what is your opinion of the 450/400 3'' as an elephant cartridge? do you think it is powerful enough to perform reliably on elephant in most situations?

Pez, the 405-400 is pretty close to the 404 Jeffery which was used extensively for Elephant culling. It would work on Elephant with proper shot placement. I used a 416 Rigby with 1-shot results on a Namibia bull.

Will work but I'd prefer a +.45cal round and preferably in a Double, particularly when hunting early season and or for cow's .

IMO, the 450/400, like the .404, is a grand general purpose DGR. I rate it as Class II, an anchoring rifle. However, only in the hands of a superb game shot could it be legitimately called a 'stopping rifle'. For that a move up to .450+ is needed. Having 'killed' but not stopped an angry buff with a .404 I would only be willing to chance an elephant with the .450/400 if it was calm and undisturbed and my shot was absolutely, perfectly clear. It gives you more margin for error than the Class I's do, but not, in my timorous opinion, enough. "When in Elephant country, carry an elephant rifle!"--Terry Wieland.

In the Boddington on Elephant DVD, the Colonel stated he would recommend the 450/400 as a real life minimum for Elephant instead of the 375H&H. I'm paraphrasing there but that's how I interpreted his statements.

I've been asking this same question lately as I prefer the 500NE for Elephant but I'm having a 450/400 built. I don't see myself taking the 450/400 and 500 together as my Safari Battery. I was thinking more along the lines of taking the smaller of the two on any dedicated Buff hunts.

I suppose any reasonable caliber, with properly constructed bullets, is adequate assuming proper shot placement!

Indeed. But unfortunately proper shot placement normally requires the game to be standing quietly. When it starts to move especially toward you more frontal area is very, very comforting.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
Indeed. But unfortunately proper shot placement normally requires the game to be standing quietly. When it starts to move especially toward you more frontal area is very, very comforting.

Agreed. That's why I prefer the 500NE.

Why would not the 450/400 be just as lethal as a .450? The sectional density of its 400 grain bullet is the same as a .458" 500 grain bullet, which means at equal velocities it should penetrate just as far. The extra diameter does not seem all that significant when compared with the 12-foot height of an elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Why would not the 450/400 be just as lethal as a .450? The sectional density of its 400 grain bullet is the same as a .458" 500 grain bullet, which means at equal velocities it should penetrate just as far. The extra diameter does not seem all that significant when compared with the 12-foot height of an elephant.

What does the animal's height have to do with anything relating to a bullet's frontal diameter?

Pondoro Taylor would have happily continued his career using a double 450/400, or as he stated preferably a pair. He thought the 450/400 was perfectly capable as an elephant gun and he only used a larger calibre when following into heavy scrub or a wounded animal.

Lets face it, despite the 'dreams' of many, nobody hunts today as those hunters of early years did on their own and without backup. Hunters today are either good shots in their own right and can place their shot to put an animal down, or will have to rely on their paid professional to support their shot irrespective of the calibre they are using.
The 40 cals, especially the .404, have probably accounted for more DG than any other calibre and will out penetrate or match most others. It is simply a matter of getting the bullet in the right place and a PH does not wait for the safari hunter to do so. If the first shot from the hunter does not put the animal down i.e. a killing shot, then the PH (and the hunter if he can get back into action) pours it in until the animal is down. I have not seen one video posted anywhere that tells a differant story.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
. The extra diameter does not seem all that significant when compared with the 12-foot height of an elephant.

IT IS

I have ZERO experience with elephant, but would think that the latest generation of wonderbullets would make the .450-400 a better choice than it would have been 10 years ago.
Where's Will?

I would consider it an absolute MINIMUM on elephant and probably only use it for that purpose if it were inadvertantly in my hand at the time that I stumbled across an unwary Ele and didn't have access to anything bigger. Its a good shooting cartridge and I have a very nice Jeffery double in that caliber.-Rob

I think we all respect what Taylor did, irrespective of caliber or time period...I would count myself lucky and fortunate to have achieved a tenth of what he did, in any amount of time hunting. That being said, Taylor also firmly believed in the "Knock Down/Knock Out" power of DG cartridges, and, unless I missed something, I don't recall the last time anyone in the modern era actually failed to kill an elephant with what George Carlin would call a "Near hit" and then took up to 30 minutes to reload, get comfortable, and put one in the back of the still sleeping brain of the as yet felled Tusker. All of us can learn from what Taylor did, while at the same time following the obvious scientific advances in ballistics and subsequent firearms technology, again, regardless of caliber, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Since we all know all is never equal, I would always choose to carry a minimum caliber of .50+, while still recognizing that men exist who are better shots than I, and can thus face a moving, or charging, ELE while successfully placing a .40 caliber slug through that ELE's brain. Some of those men may well be on AR, and/or have already accomplished this feat, perhaps repeatedly.

Respects,

Phill

Maybe Don Heath will wade in here as he claims the 450/400 is one of the deepest penetrating rounds on ele and that if he was getting another double it would be a 450/400

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Maybe Don Heath will wade in here as he claims the 450/400 is one of the deepest penetrating rounds on ele and that if he was getting another double it would be a 450/400

I may be wrong here Phil but I think Don Heath actually stated that about the 500/416.

quote:

Originally posted by WHITE HUNTER BLACK HEART:
I think we all respect what Taylor did, irrespective of caliber or time period...I would count myself lucky and fortunate to have achieved a tenth of what he did, in any amount of time hunting. That being said, Taylor also firmly believed in the "Knock Down/Knock Out" power of DG cartridges, and, unless I missed something, I don't recall the last time anyone in the modern era actually failed to kill an elephant with what George Carlin would call a "Near hit" and then took up to 30 minutes to reload, get comfortable, and put one in the back of the still sleeping brain of the as yet felled Tusker. All of us can learn from what Taylor did, while at the same time following the obvious scientific advances in ballistics and subsequent firearms technology, again, regardless of caliber, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Since we all know all is never equal, I would always choose to carry a minimum caliber of .50+, while still recognizing that men exist who are better shots than I, and can thus face a moving, or charging, ELE while successfully placing a .40 caliber slug through that ELE's brain. Some of those men may well be on AR, and/or have already accomplished this feat, perhaps repeatedly.

Respects,

Phill

Yes I believe as Taylor and most others did(other than WDM Bell) that the bigger the bore the better in terms of keeping an elephant down for longer if the brain is missed and those hunters of old relied on this factor as invariably they were shooting multiple targets and putting each animal down or out of action long enough until they could reload for finishing. They were all shooting for ivory or culling.

My point is that this is not the case today and if the hunter does not drop the animal immediately with a proper brain shot which a 40 cal will do every bit as effectively as any other bore, then the PH starts shooting to put the animal down and is usually more effectively than most hunters are under pressure. There is probably a lot of truth in the saying that a PH has much more faith in a hunter's ability if he arrives on safari with a 404 or 416.

I like the charging ele video of Mike Jines shooting backed up by Buzz Carlton. I think this demonstrates my point perfectly in that Mike's first shot from his double (500?) finds the brain as does Buzz's almost simultaneous backup shot with his 416. Mike's clear brain shot was the killer and would have had the same effect on dropping the ele if it had been a 375 or 40cal. His second shot which went high because the ele was already dropping dead on the spot was not needed or effective. If Mike had not found the brain the result still would have been the same drop dead, as Buzz's 416 did what was necessary as well.

Then if we like, and in all great respect to Mike and his cool and calm perfect one shot kill in a very close charge, we could go on to discuss the oft heralded argument, double or bolt better for DG. Mike ended up with an empty gun as Buzz dragged him around to the side where Buzz, who still had a loaded bolt and 2 or 3 in the mag, went on to give the insurance shot or maybe it was a frightner to the other ele that was there? (apologies if Mike had reloaded and was edited out in the video).

From my observations of the various videos posted here and elsewhere, if the hunter fails to drop a close in DG animal with the first shot then all bets are off and the PH invariably finishes the job and the effectiveness or not of the hunters particular cartridge or gun loses significance.

That's my take on it, other's may have differant experiences and it would be good to see any video of such.

Eagle27,



Respects,

Phill

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


I like the charging ele video of Mike Jines shooting backed up by Buzz Carlton. I think this demonstrates my point perfectly in that Mike's first shot from his double (500?) finds the brain as does Buzz's almost simultaneous backup shot with his 416. Mike's clear brain shot was the killer and would have had the same effect on dropping the ele if it had been a 375 or 40cal. His second shot which went high because the ele was already dropping dead on the spot was not needed or effective. If Mike had not found the brain the result still would have been the same drop dead, as Buzz's 416 did what was necessary as well.

I think you need to take another look at that video as I saw something quite different. I may be wrong here and if so, maybe Mike or Buzz will clarify. But in watching the follow up shots that Buzz put in, what he was actually doing was putting that cow BACK DOWN. It appears that she got up after they backed off. Buzz puts in the first "insurance" shot without us having a view of what he is shooting. As he fires the second "insurance" shot, the camera pans and we can clearly see 2 cows, the one in front and to the left falls on it's left side as he fires the second "insurance" shot. The other cow then runs off. Buzz would not shoot an additional cow from this distance as it would not be self defense. He is clearly putting the original cow back down.

If this is indeed what happened, it reinforces the point that the larger bore weapon, Mike's 500 was indeed superior to a smaller bore in that although he missed the brain, it knocked her down immediately allowing both hunters to make an escape. This is why I've said all along that the guys advocating a 375 for every thing are asking for trouble when the butter gets thin as it was very thin indeed for Buzz and Mike in this video.

quote:

Originally posted by WHITE HUNTER BLACK HEART:
I think we all respect what Taylor did, irrespective of caliber or time period...I would count myself lucky and fortunate to have achieved a tenth of what he did, in any amount of time hunting. That being said, Taylor also firmly believed in the "Knock Down/Knock Out" power of DG cartridges, and, unless I missed something, I don't recall the last time anyone in the modern era actually failed to kill an elephant with what George Carlin would call a "Near hit" and then took up to 30 minutes to reload, get comfortable, and put one in the back of the still sleeping brain of the as yet felled Tusker. All of us can learn from what Taylor did, while at the same time following the obvious scientific advances in ballistics and subsequent firearms technology, again, regardless of caliber, ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Since we all know all is never equal, I would always choose to carry a minimum caliber of .50+, while still recognizing that men exist who are better shots than I, and can thus face a moving, or charging, ELE while successfully placing a .40 caliber slug through that ELE's brain. Some of those men may well be on AR, and/or have already accomplished this feat, perhaps repeatedly.

Respects,

Phill

Caliber will never make up for bad shot placement.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Maybe Don Heath will wade in here as he claims the 450/400 is one of the deepest penetrating rounds on ele and that if he was getting another double it would be a 450/400

I may be wrong here Phil but I think Don Heath actually stated that about the 500/416.

As I said, I wish Don would weigh in - but imagine he is currently in transit to Vegas for SCI - but he was referring to the 450/400 as he mentioned that if he was to replace his 500/416 he would get a 450/400.

Here is an interesting old post of Don's that was Posted 24 February 2011 15:29

I have owned (and used a little) a 500/416 wich just about duplicates a .416 Rigby and obviously seen many a .416 rigby/rem used both by clients and by appies on the proficiency exam.

My Uncle owns a Woodward in .450/400 and that was the first double I ever fired. Later I owned a Westley Richards falling block in this cal (both were 3") I have never shot anything with the 450/400 but seen a fair number of lion, elephant and a few buff taken with it.

1) On elephant- 450/400 has considerably better penetration than a .470 or .500NE and bullets usually exit on head shots. The only thing the .416 is better for is a PH throwing lead at the rear of a departing elephant- and even there the .400 has more than enough penetration for a spine or hip shot.

On Buff, the .416 might be better but I cannot truthfully say I have noticed it being so. The .400 is better than a .375 on buff.

On lion - the .416 is significantly better than a .400 - it is a velocity thing...a .458 Win with regular 510grn softs isn't any better at knocking over a lion than my 9,3...and the .400 isn't as effective as a .458 Win. Not to say though that the .400 is inadequate for lion- quite the contrary. My uncle has taken several hundred lion with his over the last 60 years- hit them right and it is all over. The higher velocity helps when the shot isn't well placed.

Since I do mostly lion and a few elephant hunts with only the occasional buffalo, I went for the .500/416 over a .500NE (the 500 is better for buff and in terms of felt recoil I cannot say I there is much between them in krieghoff).

For a client comming out a .450/400 is a fantastic choice. Hits harder than a .375 on buff. More than enough penetration on ele, even for pretty poor angle shots such as quatering on- through the tusk into the brain. A .375 has greater penetration than a 450/400 BUT only if the bullets hold up to the high impact velocity, and there are many that do not. This isn't an issue with the .400

The .450/400 is certainly more than adequate for lion but wouldn't be my first choice.

In a double rifle the recoil from a .450/400 is less than from most bolt action .375's (due to the rifle being heavier) and felt recoil is considerably less as it isn't as snapy as a .375. Felt recoil from the .450/400 is also considerably less than a .500/416 (at least it is in K guns and in a rifle like the woodward which fits me like it was made to measure, felt recoil from the .400 is less than my 9,3 or my Lee No 5 .303 come to mention it.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


I like the charging ele video of Mike Jines shooting backed up by Buzz Carlton. I think this demonstrates my point perfectly in that Mike's first shot from his double (500?) finds the brain as does Buzz's almost simultaneous backup shot with his 416. Mike's clear brain shot was the killer and would have had the same effect on dropping the ele if it had been a 375 or 40cal. His second shot which went high because the ele was already dropping dead on the spot was not needed or effective. If Mike had not found the brain the result still would have been the same drop dead, as Buzz's 416 did what was necessary as well.

I think you need to take another look at that video as I saw something quite different. I may be wrong here and if so, maybe Mike or Buzz will clarify. But in watching the follow up shots that Buzz put in, what he was actually doing was putting that cow BACK DOWN. It appears that she got up after they backed off. Buzz puts in the first "insurance" shot without us having a view of what he is shooting. As he fires the second "insurance" shot, the camera pans and we can clearly see 2 cows, the one in front and to the left falls on it's left side as he fires the second "insurance" shot. The other cow then runs off. Buzz would not shoot an additional cow from this distance as it would not be self defense. He is clearly putting the original cow back down.

If this is indeed what happened, it reinforces the point that the larger bore weapon, Mike's 500 was indeed superior to a smaller bore in that although he missed the brain, it knocked her down immediately allowing both hunters to make an escape. This is why I've said all along that the guys advocating a 375 for every thing are asking for trouble when the butter gets thin as it was very thin indeed for Buzz and Mike in this video.

My reference to the first two shots from Mike and Buzz being brain shots and Mikes second being high and missing the brain are not from the video itself but from photos Mike posted elsewhere showing the bullet entries and commenting that his first shot and Mikes were within a couple of inches of each other (which you could see in the photo) and were direct hits through the brain. The video I have seen as posted by Mike only shows Buzz taking a second shot as a frightner at what seems to be other eles heading away. I'm sure Buzz would not have dragged Mike away from infront of the downed ele without insuring it was going to stay down as Buzz was already reloaded before leaving that ele and could have easily put it down had it tried to get back up.

As you say perhaps Mike or Buzz could comment on what did take place. I'm certainly not taking anything away from the great shooting under extreme pressure by both Mike and Buzz, I just find it interesting and informative to analyse these sorts of events to get a handle on how various cartridges and firearms perform and I intended my analysis of this event to reinforce what many others are saying, and how I feel in answering the original post is that yes the 450/400 is perfectly capable of cleanly taking any DG under the sort of conditions we hunt in today becuase irrespective of the cartridge or gun we use, the PH backs up very rapidly.

Gator1,

Perhaps you missed mt point...perhaps not.

I agree that shot placement, whether hunting or shooting, is the most important evaluating factor. That being said, if you and I are equal marksmen, and you use a .40 caliber slug while I use a .50 caliber slug, my margin for error is just that much greater than yours, at least theoretically, if not actually. I can only base this on two observations: 1) My own hunting, LE, and shooting experience 2) What the "Experts" say, and here one must choose carefully who he wants to use as a representative of expert opinion.

While I choose to listen to the wisdom of greater men (not defined here for time purposes) who have come before me and who have done far more under these discussion headings than I will ever hope to do, my best reference by far is my own experience with the larger cartridges and their (and my) performance under pressure.

I have always shot very well, both personally and professionally, and I have always used the larger caliber cartridges available to me in which to do it, assuming my choices were given consideration at the onset of the experience undertaken...this does not mean or suggest that I cannot shoot the medium bore or small bore cartridges well, but is more a function of my ability and desire to put the "bigger is better" theory to the test of living.

I am sure that there are men who exist in this world (and, as I said before, on AR) who are far better shots than I am, regardless of caliber, and to them, use of a .40 cal slug is perhaps even too large to kill an elephant, or perhaps it is too small...I must accept their experience as judge in these matters...I am certainly not of the personal belief that a .40 caliber slug is ineffective or useless for DG hunting, quite the contrary. But, and I must allow for the wisdom of better men than I to override what I am going to say, I would choose NOT TO USE a .40 caliber cartridge when DG hunting, not because of any lack of production from the cartridge, but because the particular shooter under judgment and scrutiny here, is in fact, not PEZ, but me, and that is the only shooter who I can justly compare and contrast this question of caliber, as my experience and knowledge is the only thing I bring to this discussion, just as your experience and knowledge is what you bring to justify your points of view.

I shoot the .50 caliber plus cartridges at a level that is consistent with someone who uses such cartridges to kill large and or dangerous game animals with proficiency, though I am very far from great, very good, or perhaps, even your standards of personal and professional prowess with a firearm.

Respects,

Phill

Phill
I agree with your point and in fact restated in my posts where a larger calibre (according to Taylor and many others) will put an ele down for longer than a smaller calibre if the brain is missed, but and it is a big BUT, my point was that in the modern safari hunting as we know it today most all hunters do not get to experience this type of thing as the PH also follows up almost immediately if the ele, or any other DG, does not go down and stay down immediately. And of course in the case of a charge the PH will shoot almost simultaneously without waiting to see the effect of the client's shot a la Mike's video and another posted recently of a buff charge. I don't see this as any reflection on the hunter or his gun, it is just making sure nobody in the party gets hurt and the hunter returns home safely.

I have no problem with anyone using any of the large bores or extra large bores or doubles if they can use them effectively, I just think that the reasoning behind large bores and doubles which was very sound for those early hunters who operated without back up and quite often on multiple targets and for which these developments in cartridges and guns were made, are just not as valid for the modern hunter. Yes they can still be valid for the PH who has to back up and shoot under more adverse conditions but for the hunter, we...ll lets say I would be most happy facing off with my 404 or a nice 450/400 double if someone donate one to me.

I guess the first response to Pez' question by Biebs would have been my simple answer too.

I have no experence with elephant with the 450/400, but I will tell you as far as shooting goes, it is my favorite. I have shot doubles in almost every caliber from-- 9.3x74R- 577 nitro. I will tell you the 450/400 is one of the sweetest shooting of them all. Kind of the best of all worlds. It can be built light (around 9-10 lbs), recoil is not a issue of a proper balanced and weight gun--on par with a 9.3-375 bolt rifle, and with the new bullets like the woodleigh Hydro stabilized, and others like cutting edge, and north fork-- plenty of penatration.

Shooting my 9.3x74R and 450/400 have made me a better double gun shot--and when it comes time to take a elephant--I will do it with a 450/400.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:


I like the charging ele video of Mike Jines shooting backed up by Buzz Carlton. I think this demonstrates my point perfectly in that Mike's first shot from his double (500?) finds the brain as does Buzz's almost simultaneous backup shot with his 416. Mike's clear brain shot was the killer and would have had the same effect on dropping the ele if it had been a 375 or 40cal. His second shot which went high because the ele was already dropping dead on the spot was not needed or effective. If Mike had not found the brain the result still would have been the same drop dead, as Buzz's 416 did what was necessary as well.

I think you need to take another look at that video as I saw something quite different. I may be wrong here and if so, maybe Mike or Buzz will clarify. But in watching the follow up shots that Buzz put in, what he was actually doing was putting that cow BACK DOWN. It appears that she got up after they backed off. Buzz puts in the first "insurance" shot without us having a view of what he is shooting. As he fires the second "insurance" shot, the camera pans and we can clearly see 2 cows, the one in front and to the left falls on it's left side as he fires the second "insurance" shot. The other cow then runs off. Buzz would not shoot an additional cow from this distance as it would not be self defense. He is clearly putting the original cow back down.

If this is indeed what happened, it reinforces the point that the larger bore weapon, Mike's 500 was indeed superior to a smaller bore in that although he missed the brain, it knocked her down immediately allowing both hunters to make an escape. This is why I've said all along that the guys advocating a 375 for every thing are asking for trouble when the butter gets thin as it was very thin indeed for Buzz and Mike in this video.

My reference to the first two shots from Mike and Buzz being brain shots and Mikes second being high and missing the brain are not from the video itself but from photos Mike posted elsewhere showing the bullet entries and commenting that his first shot and Mikes were within a couple of inches of each other (which you could see in the photo) and were direct hits through the brain. The video I have seen as posted by Mike only shows Buzz taking a second shot as a frightner at what seems to be other eles heading away. I'm sure Buzz would not have dragged Mike away from infront of the downed ele without insuring it was going to stay down as Buzz was already reloaded before leaving that ele and could have easily put it down had it tried to get back up.

As you say perhaps Mike or Buzz could comment on what did take place. I'm certainly not taking anything away from the great shooting under extreme pressure by both Mike and Buzz, I just find it interesting and informative to analyse these sorts of events to get a handle on how various cartridges and firearms perform and I intended my analysis of this event to reinforce what many others are saying, and how I feel in answering the original post is that yes the 450/400 is perfectly capable of cleanly taking any DG under the sort of conditions we hunt in today becuase irrespective of the cartridge or gun we use, the PH backs up very rapidly.

I certainly don't intend for my comments to take away from Buzz or Mike's shooting either as they did an excellent job IMO. However, you can clearly see a cow drop to Buzz's second insurance shot. The cow falls on it's left side and knocks over a small tree as it rolls onto it's side. It looks to me that the cow got back up which obviously means they both missed the brain.

Hopefully one of them will comment here to clear it up. But from my perspective, using that 500, even though it missed the brain, is what put that cow down the first time. Again, support for using the largest caliber you can handle well. And Mike handles it well.

Must be looking at differant videos as Mikes ele looks to be going down dead as a door nail and Buzz is focussed at the other eles in the background. I can't see in the video I have any other ele going down. Also strange in Mike's post of the ele with photos (not sure where this is now) that he does not mention it getting up again and he only shows three bullet holes in the ele.

It would be good if Mike could comment again on the action.

i am more than comfortable shooting elephant with a 450-400 or 404 jefferys. it is a superlative big 5 caliber imo..the usual quote of "you have to properly place your bullets or must shoo as well as taylor or some person of fame" is absolutly correct BUT that also applies to a 700 N.E> and i recall the first elephant shot with the 700 escaped wounded!

i think the real big bores give one a since of security, but i believe that is a false since. and so many ihave seen could not shoot the big 470s 500s etc,...if you can and are honest with yourself then shoot whatever, but never doubt the 450-400 isn't an elephant gun or the 375 for that matter. johan calitz sez the 375 is an excellent elephant if one can shoot.

The 450/400 is a fantastic rifle, especially for your wife or perhaps your teenage daughter who might not yet be used to the recoil of a real rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
The 450/400 is a fantastic rifle, especially for your wife or perhaps your teenage daughter who might not yet be used to the recoil of a real rifle.

Are we in a 'full-moon' phase?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Must be looking at differant videos as Mikes ele looks to be going down dead as a door nail and Buzz is focussed at the other eles in the background. I can't see in the video I have any other ele going down. Also strange in Mike's post of the ele with photos (not sure where this is now) that he does not mention it getting up again and he only shows three bullet holes in the ele.

It would be good if Mike could comment again on the action.

Do you have a copy of Buzz's new video, The Essence of Elephant Hunting? Mike's charge is one of the last segments in this DVD. I've run it back and forth a few times now on slow motion and I am certain of my position.

Mike and Buzz shot almost at the same time, and Mike got in a second shot as well, but she was already down. The cow fell at their feet and they exited to the right. As they walked, Buzz turned around and fired the first insurance shot, at what, we can not see. He then fired a second insurance shot as the camera panned back to the fallen Cow. She was now up and moving away and to the left with another Tusked Cow to her right.

When Buzz fired the second insurance shot, the cow that is closest, moving away, and to the left, falls on its face, then rolls over onto its left side, knocking over a small tree. That cow got back up and was not brained.

Not that it matters. It doesn't because it was a bit of fine shooting IMO. In fact, I think it is some of the best evidence for using the 500NE. The shear amount of lead from Mike's 500 and Buzz's 416, dropped that cow and saved their lives. It gave them a chance to move back and then sort it out. I wouldn't have wanted to be either of them with a 375 in my hands, or even worse, with both having a 375!!

Even with this said, and with the video available for anyone to view and analyze, on this very thread, there are those still espousing the 375. If we conclude from the video, that both shooters MISSED the brain, but the cow was put down because of the 500NE's energy and frontal area, the question becomes, would a 375 have resulted in knocking her down. I'm not talking about killing her, because she wasn't killed, just knocked down. Again, in this charge situation on this video, would a 375 have saved your life with the exact same shot placement. I'm not willing to bet my life on it! I'm sticking with my 500NE!!

Todd, I do owe you an apology. I tracked back to Mike's post (link below) of which there are 3 pages and see some later commentary from Mike does indicate that the cow got back up again and Buzz had to shoot again as well as Mike who had reloaded his 500 by then. It was confusing in that his video as he posted it does not show both these follow up shots which he says were not in the head and the photos he posted showing the three head shots during the charge do not mention that these were not the only shots fired or that the ele got up again.

I had not followed the later posts where others asked Mike for clarification so did not get the full picture until now. I do note that some observed that Buzz's first shot with his 416 seemed to put the ele down in the charge but of course that's hard say with all that was happening.
Anyway it was good shooting under pressure on everyone's part and an exciting bit of video.
Apologies again but at least we did remain civil in our discussion

http://forums.accuratereloadin...951045421#1951045421

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Todd, I do owe you an apology. I tracked back to Mike's post (link below) of which there are 3 pages and see some later commentary from Mike does indicate that the cow got back up again and Buzz had to shoot again as well as Mike who had reloaded his 500 by then. It was confusing in that his video as he posted it does not show both these follow up shots which he says were not in the head and the photos he posted showing the three head shots during the charge do not mention that these were not the only shots fired or that the ele got up again.

I had not followed the later posts where others asked Mike for clarification so did not get the full picture until now. I do note that some observed that Buzz's first shot with his 416 seemed to put the ele down in the charge but of course that's hard say with all that was happening.
Anyway it was good shooting under pressure on everyone's part and an exciting bit of video.
Apologies again but at least we did remain civil in our discussion

http://forums.accuratereloadin...951045421#1951045421

No need for apologies!

i appreciate all the info very much. i've been putting money back for a custom big bore and it's been a long time since i've bought any guns at all and even though i'm still saving for the custom big bore, i'd really like to go ahead and get something for now. I saw a Ruger No 1 in 450/400 and i'd really like to have something in a Nitro Express cartridge, i just want to be sure it is definately powerful enough for a good elephant round. from what i've been reading here and elsewhere the 450/400 will get the job done good on elephant with good shot placement but i know the Ruger No ! also comes in 458 Lott, so i'm thinking about it too. we'll see.

The Ruger will be a lot more pleasant to shoot in .450/400 than it Lott. It's awfully light for a DGR.

quote:

The Ruger will be a lot more pleasant to shoot in .450/400 than it Lott. It's awfully light for a DGR.

Amen to that!!! The 450-400 is much better balanced too. I've had both!! Still have the 450-400......and it's for sale.

the Ruger No.1 in 450/400 will most likely be my next purchase. i would rather have the No.1 in 450/400 way, way more than in 458 Lott. if i want to use something with more power i'll wait until i've got my big bore from AHR or use my .375 RUM. thanks very much again for all the useful info, the 450/400 sounds like it would be a wonderful cartridge and for more than just elephant which i think it would work just fine on too.