Extreme Tactical" (or some such) that is a .338/505 Gibbs ...

David Vieres at black diamond rifles makes very similar rounds . I have one of his 338 sniper tactical guns. It is a 408 chey tac necked down to 338. It will push a 300 grain bullet to 3450 ft/sec at the muzzle and is good out to 2500 yds if the shooter is capable. My gun has a 32" graphite light weight barrel and weighs 11.5 lbs including a 5x22x50 nightforce scope. David makes some very accurate rifles, but like most custom stuff, it is not cheap. The 416 barret will give a little more power, but it weighs 25 lbs.

Joe Miller- I'm with you! I looked at EDM and even talked to the guy at a Gun show. I think its aimed at the AR-15 crowd more than for the precision shooting group. They were going for $6K too.Not impressed! Never saw one do anything better than 10" groups in FCSA competition at 1000yrds most ran 15-16". BTW I also never actually saw a .408 Chey Tac or a .416 Barret outshoot a Mcmillan .50BMG Bolt Gun either. Quite the contrary in fact. At 1000yrds and beyond with a good gun and match ammo it really comes down to the shooters REAL experience particularily in windy conditions( Why is it that the wind always blows hard when I shoot those ranges?). Lets see, 60 inches of drift ( 800gr Borerider at 2650fps)into a 20MPH crosswind? Bullet drop at that range? You'll need to use a specially inclined bench to even get close. Yup, you too can make headshots at 2600yrds everytime. Truth is you'd be lucky at 2600yrds to be in the vicinity of the target.
Best advice is stick with .50BMG and use the money for more trigger time. .408 Cheytac on life support and clinically braindead. Finally, when you burn hughe amounts of powder through small holes, there is something called the Plasma torch effect. .375 rounds on .50BMG cases usually have barrel lives in the 300-400 round range. I'd estimate a .408 Cheytac will last 600 rds before its barrel looks just like the craters on the moon. My own K&P match .50BMG has 1300 rds through the barrel and is officially Toast! Accuracy started to go at 1000rds-Rob

Dave Bush,
In case your really interested, the .408 CheyTac is a necked down .505 Gibbs case, whereas the .416 Barrett uses the necked down and skightly shortened .50 BMG case, as mentioned previously.

Cheyenne Tactical 408

necked down 505 gibbs, heavy walled, meant for long rang shooting

man/myth/machine are subject of opinion

Thanks guys!

I guess what makes the .408 CheyTac more "practial" than the big 50 is that it can be built on a smaller, lighter action. In my honest opinion it somehow fills the "gap" between the .338 Lapua and the .50 BMG, if there ever was a "gap" that needed to be filled. I have actually pondered this conversion on a Ruger Magnum action but will probably settle on a .338 RUM imp. due to brass cost and mag alteration problems.

It is my understanding they both were deveoloped to give shooters in states Like CA who have outlawed the 50 something that works at long range. So if you can't own a 50 one gets a 416 or 408 to give good down range preformance.

So what gun, scope and load are our guys running in Afghanistan?

The military likes its .50Cal Barrett M82a1's and Tactical Mcmillan Bolt guns mostly for long range medium hard targets like communications gear etc and anti-personell as well as IED demolition. The Barrets are usually used at well under 1000yrds, because they are not very accurate past 700 yrds. Last I saw they were running the usual loads of a 750 Amax at about 2700fps at that altitude. The Mcmillans are good for well past 1000yrds IF the guy behind the trigger and his spotter can do their stuff. Remember, they get to dial in their shots . 200-700 yrds is owned by bolt action .308's and accurized M14 systems like the M21. The M4 carbine still rules in close. Others may feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
My personal opinion is the Chey tack and Barrett .416 were developed not for any Ca legal issues, but to make good use of the knowledge that very long for caliber bullets have unbelievably high BC and thus will tend to deliver great accuracy, minimal wind drift and high retained energy way out there. The problem is you need velocity to make the numbers work. If you use a relatively small case like the .505 Gibbs you need very high pressures. Thus, the thick walled .505 Gibbs needed to be manufactured for the reported 70Kpsi of the .408 Cheytac. You guys who want to build one better have an action suitable for that pressure range or your better off with a .338 RUM IMP! In the .416 Barret they said screw the small case, use a plentiful .50BMG and neck it down. This way you can run lower pressures. The trade off is burn more powder through a smaller hole and barrel life goes away quickly.
You can go larger than .50BMG like 20mm and get way better ballistics, but its now way too heavy and usually crew served.
Nope, I think ol John Browning got it right with the .50BMG 100 yrs ago and The FCSA taught the military about bullet design. There are only a few things as accurate as a .50BMG with good bullets at 1000yrds. -Rob

Thanks Rob. Are they also mounting the big 30mm Nightforce scopes?

Nigthforce 30mm scopes ( 24x and 32x) have proven their durability on .50BMG's and are the best choice IMHO. The military snipers know what they are doing and stay away from stuff that will break, which is everything else in scopes, although I hear US OPTICS makes some scopes for .50BMG's that stay together. I think I've seen some pics of these on mIlitary Mcmillans. Some military snipers use the Leupold M3, but in my mind there is no comparison to the Nightforce scopes. The scope mounts tend to be Badger and the rails have the required elevation necessary for 1000 yrds build in. Its flat amazing what one of these rigs can do "OFF THE GROUND" with a good spotter. Hitting a man at 1000yrds with a good spotter should be doable within two rds. At 2600yrds I'd feel pretty safe actually!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:Thus, the thick walled .505 Gibbs needed to be manufactured for the reported 70Kpsi of the .408 Cheytac.

Where are you getting these pressures? All I've seen lists max as 63800psi.

And it has good barrel life.
Dean Michaels stated around 3500rounds with the 375 CheyTac.

They CheyTacs are much lighter (aren't you one of those who advocate light guns ), has a longer range and less recoil than the .50 BMG.

Cardinal- Dont believe everything you read in a advertisement!Ive seen data indicating its pushing 70Kpsi for that cartridge to attain PUBLISHED velocities. SMOKE and MIRRORS! You dont think a company with their somewhat shady management practices could have massaged the data just a little to keep the dead horse alive do you? Gee std 505Gibbs cases are good to 65Kpsi why did they have to modify the brass? In fact brass rairly fails below 85KPSI wonder why they went to all that expense? BTW, 110degrees heat like in the desert changes 65KPSI to 70KPSI in a hurry! Good barrel life? Sorry- Look down the barrel with a scope after 100rds. Ever see the Craters on the moon! I had one here whose owner wanted me to figure out why it lost accuracy! 3500 rds? Just calculate how much powder got burned through that tube. Did the bullets fly sideways? Wanna bet how much was stovepipe?
Sorry if you misunderstoiod me. -Light guns are for hunting. Heavy usually works better at long range. AS for recoil, try shooting a Unlimited class .50MG the recoil is far less than a Cheytac! Do the math then believe what you want. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Ive seen data showing 70Kpsi for that cartridge to attain PUBLISHED velocities. Good barrel life? Sorry- Look down the barrel with a scope after 100rds. Ever see the Craters on the moon! I had one here whose owner wanted me to figure out why it lost accuracy! 3500 rds? Just calculate how much powder got burned through that tube. Wanna bet how much was stovepipe?
Sorry -Light guns are for hunting. Heavy usually works better at long range. -Rob

Rob, I base it on reports from users of these calibers and NOT advertisements!. Dean Michaels/Triggerfifty are one of the originals who developed the CheyTac. His round count with these calibers, exceeds 100k! About the 375/408 he stated: "At 3050 fps, which is what I recommend using 131.0 gr. of RE-25 and Fed 215 M primers, you should get 3000 rounds at a minimum."

I'll take his (and other shooters on Snipershide) experience with these calibers over your conjecture/theories, sorry.


Other comments:

quote:

ON the subject of 408 brass. Guys should not assume that this round is based on the 505 Gibbs case. IT IS NOT. The outside dimensions are roughly the same, the case head size is the same, but the web thickness, flashhole dimensions, shoulder angles, and of course the neck diameter, neck tension, neck thickness, and a few more items are quite different. If you neck down .505 Gibbs cases and shoot them ( as some sad souls have done ), you will rupture the cases, have case head separation, blowback, possible chamber ruptures, etc. DO NOT USE 505 GIBBS BRASS!

Don't worry, the 338 Lapua, back in the mid 80s when it was the 338/416 went through these same growing pains. It took 12 years or so for the 338/416 to become more popular once Lapua put their nametag to the deal. I have photos of one of the first guns built in 338/416 by Earl Reddick (former SWC armorer and gun engineer, later worked for Daisy, later for RAD, designs went to Aurora in Arkansas). The early brass was built by Sandia National Labs, sent to a couple of units in plain white boxes and brass w/o headstamps. The bullets that we saw were made by Hornady, but were over sized and caused high pressure problems. Gun shot just fine, we were folding 1/2 steel sihlouettes at 600 yards, but had to "tap" the bolt handles open with a plastic hammer. The same guys that were on the range during some of those shoots called the gun awesome, which it was, but later in 2002, called the 408 a "piece of crap" because of "high pressure" signs, which there weren't, but they were going off of visual signs, not case head expansion measurements. I ramble... sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder: AS for recoil, try shooting a Unlimited class .50MG the recoil is far less than a Cheytac! Do the math then believe what you want. -Rob

Are you claiming a 50lbs unlimited 50 recoils less than a 50lbs cheytac?
ANd, how many SOF units are using Unlimited class 50 in the sandbox?

.50 at 27 lbs with a 750gr bullet at 2700 (230gr powder) gives 72.6ftlbs in recoil and 13.2 fps in velocity
a 17 lbs 375 Cheytac with 350gr @ 3050 and 131gr powder, 34.8fltlbs and 11.5 fps..........
(muzzlebrake efficiency 50% in both cases)


And 10 lbs less to carry is very nice....

Cardinal- Give me a break- Not based on the .505 Gibbs, What a load of CRAP! I saw that case when it was first being shopped around it was and is simply a beefed up .505Gibbs! Sorry they didn't invent a new Case they just used a existing case and made it stronger for the increased pressures and because the tooling existed at Jamison. Do you own a .375 CHEY TAC or a .408 Chey Tac? Have you shot 3500 rds through it? Oh yeah, I forgot 100K! Please dont tell me about other guys experience. Tell me about yours? You have none? then STFU! IF you have experience post a picture of YOUR gun and the best 1000 yrd targets YOU have personally shot with it. Not someone elses target YOURs! I can Post Mine just to be fair! I've shot FCSA .50BMG for 15 years and put thousands of rounds downrange at 1000yrds and way way beyond that. Thus, I'm entitled to have a OPINION! I've shot one .408 Chey tac and was not impressed! They simply modded the case dimensions to deal with the increased pressures needed! WOW that was real good thinking! How many SOF units carrying 17lb .375 CheyTacs in the sandbox? Answer None outside of some testing perhaps. How do you know what weight Mcmillans they are carrying either? Some were built at 40 lbs that I know of personally. I was simply making the point that recoil is a function of weight and a .50BMG can be made to have minimal recoil. Ther are other things that can be done to reduce recoil to minimal levels besides muzzel brakes too. There are lots of women at FCSA matches ( weighing less tha 125lbs) shooting light guns <26.5lbs "OFF the ground" who dont seem to mind the terrible recoil of the .50BMG. They are pretty good too! Thats about the weight of a Barrett M82. There is a time and place for light weight in a gun and sorry long range target shooting or sniping really isnt it despite what Chey Tac would like you to believe. BTW, my 12GafH( Note: Just a Modified .50BMG case also shoots a 350gr bullets at 3000 fps with only 140grs of powder. OUT of a $300 NEF! Bet it hits harder than a .375 Chey Tac under 200yrds too! Weighs only 10lbs with scope. LETS GO SNIPING!-ROB

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Cardinal- How many SOF units carrying 17lb .375 CheyTacs in the sandbox? Answer-NONE! I was simply making the point that recoil is a function of weight and a .50BMG can be made to have minimal recoil.

You sure? USMC have some CheyTac .408s for testing (according to Lightfighter Forums)....
M200 NSN 1005-01-515-5774
A lot of "special" units have been using out of the ordinary rifles, like a USMC sniper who appeared on TV with an AI AW in Fallujah


Yes and my point is that Cheytac of equal weight will have LESS recoil. Or you can go to a lighter gun without surpassing the recoil of 50.

http://www.snipershide.com/for...umber=500365&fpart=1
http://www.snipershide.com/for...arch=true#Post500963

http://www.snipershide.com/for...arch=true#Post488298

"These are some pics of an early M200 Carbine. It had a 25" barrel, which was carbon wrapped and had a mountin ring on a steel shoulder on the carbon barrel for an OPSINC can. Great gun, mine had over 8000 rounds on it before it became a bigger than 1 minute gun."


But I guess you think he is a liar.....

quote:

Yes and my point is that Cheytac of equal weight will have LESS recoil. Or you can go to a lighter gun without surpassing the recoil of 50.

So will a .22LR! so what! Oh yeah I believe a suppressed .375 Chey Tac at 8000 rds is leass than a MOA. I believe in the tooth fairy too! Ask your Forum Buddies to post a picture of the insides of the barrel please! You know Borescope picture!
I did correct my post to say that some testing may be going on.Thats what happened with the Rem 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel so I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED. However testing is different than adopting it as a standard arm! Mcmillans and Barrets are std. Got news for you but 30-70ft-lbs or recoil isnt much of a problem for anyone either! I also have the news that reasonable levels of recoil is not an issue in long range shooting period. Figuring the bullet drop, wind( especially), mirage etc are far bigger problems.
A lighter gun is not a value in long range shooting! Heavy guns settle better and move around less! I suggest you go out and shoot these guns yourself and not just read the forums. I'll be happy to let you shoot my unlimited .50BMG any time your in Vegas( recoils like a .22LR) you will amazed! Then you can shoot my 27lb Mcmillan. You will shoot worse with it and not because of the difference in recoil! I'd be happy to have you shoot a .408 Chey Tac too. You be the judge! Gotta leave for now and actually go shoot my poor mans 12GaFH Chey Tac! -Rob