rifle has been corrected to owner's requirements
jeffe

[ 11-26-2002, 18:55: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Jeffe,

I have a 470 and always shoot the right barrel and then the left. I have been told that is the "correct" way and the way the gun was regulated. I have never had the gun shoot both barrels at the same time. I guess with the recoil of the 577 this could be a possibility and that is the reason you were instructed to shoot the left barrel/rear trigger first.

If a soft and solid were to be loaded I would load the soft in the right and solid in the left. It is easy to chose one over the other and easy to get 2 shots off quickly if you practice at it.

Good luck.

BigB

jeffeosso,
BigB has one of those great Merkels in 470 NE. That is why he has never suffered a double discharge, and ditto for me!

I do not think it makes a bit of difference, right versus left first for regulation/accuracy. It doesn't with my Merkel. I have checked it out.

Deliberately selecting one trigger or the other is O.K. when you have time.

However, one should always be ready for a quick first shot and followup second barrel by reflex. To me this is esiest to do right-left. That is why I and most others throughout the world do it that way, as BigB has pointed out. Soft in the right, solid in the left, or both solids, depending on the game. Habit, automatic, reflex, no hesitation: right-left reload right-left.

If the left barrel is more accurate than the right and a deliberate, unpressured aiming is allowed, by all means pull the rear trigger first.

After all, with all the one shot kills you are likely to make, you need to exercise the left barrel some too. Give the right one a break now and then.

You should do a search. This has been done and re-done.

A double shouldn't double-discharge regardless of the caliber.

Some shoot the right barrel first and some shoot the left first. Only from practice will you know what is the most natural for you. There are no "rules' though some claim there are rules.

Personally, I shoot the left first.

Will

[ 06-07-2002, 06:41: Message edited by: Will ]

Jeffeosso,

From my experience of shooting double rifles, I agree with DaggaRon in that the regulation is not affected by which barrel you fire first. At least on my doubles the targets look the same regardless of which barrel/trigger I use first.

Most people fire the right barrel (front trigger) first as it is an automatic action to slip the finger back and fire the left barrel. (Try firing the left barel (rear trigger) first and see how much slower it is in firing the other barrel).

Softs / Solids - I always do Soft in the right barrel, Solid in the left - I never change as I have always done this and if I need to use the solid I know automatically which barrel to fire.

The two causes I know of a double rifle "doubling" on firing the first barrel are
1. The sear being worn which causes the second hammer to drop on recoil of the first firing - I have had this happen when testing a double rifle I was purchasing and had it corrected immediately after purchasing it.
2. The second reason is that some people sometimes accidently hit the rear trigger with their finger under recoil, causing the second barrel to fire and this is why some people like to fire the left barrel (rear trigger) first.

500 Nitro
Australa

Jeffe,

With a hammerless rifle it doesn't matter. I learned to shoot with a hammer gun and I am right handed so I shoot left then right. Regulation is not affected by which barrel is fired first either.

If you are shooting a hammer gun you should fire the off hand barrel first. For example, if you are right handed you should shoot left - right. A left handed shooter would shoot right - left. The reason being the cocking of the second hammer. It is not easy to cock the off hand hammer while attempting a quick second shot.

Contrary to what many say I can get a second shot off as quickly shooting left - right as I can right - left.

Todd E

Thanks for the feedback on this. I still think that left first in a right gun is wrong, but Todd raises a great point on a hammergun.

Richard's 577 has a 1/5# rear trigger... and the maker keeps telling him it's fine, but use the rear trigger first, and shoot the left barrel. He said "EVERYONE that shoots these big guns left barrel first"... that's nyaticrap, but....
We put a blank(primer in brass only) in the left barrrel, and fired the SUGGESTED LOADS from the maker, and about every 5-6th shot, it would pop the blank. So, being slightly afriad of a double again, we've been shooting it left first.. basically as if it was a lefty gun, with right triggers.
Now, I will tell you this, it's pretty "natural" to grab the rear trigger, and under recoil, grab the front trigger when the rifle comes back into battery. See, if it's hard to put your finger on the rear trigger for a first shot, then how much more time can be wasted in recoil?
Try it some time, in all honesty, try to put two at 50, aimed first, quick second.

I still think it's wrong, but He's going to africa in 8 days,(lucky guy)and he's been practicing for the last 60 days left first.

good hunting, and thanks
Jeffe

I would send that gun in for repair. Apparently the gun maker does not want to correct the problem, so I would send it to Champlin's in Enid, OK.

I was always taught right first on a double with a soft and then the left with a solid. A DOUBLE should never even accidently fire both barrels. I would immediately have it fixed if that ever happened to me. PEOPLE who can't handle heavy recoil sometimes accidently hit the rear trigger on recoil and fire it accidentily. That is a very different situation than the recoil setting off the sear. -Rob

revised, deleted

[ 11-26-2002, 18:36: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

This comes up from time to time, and it isn't wasted because there is always someone who hasn't been involved it before!

DaggaRon, and Will both habitually shoot the left barrel first, and swear it has no effect on the regulation. That's great for them, or anyone else who it works for. I personally will only shoot the left barrel first on the initial shot, if a solid is needed,immediatly, otherwise, I shoot rt (soft), lft (solid), rt (solid), lft (solid) unless shooting at soft skinned animals, in which case it will be all softs! All still rt barrel first.

ToddE's example of the the hammer gun being easier to shoot if the left barrel is fired first,because of the left barrel being hard to cock, is bunk. There is no difference between the hammer rifle, and the hammerless rifle. You don't cock only one barrel on a hammerless, why would you only cock one barrel on a hammer rifle? I have four double rifles that are sidelock hammer, or back action hammer rifles. They range between 8X57JR, on the bottom, to a 577NE 3" on the top, and when I'm ready to shoot, I cock both barrels, anything else is simply dumb. A rifle that isn't cocked makes a poor weapon, IMO!

It is my opinion, the only thing that causes the trigger finger to accidently hit the back trigger during recoil, is the front trigger is too far forward for the shooter's hands, and the trigger is only engaged by the tip of the finger, instead of the first joint. OR, he simply does not engage it properly. The doubleing by this means puts the second shot someplace it the stratosphere, being fired in the middle of the recoil arch. A true machanically induced doubleing, is due to damage to the rifle's lock systems, and needs to be fixed, not simply change trigger order. Any gunsmith who tells you to simply change the order of shooting to avoid this type of doubleing, should be shuned like the plauge, because he's a machinic, not gunsmith !

The finger induced "DOUBLEING" is not similtaneous fireing, but is in order,rt, then lft, but not when the shooter intends it to happen. It is not the fault of the rifle, however, but the man pulling the GO levers!

This can go on for years more, just like it has for years past, and nobody will ever agree on this. That's fine, but the "MAKERS" of all except one, I'm aware of, tell you to fire the rifle rt,lft, rt, lft, because that is the way it was regulated. I believe this has more to do with working up your load than at any time while hunting. In Will's case he only shoots ELEPHANT from 35 yds, so it wouldn't make any difference to him. DaggaRon, as far as I know, has only shot mostly at 50 yds, and has not tried to place the bullets precicely at 150 yds on a target of oppertunity. This is why the front trigger is the one that is made a "SET TRIGGER" on a rt handed double rifle. That type shot is usually taken with both barrels in "COOL" state, and is very accurate, when fired that way, at long range. I find that most here, and other places as well, think double rifles are not useful at more than 100 yds, and most never shoot past 50 yds.

I gave up long ago trying to convence those who will not listen, and simply do it as reccomended by the old English makers, you may do as it pleases you!

MacD37,
You have made a blooper!

I am not a proponent of pulling the left or rear trigger first "habitually," as Will is.

Read my post again if you did not understand that I am a proponent of firing right-left habitually, so as to make it an automatic, undelayed behaviour under stress.

Right-left reload right-left, is indeed the proper way to do it for me and most people.

And it makes not a bit of difference in the target whether I pull the left or the right first, as others above have also supported. Theoretically, it might cause a millimeter or so of difference at the target, but this will not have any practical effect out to 150 yards, which is about the maximum range I feel comfortable shooting iron sighted lever actions or double rifles, whether my Merkel 470 or Redlabel 338, which I have done more plinking with.

Thanks for explaining the finger tip mechanism of the shooter touching off the second barrel during recoil from the first shot. That definitely makes sense, and I had not thought out the finer points of this, as you have explained: the finger tip slips off as the gun bucks in recoil and finger moves backward by flinch possibly as the rear trigger rises in recoil to meet the hand that is trying to stay in place by inertia, and has a poor grip at the wrist or grip of the rifle. Yes, sloppy finger and hand work.

Mac,

To each his own. I didn't cock both barrels on my Father's 8 bore (way back when it was functional) because I was a pussy and afraid of barrel two going off. My Father had the sear disengage once on the 8 bore firing both barrels almost simultaneously, his description of this "religious" experience was enough for me. By the way, I can cock the second hammer while reaquirring the target, it really takes less than a second.

Could you explain to us all how regulations is affected by shooting the right/left versus the left right thing?

What make is your 577 NE 3"?

Todd E

[ 06-09-2002, 18:38: Message edited by: Todd E ]

Todd E,
Until MacD37 replies, the only way that I can think of that it could affect the regulation is through the change of balance by the weight of the bullet and powder charge that is gone from the right side after the first shot.

I think this is insignificant because of the small weight change compared to the overall weight of the loaded gun, and this weight change comes at a point that is very close to the center of gravity of the gun.

Barrel heat causing changes after the first shot from a cold gun? I don't think so.

I think it is insignificant.

It is O.K. to train yourself to do it either way.

But, what works best for me and is the traditional method of the majority is "right-left, right-left." Soft in the right, solid in the left for the first round, then two solids for the second round, or whatever you can get if you are still interacting with the environment at that point!

DaggaRon, sorry I had you confused with someone else on this or another forum, (Maybe I have you confused here as well) , who along with Will always shoots the left barrel first!

Also while I've got you attention, and Todd E may step in here, If you remember, when you fire the rt barrel from a cool rifle,and if your fingers are touching the barrel, you can feel the heat pass under the fingers toward the muzzle. The heat is sudden in the comparitively thin barrel. The barrel starts to expand, at the breach end, and progressivly warps toward the muzzle. It warps because it is expanding on the open air side faster than the rib side, with the ribs, and wedges acting as heat sinks. The fact that the left barrel is tied to the rt barrel, and is insulated by the ribs between the barrels, the fired barrel warps slightly to the left,progressively down the barrel, putting pressure on the left barrel to move with it. When working up loads, all groups should be fired from cool fouled barrels. The right barrel fired first, (cold),heating it's self, left fired under warp, then also warmed. Now the reload is fired with both barrels warm. Giveing the same sequince of warming/warping as is experienced by the regulator at the factory. This is why sometimes a load worked up will shoot perfect groups, when worked up at the range, but when shot later from a very cool rifle doesn't group as tight. The cause is, the final load was fired with four shots from an already warm rifle. Also the long shot fired with the "SET TRIGGER" which is always the rt barrel, on a right handed double, and vice versa on a left hand double, will shoot consistantly if fired when the barrel is cool, but fouled.

So! I guess what I'm trying, desperately, to say is, most folks work up loads all wrong, and then wonder why the rifle isn't grouping under hunting conditions, when the fire fight starts with a cool rifle. You are right when you say the effect is minimal at close range, but is far more improtant whin working up loads for a double rifle. At close range on large targets, or even on a close brain shot, it has little effect, other than, as you say, for the habit of doing it the same way every time.

ToddE, I understand your concerne about the old 8 bore double stomping you by doubling. I had a 10 ga do the same thing to me,when I was only 7 yrs old, and it was not fun. But that was caused by a gun that was not in propper repair, not from cocking the gun. When you shoot a new 470NE hammerless double are you worried about a doubling? My guess the answer to this question would be "NO". People seem to never think about the fact that a hammerless double rifle is carried with both barrels cocked,the exception being the Krieghoff, but it makes them nearveous to cock both barrels on a hammer rifle. The only difference is, you can see the hammers on the hammer rifle, and you can't on the hammerless. If either one is in ill repair it may double, and neither one is safer than the other, from that happening.

The 577NE is a V. Haffner, turning under lever, back action, hammer rifle with 26" barrels, solid rib, with one standing sight at rear, and Brass bead forward. The stock has the most beautiful piece of walnut I have ever seen on a double rifle, with 24 LTI checkering, and is actually a streight stock, but a carved Buffalo horn pistol grip is under the stock behind the trigger guard, Also the origenal but plate was about 1.25" thick, and Buffalo horn as well. It has a Silvers recoil pad today. It is my opinion, this rifle was made for India, rather than Africa.

[ 06-09-2002, 22:45: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

MacD37:

I will agree with you if one is looking for absolute accuracy. For the hunting I do with a double absolute accuracy is not required. It is not even achievable, and I can barely discern the front sight anyway!

I do admire your patience and persistence in explaining this even time the subject surfaces.

Will

MacD37,
O.K., that makes sense.

The amount of warp by heat would be variable from rifle to rifle I would think.

And how about the 1-1/2 ounce (approximate) shift of weight balance from right to left as the bullet and powder go down range from the first barrel fired?

I have no way to calculate any theoretical changes in point of impact from these factors, and I really don't want to get Todd started on the numbers, unless he just has time to kill.

I just question whether there is any detectable difference at the target for most of us, as Will says. I certainly don't see it at fifty yards when I am getting 1.6" to 3" composite 4 shot groups depending on the handload used.

I would never be shooting 4 shot groups at game at 150 yards anyway, nor would Will apparently. That would generally be one shot from a cold barrel, period. You know: "One shot meat! Two shots maybe! Three shots heap big shi#!"

It is possible that an individual barrel would be closer to the mark at a given range, and that is the barrel that I would select for the long shot, if I knew my rifle well.

My Merkel in its best form will put two rounds from the right barrel touching (overlapping holes) at about 3/4" above the point of aim, and two rounds from the left barrel touching (overlapping holes) at about 3/4" below the point of aim. This is when fired either way, right-left-right-left or left-right-left-right, using the 50 meter leaf. Two shots high and two shots low, around a 2" composite group, barrels crossing at a velocity of close to 2100 fps with the 500 grain 470 NE Merkel.

With this pattern known, I would indeed use the right barrel for a deliberately aimed far shot, and if I am being charged the second shot going lower will not hurt as the animal reduces the range.

In my situation with this gun, happily it makes no difference what the situation is, right-left works best no matter what ... except for the selection of soft or solid bullet. This is taken care of by always knowing that you have a soft in the right and a solid in the left ... or both solids ... or both softs in some situations like maybe following up a wounded leopard, or some plains game hunting.

But always if mixing softs and solids, the first shot is a soft from the right and the second is a solid from the left.

But if for some reason the solid first is needed, my gun does not care if the left barrel is fired first. It works fine enough. no significant difference at the target that I can see.

I am a devout follower of your gospel. I don't do it any other way than as you suggest. I was just trying to understand why. You have explained the theoretical reasons why. But does it make any practical difference?

Now you know that you are the "Double Rifle Guru Laureate" here. Whatever you have said is the double rifle gospel.

However, some of us are "unrepentant sinners."

Mac,

Thank you for the explanation. The deflections you describe are reasonable to expect, but I find it difficult to believe that ANY double rifle manufacturer truly tries to comprehend these deflections when regulating. Seriously, there is too much variation in ammunition to obtain a consistent thermal gradient. Remember, also that the solder joint integrity and the humidity in the air would pose significant variables in your model, which would be very problematic to control. Also, thermal expansion will continue with each successive shot (until the barrel temperature reaches the temperature of the burning powder) from each barrel. So, shot three (second round from right barrel) would exit a muzzle that was in a different position than when shot one was fired (first shot from right barrel). I promise that is all I am going to say about that!

I am one of those people, that if I have the option, will not cock both barrels. I do this more as a "safety" mechanism and it may just be my perculiar self. My reasoning is I can cock the second, right hand hammer, before I have the rifle back on target. At the same time I do not have to worry about a second unintentional firing, which my leave me without a needed second shot or a second shot that went somewhere it shouldn't.

With a modern double in 470 or bigger I would only be concerned with a double discharge if I was snap shooting for some reason, and due to my poor grip (remember I snap shot presumably because something big and bad is about to eat or squash me) I fingered the rear trigger because of the recoil from the right barrel going off. THIS would be assuming I was shooting right / left.

I would only add that I know some old geezers (that would mean they have been fertilizer for sometime) that would argue that the traditional manner of shooting the double rifle was left right. This was how I was taught to shoot them.

Thanks for the description of your 577, sounds like nice weapon. I think I will look for a nice 8 bore, particularly with all these excellent BP substitutes around. With that cannon if I miss and the beastie wants to come get me I have both a smoke screen and a sent blocker!

Todd E

DaggaRon, I fully understand your possition, on both loading, and shot sequince, also you,Will, and ToddE,are absolutely right in you collective belief that the seqince means absolutely nothing on an advanceing Buffalo, or Elephant, when one is not likely to even see the sights before fireing the first two shots. My objection to the statement that "IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE" is the reason for my response.

#1
The factory regulates in this sequince because though nothing will protect against all factors in the regulateing process, doing it the same way every time will modify their effect on the outcome. ToddE's statement that the right barrel would surely shoot the second shot to a different POA, but not as uch as one would think, since the left barrel has now warmed, and more or less equilizes the warp over both barrels. The only reason any of this is important to the owner shooter, is in working up your, as near as possible, "perfect" loads for your new rifle. By useing the same sequince as the regulator, you take away some of the problems handloaders run into when doing this.

#2
I think DaggaRon misunderstood about the 150 yd shots! That is probably my fault, as I have great difficulty in makeing myself understood, in print! I did not mean that four shot groups would ever be needed at 150 yds! What I meant was, if the loads were worked up with the barrels all warm, then the long shot with the right, or ("SET TRIGGER") barrel wouldn't be as precice as if it had been worked up as the first shot from the RT barrel on a cool rifle, followed by the lft, rt, and another lft. One other thing I may have not made clear is, the rifle should be let cool to ROOM TEMPRATURE before the next group is tried. IOW, every time you make a change in the load it should be fired with the rifle in condition COOL for the first shot of a four shot string. If the conditions of the barrels are different for every group you fire, you may never find the right load for your rifle, but then there is always luck! This is the only way you will know if the load will group right while hunting, starting with a cool barrel set. I have several double rifle that I bought cheaply, simply because the owner did not understand the process of handloading for a S/S double rifle! They sold me what they thought was a lemon, but that's where luck was in "MY" favor!

Mac,

Pointless to argue with me I still don't believe it. I give you that it could be so, but I don't believe it. I guess I have worked too long with certain European firms that spew stuff like that and it is all marketing hype (in their case anyway, and no, it was firearms related).

Jeffe,

What major US maker stated this "contrary" to conventional wisdom statement? There just aren't many US double rifle makers I would call major.

Todd E

[ 06-11-2002, 06:26: Message edited by: Todd E ]

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:37: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffeosso,
Please tell us who made this rifle. A 1-1/2 # trigger on a big bore double rifle is ridiculous. I thought you said that it was 1/5 # at one point above, in this thread. That was an even more bizarre concept. What is the pull weight on the other, or front trigger of this same gun?

It would seem to me that the trigger pulls should be as close to identical as possible on a big bore double rifle. This should be a fundamental concept: no surprises, please, Mr. Double Rifle Builder.

It sounds like a screwup from the start. Surely your friend did not order such an odd specification of trigger pulls?

There should be no hesitation for the maker to make that gun right, in a hurry! There should be hesitation to take that gun to Africa after dangerous came. Good luck to your buddy.

BTW, what is the significance of your signature line?: "... just remember, there was a wild boar that saw the other end of this ..."

[ 06-11-2002, 13:45: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

After reading and re reading all the complaints on this rifle, I for one am becomming a little suspecious of these claims...

I cannot imagine any of todays double rifle manufacturers doing these claimed things to one of their guns...I have shot and played with them all, Merkle, Searcy, William O. Douglas, Chapious, and that funny german gun with the funky safty and I have never seen any of them as you describe.

All these manufacturers are first class and seldom have problems and when they do, they fix them...Are you sure someone hasn't monkied with this gun without your knowledge...This sounds like a gun to me that has been worked over by a gunbutcher, someone without any double gun knowledge or some shotgun smith...I'd love to inspect this one personally.

I simply am amazed by this post!

I have seen some real dogs come out of so-called " CUSTOM " gunsmiths, but from a double rifle builder of rifles that would include a 577NE? Like Ray, I find it hard to believe any of the makers I'm aware of would even let this thing out of his plant.

I do hope,however, Jeffeosso (Boss Bear)you have your information right! If not, I would be a little reluctant to make these claims on the internet, unless I had my shit together! These are very serious accusations. I can certainly understand you not makeing the name public, but I can't see useing the very thin vailed claims in the first place if you will not name the accused! Insinuation is cowardly, if you can't back it, don't say it, if you say it, have the guts to back it!

What I was thinking was that jeffeosso did a trigger job on his buddy's double rifle.

Nothing he said above contradicts my "sneaking suspicion."

There are some inconsistencies in the story, above.

Well Jeff, are you gonna finish the story?

DaggaRon and Atkinson,
Let me help you out with this, before the name calling begins. I have NOT "done a trigger job" on this rifle. That's a rather ridiculas claim, as I know I am not a double rifle smith.
revised, deleted

[ 11-26-2002, 18:39: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

btw, the "wild boar thing" relates to when I was treed as a kid.

revised, deleted

it's pappa bear, btw.. colloquial spanish, texmex

jeffe

[ 11-26-2002, 18:40: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:40: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Jeffe,

I have my suspicions who this maker might be from things I have heard in the past. If in fact this is an American maker!

Mac,

I hope your post was as it is seemed in jest. You are most certaintly entitled to you beliefs and opinions. What you stated regarding regulation is indeed plausible. I just personally don't believe that many makers go to such lengths to insure accuracy in a double rifle. I for one have fired an H&H 500 NE that will not shoot better than 4 inch groups right left or left right at 100 yards. One barrel shoots higher than the other. Load development only spread the group horizontally. So is this bad? I don't think so because 4" is 2/3 minute of Ele heart is it not, and 1/2 minute of Ele brain!

With regard to custom smiths. I know several, that I cannot for the life of me, figure out how they got the reputation they have. I do most of my own work now. That way I can only sue myself.

To the rest of you. I would not discredit jeffeosso so quickly. In my experience there are many so called Great Gun Makers that are total screw ups. I have been burned by a few myself. The end result of their (the Gun Maker's) incompetence was my increased gunsmithing capability.

Todd E

jeffeosso,
My apologies. The 1/5 instead of 1.5 typo is just the sort of thing we all do. I really don't have a leg to stand on in accusing you. This was just a little cross examination stress, to test your story. Please excuse me. I look forward to the "list."

Feel free to email me some verbal abuse or do it right here. The truth and the facts are all that matters.

We don't have to kiss any ass around here. I say let the guy lie in the grave he has dug, or explain himself and the problem from his side of the story, meaning the builder of course.

And, as you suggested, to hear from the injured party first hand instead of from his friend would also be more objective.

I had a "custom" gun maker make a 30.06 for me using an Obendorf Mauser. Had to send this custom gun to a real gunsmith to get it to feed correctly, stop slam firing and to put shots on the paper. Nice gun now.

Not to be stupid but who else is an American maker of double rifles other than Searcy and Rigby.

Can anyone make a guess as to how many new double rifles are sold in the US each year. It cannot be big enough that a gun maker could stay in business and put out poor quality for long.

BigB

BigB,

To answer your question yes there are other double rifle makers in the USA besides those you mentioned. There are very few who will make a 577NE for $15000.

Todd E

just got in from moving.. gimme a few minutes

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:41: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:42: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

This is absoultely the saddest thing I have read on the internet about a double rifle maker! I know some are arrogant, some have a right to be, but nobody has the right to be an absolute thief!

After the hundreds of rifles I have personally examined by almost every maker, and converter of double rifles, here and abroad, I simply can't believe anything this screwed up could get out of the factory, much less not be made right!

This, my friends,is a sad state of affaires!

I thought I remembered Jeffe saying something about doubling on the double rifle action strength thread and he did. In that thread he made a comment about a Searcy Double Rifle doubling. He was chastising me for my comments regarding the effect of a double fire on a double being equalized by a double powder charge in a magazine rifle.

Armed with this tid bit I would have to say that Jeffeosso is referring to none other than Butch Searcy!

Todd E

Todd,
Thats hard to believe, I have shot, stripped, cleaned and even re-regulated too many Searcys to believe this gun to be a Searcy..

If it is then I just do not believe it...there are more Searcy doubles in use in our camps than any other double rifle and I have shot too many of them to believe this gun is a Searcy, but if it is then I believe someone has been tinkering with it and tinkering a bunch...

Johan Calitz and all his PH's use Searcy rifles...They hold up so much better than English guns due to fit and finish and modern steel, according to them..

As to pulling the rear trigger first, this has historicaly been a practice in calibers above 500 N.E. because of recoil. It is hard to hold them in recoil and the big boomers jerk the hand back and pull the back trigger when one pulls the forward trigger first, the bigger the hand the more likely this is to happen...a well documented fact. Below 577 they normally use rt. lft. rt. lft.

I suspect this whole thing is something for the courts to settle, and I dislike a one sided story...Usually there are two sides to any arguement. The judge weighs the evidence and makes a determination.

If I was on the other side of this story and it was false I would be filing a law suit on JeffeOso and not say jack squat on this forum.

I think it is wrong to bring up Searcys name on this forum based on a whim or guess...I think this whole thing is between the maker and the owner and not a third party...This whole thread is starting to stink and take on a lynch mob atmostphere, and as usual it's being started by one individual...

Also, I know Butch personally and he has always treated me and many others on this board fairly and has earned our respect. He has posted here many times, We all visit every year at SCI, and he always has a kind word..This stated behavior is in contrast to the Butch I know and have delt with in the past. I suspect however if someone is jerking him around, then he could become a little testy...

I always get a little suspecious when folks start laying out there dirty laundry on these forums.