quote:

Originally posted by thirdbite:

quote:

I have photos of a standard Winchester M70 opened up for the 375H&H and the front ramp area looks to have had identical work done as my Mauser 404.

Doesn't the M70 have only one standard length action that requires only removal of spacer at rear of mag box, and opening of the rear bridge for ejection as well as changing bolt stop in order to convert to 375 length cartridges? I don't understanding why it would need lengthening at the front of the action.

Was a pre-64 Winny, perhaps only opened up to suit the monos as shown.

Here's pictures of the 404 Jeff action next to a Whitworth Mauser 375 H&H action.

Anything can be fixed if you have the bucks. What I see can be fixed, welded up and started all over including softening and rehardening the action, rebarrel or cut the barrel back and rechamber perhaps but not likely...

It boils down to costs, and I dont' see it in the rifle pictured..Might change my mind with gun in lap..but probably not as it would be cheaper to buy another barreled action.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by thirdbite:

quote:

I have photos of a standard Winchester M70 opened up for the 375H&H and the front ramp area looks to have had identical work done as my Mauser 404.

Doesn't the M70 have only one standard length action that requires only removal of spacer at rear of mag box, and opening of the rear bridge for ejection as well as changing bolt stop in order to convert to 375 length cartridges? I don't understanding why it would need lengthening at the front of the action.

Was a pre-64 Winny, perhaps only opened up to suit the monos as shown.

Hey, hey, that is my rifle and those are my pictures, amazingly still showing up from Photopucker.
It holds 4 down in the box plus 1 in the chamber, a .395 H&H Five-Shooter.
It devours those S&H FN solids with gusto.

I can vouch for this.
That is a 1958 vintage Pre-64 Winchester M70 action that started off as a 300 H&H. Found in a used gun rack in Tallahassee, FL about 1989. I still have the 300 H&H take-off barrel and could switch it back at any time.

About 1990, It was rebarreled, at my request, to .375 H&H by a Gunsmith in Tallahassee, Florida named Walt Sherman.
IIRC, nothing was required in the way of "feed job." The 300 H&H donor rifle fed the .375 H&H cartridges just fine.

After 2 years of Alaskan resident hunting and 2 weeks in Botswana in 2001, it was subsequently rebarreled to .395 H&H.
Nothing was required to make that feed well also.
The only possible thing done was polishing of feed surfaces, unbeknownst to me.

So I still have the 300 H&H and .375 H&H take-off barrels and could switch it back at any time, but will leave it as a .395 H&H for now.

Another story:
The 30-06-length 270 WCF M70 Classic that I converted to .375 H&H box length,
for my 400 Whelen-Petrov-Berry of 2013,
only required removal of the spacer at the rear of the box, and work on the ejector/bolt-stop to function properly with the longer C.O.L.
I did all this "opening up of the M70" myself, first time for me, self-taught gunsmith, so you know it doesn't take much work,
to go from 30-06 length to .375 H&H length
with a standard Winchester M70.
I.e., it is a blocked off .375 H&H, just needs unblocking.
Subsequently I fitted a Duane Wiebe XRM box instead of the factory sheetmetal.

So, yes, I repeat, the old standard M70 Winchester required no "opening up."
It is .375 H&H length to start with and is blocked off to 30-06-length by a spacer at the rear of the magazine box.

Some of the new-fangled, short-actioned, Winchester M70 actions do exist for those silly little WSMs and such ...
A WSM action would take some work to open up to .375 H&H.

Rip
.

Sorry RIP I hadn't realised they were your pictures, I actually saved them a few years back probably from a post you had done here somewhere.

I've always looked at my Oberndorf Sporter especially the feed ramp area and thought mmmmm!!!, just wonder how much strength is lost, if any, by cutting into and off the feed ramp.

Although that is your rifle, I respectfully say it has had some work done on the feed ramp and the magazine well lengthened, probably when opened up for the 300H&H as it was when you bought it.

All feed ramps I have seen on 'factory' rifles have a good flat section on the front edge of the feed ramp where the bottom bolt lug seats. In the photo of your feed ramp you can see the remnants of this on the left hand side but then it has been feathered to a sharp edge with a double scallop shape across the rest of the ramp. Your feed ramp is also very short indicating the magazine well has been lengthened by machining away some of the feed ramp. The whole feed ramp length, sharp edge, scallops and even to the lack of bluing is absolutely identical to my Mauser and it has definitely been worked on at the front of the magazine well feed ramp area. You would think the same gunsmith has worked on both rifles. Have a look at the photo below.

Type A Mauser feed ramp area opened up for the 404 Jeffery.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Sorry RIP I hadn't realised they were your pictures, I actually saved them a few years back probably from a post you had done here somewhere.

I've always looked at my Oberndorf Sporter especially the feed ramp area and thought mmmmm!!!, just wonder how much strength is lost, if any, by cutting into and off the feed ramp.

Although that is your rifle, I respectfully say it has had some work done on the feed ramp and the magazine well lengthened, probably when opened up for the 300H&H as it was when you bought it.



You are mistaken.
It was a factory M70 300 H&H made in 1958 by serial number check.
I have the factory roll-stamped 300 H&H take-off barrel, and the original stock.
I also have a factory 30-06 Springfield Winchester M70 made in 1952 for comparison.
You are mistaken.
Did I make myself clear?
You are wrong!

It is preposterous to think of opening up the magazine well of a standard length M70,
to make it fit a 300 H&H or .375 H&H!
If mine had been a 30-06, which it was not, even then,
all that would have been required was to remove the spacer welded into the rear of the box.
The magazine well is already long enough for 300 H&H even on a 30-06 Springfield Winchester M70.
Definitely no cobbling to shorten the feed ramp and undercut the locking lug is needed,
unless lengthening the M70 magazine well to 3.8" as for the .416 Rigby.
For either 30-06 or .375 H&H that magazine well length is the same, 3.6", just as it came from the factory.
BTW, the best way to pop out that spacer at the back of the sheet metal magazine box of an M70 Winchester
is to drill out the four little spot welds that hold the spacer in place.
Look at one and it will be obvious how to proceed.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Sorry RIP I hadn't realised they were your pictures, I actually saved them a few years back probably from a post you had done here somewhere.

I've always looked at my Oberndorf Sporter especially the feed ramp area and thought mmmmm!!!, just wonder how much strength is lost, if any, by cutting into and off the feed ramp.

Although that is your rifle, I respectfully say it has had some work done on the feed ramp and the magazine well lengthened, probably when opened up for the 300H&H as it was when you bought it.



You are mistaken.
It was a factory M70 300 H&H made in 1958 by serial number check.
I have the factory roll-stamped 300 H&H take-off barrel, and the original stock.
I also have a factory 30-06 Springfield Winchester M70 made in 1952 for comparison.
You are mistaken.
Did I make myself clear?
You are wrong!

It is preposterous to think of opening up the magazine well of a standard length M70,
to make it fit a 300 H&H or .375 H&H!
If mine had been a 30-06, which it was not, even then,
all that would have been required was to remove the spacer welded into the rear of the box.
The magazine well is already long enough for 300 H&H even on a 30-06 Springfield Winchester M70.
Definitely no cobbling to shorten the feed ramp and undercut the locking lug is needed,
unless lengthening the M70 magazine well to 3.8" as for the .416 Rigby.
For either 30-06 or .375 H&H that magazine well length is the same, 3.6", just as it came from the factory.
BTW, the best way to pop out that spacer at the back of the sheet metal magazine box of an M70 Winchester
is to drill out the four little spot welds that hold the spacer in place.
Look at one and it will be obvious how to proceed.

Rip
.

Anyone got a photo of a factory M70 feed ramp area we could look at. I will gladly accept I'm mistaken if an untouched M70 feed ramp looks like the one in the photo. I just cannot imagine an untouched M70 will have a feed ramp as shown in the photo. It is identical to my Mauser and mine is definitely not how it came from the Mauser factory, it is classic of an altered feed ramp to fit a larger cartridge.

PS. I actually asked the question about the feed ramp on your original post (you didn't answer) and then saved a couple of the pictures as I was interested to see such a feed ramp on a M70 and thought if Winchester or a gunsmith who MAY have made the change to the feed ramp were happy with that then I had no concern with my Mauser having the identical profile to the feed ramp on your M70.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/660101779/p/10

Maybe these discussions answer some questions especially the second.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=349100672#349100672

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=945104007#945104007

I am neither a gunsmith nor an expert on Pre 64 Winchesters. Now I do have an obsession with and almost exclusively use Pre War Mod 70s.

I am confused as to the "welded bar" statement. Is that a reference to the "Classics," in which the action openings are the same and the spacers differ in the boxes. I attached a pic of the magnum length box on top (one indent) and a standard length box (two indent) showing the differences in the boxes- no bar.

I have also attached pics of an unmolested Pre War "long" magnum action (on the right and blued). It was a 375 H&H. On the left and in the white is a modified "standard" action. The std was a .30-06.

In addition to using unmolested long H&H actions, I have had 2 "std" length Pre war Mod 70 actions converted- one by Jack Belk into a 7 mm Rem with a LW barrel and the other by Jim DuBell into a 300 Win also a LW barrel (the one shown in the white).

Originally, all they did was simply open up the bolt face, nothing done to the rails or ramp. Function and feeding was fine.

Even though the 7 mm Rem/300 Win cartridges fit in a std magazine box I subsequently had the bottom of the actions opened up by Jim Kobe a couple of years ago in order to allow the longer H&H box to "slip in." I did this as I reload and wanted some breathing room in order to accommodate todays longer monometal bullets. I sent Jim Kobe the actions including the original H&H one the right as a template.

In my rifles, the differences between how the two different boxes fit in the action is near the breach, not the rear part of the action. The front of the action is open between the two rails in the H&H, whereas IIRC the std action had solid metal connecting the two rails, completing a "box."

Regardless, the ramps are shown. The original unmolested long action has a factory notch, the converted does not.

The long preamble is a shameless plug- as I want to give kudos every opportunity I get to Jim Kobe, who does outstanding work and with unbelievable turnaround times! His custom Talley bases on the 7 mm Rem.

IMG_2110
IMG_2107
IMG_2106
IMG_2108

FNC,
Real nicely done. smart move also.

FMC,

Thanks for the photos.
I do not post photos anymore until Photopucker says I can resume "third-party linking."
But apparently my old postings are still showing up here, even when copied and re-posted by other members.
That is cool.
Photopucker can do as they like with those.

I am no gunsmith either, and sometimes I get my ass confused with my elbow over Winchester M70s:
Apologies for mixing in the Classic with the Pre-64 actions.
The welded-in spacer at the rear of the box refers to the post-1990 Winchester M70 Classic actions.
The bottom action opening is the same for 30-06 and .375 H&H in the M70 Classics I have.
Spot-welded spacer is at the rear of the sheet metal box for 30-06.

However, no change to my main point in response to question about my Pre-64:

It does appear that my Pre-64 Winchester M70 300 H&H came from the factory the way it is.
No feed job.
No opening up of the action's bottom opening.
No cutting on the feed ramp was done except at the Winchester factory.

That is my only point, for eagle27.

The .375 H&H fed just fine in the unaltered Pre-64 Winchester M70 action that started off as a 300 H&H
from the Winchester factory.
It was so good to start with that it now feeds FN solids as a .395 H&H also.
It is on its third barrel now.
No feed work has been done to it.

If it ever gets a 4th barrel it will be a .423"-grooved one for a straight-tapered "404 H&H."
I bet it will feed those too, with spitzers and round noses,
though a .423-caliber FN solid might be on the verge of needing a feed job.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
FMC,

Thanks for the photos.
I do not post photos anymore until Photopucker says I can resume "third-party linking."
But apparently my old postings are still showing up here, even when copied and re-posted by other members.
That is cool.
Photopucker can do as they like with those.

I am no gunsmith either, and sometimes I get my ass confused with my elbow over Winchester M70s:
Apologies for mixing in the Classic with the Pre-64 actions.
The welded-in spacer at the rear of the box refers to the post-1990 Winchester M70 Classic actions.
The bottom action opening is the same for 30-06 and .375 H&H in the M70 Classics I have.
Spot-welded spacer is at the rear of the sheet metal box for 30-06.

However, no change to my main point in response to question about my Pre-64:

It does appear that my Pre-64 Winchester M70 300 H&H came from the factory the way it is.
No feed job.
No opening up of the action's bottom opening.
No cutting on the feed ramp was done except at the Winchester factory.

That is my only point, for eagle27.

The .375 H&H fed just fine in the unaltered Pre-64 Winchester M70 action that started off as a 300 H&H
from the Winchester factory.
It was so good to start with that it now feeds FN solids as a .395 H&H also.
It is on its third barrel now.
No feed work has been done to it.

If it ever gets a 4th barrel it will be a .423"-grooved one for a straight-tapered "404 H&H."
I bet it will feed those too, with spitzers and round noses,
though a .423-caliber FN solid might be on the verge of needing a feed job.

Rip
.

RIP, I appreciate your continued discussion on this subject. I have never said that your pre64 M70 was opened up by you or your gunsmith. I have only made the point that the action has been lengthened to take a longer cartridge than the standard 'o6 length and that the feed ramp has been altered. It appears from the discussions in the earlier threads, and if noting the comments from Bill Leeper from the second thread I posted the link to, that Winchester themselves opened up or lengthened their pre64 actions to take the longer cartridge, 300H&H. The pre64 was only produced in standard length.

Quote from Bill Leeper in the second thread and link I posted earlier -
"That looks like a fairly typical 300H&H M70 action to me. When Winchester lengthened the M70 to take the 300 H&H, that is how they did it. They opened it to the front. Regards, Bill."

This has been my only point, it doesn't matter who did the opening up of the action but it was done and your pre 64 definitely shows that. All the more so if your pre64 came from the factory like it is now it gives me 'comfort' that the work done on the feed ramp of my Mauser to take the larger 404 Jeffery cartridge is no more radical than Winchester did on their own pre64 standard length actions.

In summary, you have a pre64 M70 Winchester that has been modified from a standard action to take the longer 300H&H cartridge. To do this the front feed ramp has been modified from the original ramp, albeit by the Winchester factory in the same manner in which many standard M98 Mausers are altered to take longer cartridges. The only difference being some question or are concerned about the remaining strength of lengthened Mausers but don't seem to be concerned enough to question the same modification when done to the Winchester.

This question of strength when lengthening a Mauser action came up about halfway into this thread, that is why I brought the M70 into the discussion. I am sorry it happened to be your rifle, it was not my intention to be critical of anyone else's rifle, but for the purposes of the discussion it is good to have comparisons.

eagle27,

You are spot on.

Rip
.

I'm not sure this is pertinent or not. But the pre64 action was originally intended to except the .300 & .375 H&H cartridges. Whether they did some milling to make them actually fit I don't know.

One of the improvements Winchester made was to stretch the new classic action by something like 3/8" compared the older action so nothing is needed to fit these long cartridges other than magazine box changes. Looking at my classic Safari Express .375 and comparing it to my other new m70's I don't see any difference in the feed ramp which confirms what I said. I don't have a pre64 to compare it to though to see if the feed ramps are different.

Yes, the standard Mauser M98 and the Pre-'64 M70 are essentially the same length action.
Both need similar operations done on them to fit a .375 H&H length cartridge.

The Pre-'64 M70 design lasted only 28 years on the market. Design was complete in 1934, production was delayed, delivery/shipment started Aug. 14 1936, Otteson says.

Stuart Otteson, THE BOLT ACTION, Ch. 7, "Pre-'64 Winchester Model 70," p.100:

"While there was only one basic size, there were three basic Model 70 receivers.
A standard version for all cartridges except the belted-head magnums,
a second for the short magnums with a widened magazine well,
and a third for the H&H magnums with the magazine well lengthened by cutting forward into the lower locking seat."

Expertly done at the factory for the 300 H&H and .375 H&H, eh?

At a glance, it's tough to compare an M98 to an M70,
regarding lengths of actions, and how they were opened to the front,
it's apples to oranges.
Ergo gestum:
Receiver length overall: The post-war M70 has an extended tang ...
Center-to-center on the action screws: the M70 front action screw goes into the flat behind the recoil lug,
not into the recoil lug like an M98,
though the Pre-'64 M70 recoil lug is at the very front edge of the receiver,
and the M98 recoil lug is back from that location ...
Et cetera.


But, FWIW, from Otteson:

Mauser M98, standard:
Receiver overall length: 8.74"
Length of loading/ejection port: 3.08"
Recoil lug clearance from magazine: 0.95"
Magazine length: 3.32" (max cartridge length)

Winchester Pre'-64 M70, standard/30-06 action:
Receiver overall length: 9.14" (pre-war cloverleaf-style tang --- 8.77")
Length of loading/ejection port: 3.14"
Recoil lug clearance from magazine: 1.31"
Magazine length: .30-06 Springfield --- 3.40"
................. .375 H&H --- 3.63"

Of course those Pre-'64 M70s that were opened up at the factory,
and the standard Mauser M98s that are opened up after the factory,
both have various adjustments to the ejection ports, rear bridges,
scope-base hole spacing, front ring cut-outs for bullet nose clearance,
bolt stops, ejectors, ET CETERA!

Otteson Ch. 15, "Winchester Model 70 (1968 Version)" p.214:

"The Model 54 and the pre-World War II Model 70 receivers were 8-3/4" long.
In 1947, a new tang shape changed this to 9-1/8".
The new Model 70 is 9-1/4" long.
Magazine well length is now standard at 3.72",
with magazine blocking used for all cartridges except the .375 H&H.
The pre-'64 receivers were dimensioned around the .30-06, with 3.50" long magazine well.
Magazine blocking was used for shorter cartridges,
while the lower locking seat was milled forward to make a 3.70" long magazine well for the H&H cartridges."

Now to look for the comparison numbers on the Winchester M70 Classic from CT,
and just to be sure, the latest ones from SC and Portugal ... THE LONGEST ACTION,
not the WSM or WSSM actions.
Sumbuddy who know?



New Haven started making and selling the CRF M70 again in 1992. I thought it was before 1994.
They just started calling it the "Classic" in 1994.

I found a note from Chuck Hawks about that:

"In 1992 Winchester again revised the Model 70 action, this time restoring the full length extractor,
receiver mounted ejector, coned breech, and controlled round feed (CRF)
while retaining the other good features of the push feed Model 70 action.
The new, revised action became the heart of the Classic models,
available in many variations, which now constitute the bulk of the Model 70 line.
There are super-short, short and standard length Model 70 Classic actions."

http://chuckhawks.com/win_70.htm

The 37th Ed. of Blue Book of Gun Values says:
"Beginning 1994, Winchester began using the Classic nomenclature to indicate those models
featuring a pre-1964 style action with controlled round feeding.
"U.S. Repeating Arms closed its New Haven, CT manufacturing facility on March 31, 2006,
and an auction was held on Sept. 27-28, 2006, selling the production equipment and related assets."

A trip down memory lane to refresh myself on the model names,
at the end of 2006, about the end-time for the New Haven M70 Classic I posted this,
trying to ease my own confusion, that was, and continues still:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Winchester M70 CRF's and the forerunner PF:

XTR Super Express: was the pushfeed post-64 with 22" .458 WinMag and 24" .375 H&H,
blue and walnut with barrel recoil lug secondary,
the stock was an understated Monte Carlo with cheek piece,
and some drop to the comb, excellent compromise for open sights and scope.

Classic Super Express: was the same gun style-wise as the XTR,
but with CRF (Classic) starting in 1992, in .375, .416, and .458,
though it did not get the "Classic" added to the name until 1994.

Classic Safari Express: 1999 make-over of the Classic Super Express,
now with a different walnut stock, a straight comb, no cheekpiece,
negative-drop stock that is higher at the heel than at the nose of the comb.
Better with scope, not so good with iron sights.

"Safari Classic" would have to refer to the "Classic Safari Express"
if you are talking M70's (see CZ "Safari Classic" also).

Super Grade: "select walnut" straight comb with classic cheekpiece,
.270 to .338 calibers, and the RMEF Super Grade and the RMEF Super Grade III
get into stainless barrels of 26" and 24" and .300 WinMag and .300 WSM and .325 WSM

Classic Stainless: This stainless CRF actioned, synthetic-stocked rifle
was started in 1992 and was called "Classic" by 1994.
It was available in .300 RUM (no sights) and .375 H&H (with open sights),
and no barrel-mounted secondary recoil lugs.

Classic Black Shadow: a subsequent cheaper version available in .300 RUM,
matte black finished chrome-moly, with Phillips-head action screws,
in the dying days of the (New Haven) Winchester M70.

If anyone can correct me or add to this, please do.

The Custom Shop offerings might add "Custom," "Ultimate," and "Big Five" adjectives to the above.
And there is more than you can shake a stick at
if you get out a book and start looking them all up.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Also would be entertaining if one could tell when a New Haven M70 was made
between 1992 and 2006 by serial number, eh?

If anyone can give any ballpark about Serial Number of any one New Haven M70 Classic rifle by year made,
that might be more entertaining than an anecdote.

Alas, official records of those serial numbers for years are hard to find.
Any books I have on hand just have numbers for years 1935 through 1991,
like found at the web site below:

1935: Serial numbers 1 through 19 for the first year,
and sequentially thereafter ending at 928908 for 1968.

In 1969 they added a "G" prefix to the serial numbers, 1969 ended with G941900

1991 serial numbers ended with G2037985, sequentially I assume,
over 2 million (2,037,985) since the 1935 Numero Uno M70.
That included Pre-'64 CRF and post-'64 PF.
The revived, Post-'64/Post-1991 CRF started in 1992
and it was designated as "M70 Classic" from 1994 to 2006.

I have that CRF Winchester M70 I bought at the grand opening of the first-ever Anchorage Walmart in 1996-1994

That ballparks the 1995-1996 serial numbers for M70 Classics as being somewhere under G-200,000.
My 1996 (newly-made and shipped to Walmart) was under G-140,000 serial number.

On the left side of the barrel it says:

----WINCHESTER(R) MODEL 70 375 H&H MAG----
----------MADE IN NEW HAVEN, CT U.S.A.-----------

On the right side of the barrel it says:
---CLASSIC STAINLESS---

But the serial number is: G1398xx, under 140,000
Should have been over 2,000,000 if sequential with pre-1992 production. They must have started over again at G-0 with the Classic?
It is a different rifle altogether than the M70 PF of 1969-1991 G-numbers.
OK, would make sense to start over.

Here are a few of mine lying about, I'll try to connect years to them as possible, though some were bought used long after year of manufacture:

M70 Classic Stainless .375 H&H: G1398xx .................... 1996 purchase, new, could have been made earlier
M70 Classic Stainless 270 WCF: G1524xx .....................
M70 Classic Super Express 375 H&H: G2866xx .................
M70 Classic Stainless 300 RUM: G3375xx ......................
M70 Classic Stainless 300 RUM: G3383xx ......................
M70 Classic Safari Express .416 RemMag: G3426xx ... 2001 ... Still Under 350,000 ......................
M70 Classic Black Shadow 300 RUM: G3570xx ......... Now it's Over 350,000 .................... (edit: not 3.5 million!)
M70 Custom Safari Express Big Five Edition V .416 RemMag: G00xxBF5 ... (Cape Buffalo) last of annual series ended 2004
M70 Classic Stainless Short Action 300 WSM: G24450xx ... 2003.....Over 2.4 Million .... (highest Classic SN I have)


I guesstimate the "G-2-Million-Plus" serial numbers
might be suspect of "Circa 2005-2006 New Haven Syndrome," but that one of mine: NO PROBLEMS.

It would be nice if the "Classic" serial number records were not so "secret."

The FN made-in-SC and Portuguese-assembled M70 rifles share a multi-alpha-numeric SN system
(a big X is part of the alpha serial below and a little x is an ingognito numeric serial below, as used also above):

FN/SC M70 Extreme Weather SS SA 300 WSM: 35AMN177xx ...................................... 2009
FN/SC M70 Extreme Weather SS LA .338 WinMag: 35CZX082xx .................................. 2013
FN/SC M70 ALASKAN .375 H&H: 35CZY071xx ................................................... 2012
FN/SC M70 Ultimate Shadow Bolt Action Rifle 7mm RemMag: 35CZX0661xx ...................... 2013
FN/SC M70 Super Grade Safari Rifle .458 WinMag: 35CZZ046xx ............................... 2011
...
Portuguese-assembled M70 Ultimate Shadow SS LA 30-06 Spfld: 35EZX029xx ................... 2013 .......
(discontinued before 2016, but purchased by me in 2017 at local emporium, this is the only M70 I have that says
"Assembled In Portugal" on the barrel)

Those letter codes make the numbers enigmatic, without a de-coder ring on your finger.


The ancient history from the web site:

http://www.midwestgunworks.com...model-70-information

Production Type by Year of Manufacturer:
1935-1963: Pre ’64 Winchester Repeating Arms Company
1964-2006: USRAC (U.S. Repeating Arms Co.)
2008-Current: New Winchester Production
While dating your Model 70 by serial number can be difficult, and there are many “legends”
about why the historic serial number records for Winchester rifles and shotguns are not complete
or why they are not always verifiable. A few reasons cited are:
• A fire at the factory
• Inadvertent destruction (during office cleaning)
• Records simply lost in filing
• Records misplaced between ownership transitions
• Documents borrowed but not returned

There is probably some kernel of truth to all of them. But the fact remains;
there is no original, single, totally accurate database of serial numbers
from 1866 forward that we are aware of.
But perhaps this page can help you somewhat in your research.

RECORDS AT THE FACTORY INDICATE THE FOLLOWING SERIAL NUMBERS
WERE ASSIGNED TO GUNS AT THE END OF THE CALENDAR YEAR

1935 - 1 TO 19
36 - 2238
37 - 11573
38 - 17844
39 - 23991
40 - 31675
41 - 41753
42 - 49206
43 - 49983
44 - 49997
45 - 50921
46 - 58382
47 - 75675
48 - 101680
49 - 131580 50 - 173150
51 - 206625
52 - 238820
53 - 282735
54 - 323530
55 - 361025
56 - 393595
57 - 425283
58 - 440792
59 - 465040
60 - 504257
61 - 545446
62 - 565592
63 - 581471 1964 – 700000 to 740599
65 - 809177
66 - 833795
67 - 869000
68 - 928908
69 - G941900
70 - G957995
71 - G1018991
72 - G1099257
73 - G1128731
74 - G1175000
75 - G1218700
76 - G1266000
77 - G1350000 78 - G1410000
79 - G1447000
80 - G1490709
81 - G1537134
82 - G1632872
83 - G1656883
84 - G1728457
85 - G1783276
86 - G1808838
87 - G1845122
88 - G1893903
89 - G1950701
90 - G1987984
91 - G2037985
Records for rifles produced after 1992 have not been released.
However you can call Winchester Firearms directly to inquire
about the date of production on your rifle.
Winchester can be reached directly at 800-333-3288.

Also previously posted by RIP, lest he forget:

lindy2,

My guess is that your CRF M70 rifle might have been made in 1992,
and they started putting "Classic" on the barrels in 1993,
and announced that marketing name for the CRF M70 in 1994.
Like new cars, the 1994 models come out in summer of 1993?

The Pre-'64 M70 ended with a 1963 total of 581,471.
That is according to the records at the Winchester site:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/...70-manufactured.html

Here is the same record shown above in a different format
and an erroneous line for 1992, from the company website itself:

"This information below gives a fairly accurate picture
of year of manufacture for Model 70s until recent years (1992).
The information below was taken from rough documents
that were typed up a number of years ago and do not yet exist digitally.
To obtain date of manufacture on a Model 70 made after 1992
please contact the Winchester Customer Service Department at
800-333-3288.
In the event of alteration or the serial number being expunged,
the BATF needs to be advised.
DO NOT ship the firearm as this is a federal offense."



So from that, they jumped ahead by 118,529 to serial number 700,000 to start the Post-'64 M70,
skipped from 581471 at the end of 1963 to 700000 at the start of 1964.
In 1964 they made 40,600 M70 rifles, ending at 740,599.
All I am going by is the numbers for 1935 through 1991.
That was the only obvious gap, or skipping up in serial number sequence.
But the factory records above show 1992 ending with the same serial number as 1991.
Typo!
Surely they did not mean to include 1992 at all!
The folks at
http://www.midwestgunworks.com...model-70-information
edited that 1992 line out of their table.

So who knows how they might have skipped around in each individual year?
Forward and backward, whatever they wanted to use of any unused numbers?

Hopefully no two rifles got duplicate serial numbers.
But that could have happened with G-numbers
starting at G928909 in 1969 after serial number 928908 ended 1968.
1969 should gave started with G928909 and should have gone through G2037985 at the end of 1991.

So they started making the new CRF M70 with serial number G001 in 1992?
Then, when they got back up from G001 to G928908,
they had to jump forward by 1,109,078 to G2037986 so as not to duplicate the already used G-numbers?

No wonder they are keeping those serial number records on a need-to-know basis,
if it is indeed possible to call and see when your rifle was made:

800-333-3288

That idea makes it "interesting" to try to sequence the "Classic" to year made by serial number.
I might give it a try.

CEO to USRAC at New Haven, CT:
"OK, for this year's production we are just going to skip ahead by over a million
on those so-called serial numbers for the M70 Classic.
The bean counters will be in charge of getting the exact number to the production folks."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



I did recall that my .375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless was acquired by me in 1996, not 1994,
at the grand opening of the first ever Walmart in Alaska.
Yes, Walmart carried M70 Winchesters back then.

Lest I forget again.
Sometimers' is a bitch.
There's more:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Here is the date code used by both Browning and Winchester (BACO) on the current M70 rifles:
look at the last two letters in that string of three letters after the 35, e.g., in "35AMN177xx",
M = 0 and N = 9, corresponding to 2009 year when the action got the serial number applied.
Here's the rest of the de-coder:
0 = M
1 = Z
2 = Y
3 = X
4 = W
5 = Z
6 = T
7 = R
8 = P
9 = N

I called BACO in Utah and was enlightened, at least about the current M70 serial numbers that code for the year made.

From this it appears that in 2013 rifles were being assembled in both SC and Portugal.
Or, some said "Made In U.S.A" on the barrel (parts at least) even if the final assembly was in Portugal?
I prefer to believe the former.

I find the records at BACO in Utah, for the New Haven, CT M70 Classic, to be suspect.

They told me that the "Model 70 Classic" rifles started production in 1990 and ended with serial number G16859 at the end of 1990!

Compare that gem of information to another jewel at their web site:



Apparently the serial number records from New Haven were turned over to ATF when the plant closed.
Anyone picking up the pieces after that would have to deal with BATF or BATFE for records?
BATFE pulled another "fast and furious" on those serial number records?
No wonder something as simple as this gets so screwed up.

Rip
.

Nice Summary, older brother. I could tell you the numbers for the New Haven deplorable receivers, but mine are in getting opened up as a .404 Jeffery, and a 9.3x70mm (DWM 569).

Thanks, Charlie, I will get around to it if sumbuddy who know does not beat me to it.
Two decimal places on the inches would be good.


Dang it! Bro'Darts pictures are vanishing from Photopucker!
When are they going to catch up with me?
Those devious, extortionary devils!

Rip
.

A lot of interesting data and information there RIP.

Mauser was never too happy about having their standard M98 action opened up for longer cartridges, hence they produced and then made their magnum action available to the trade, Rigby holding the sole supply right in England early on.

As you have mentioned and unlike the Winchester pre64's, opened up standard action Mausers were all done after the factory. While some may have been done by less than skilled gunsmiths in later years, in the early 1900's most of those opened up were by the very skilled gunmakers like Jeffery, Cogswell & Harrison, Holland & Holland, and even Rigby themselves. One presumes that these gunmakers were quite satisfied with the strength of the lengthened Mausers.

The one I would really like to see is Harry Selby's 416 Rigby made by Rigby on an opened up standard M98 action. The COAL of a 404J is 90mm, a 375H&H 91mm and a 416Rigby 95mm. Now that is a lot of lengthening required, another 1/4" more over the 404J. Love to see how this was achieved.

Selby has said that his Mauser 416 Rigby was a very smooth feeder and never gave a hint of trouble. He used it enough to need to get it rebarreled by Rigby eventually.

I think most of us with these opened up actions, provided they haven't been thoroughly butchered, can rest easy in the knowledge that their safety is not an issue. I'm happy anyway

quote:

Dang it! Bro'Darts pictures are vanishing from Photopucker!
When are they going to catch up with me?
Those devious, extortionary devils!

Man! I just cannot go from zero to four hundred in one bite. I just paid my infectious disease doc $550.00 for a telephonic f/u consultation. That's enough extortion for this month. Lab tests for $1,500.00 next month. I'm afraid the other hosting sites are going to do the same thing. The new CEO at Photobucket must be a former CFO from a pharmaceutical company, wa, wa, wa.

quote:

I think most of us with these opened up actions, provided they haven't been thoroughly butchered, can rest easy in the knowledge that their safety is not an issue. I'm happy anyway

I'll know soon enough. Am trading for a .404 Jeffery bottom metal, and an opened up action. Oh well. I've had a Glock blow up in my hand, might as well try a Mauser.

quote:

Man! I just cannot go from zero to four hundred in one bite.

Amen, Bro!

Everyone should write a brief letter and quit Photobucket. Maybe they will come up with something reasonable like $25 for the first 2-5Gb storage with third party linkage.

My storage is only 0.3 Gb and I'm not paying $400 for that, either.

Its no great task to convert a pre 64 mod. 70 30-06 or 270 std. action to a 300 H&H or a 375 H&H, they work fine if done properly..Dennis Olson did one for me in 300 H&H some 30 years ago, and it was one of the best guns Ive ever owned. It now resides in a family members closet.