Ray,

I agree with you regarding the airing of dirty laundry. It is pretty obvious who jeffeosso is refering to with his $15000 577 NE. No other major US maker I know of offers such a good deal on such a large double. I just went back to the other thread, which had nothing to do about Searcy doubles until Butch chimed in I might add, and saw jeffeosso's post regarding the doubling 577NE Searcy his "friend" has. I just put two and two together and posted it here. If you don't believe me Ray go to the "Double Rifle Action Strength" thread and look for jeffeosso's post. He pretty much says it all right there. I mean he leaves very little left for the imagination.

I don't want anything more to do with this entire business. I know nothing about Searcy's rifles except some hear say which I will not comment on good bad or indifferent.

I will say that jeffeosso seems to be aweful PO'd at this maker who "screwed" his "friend". I suspect that jeffeosso may in fact be his own "friend". I really don't care though one bit.

Todd E

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:44: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Well hell's bells! Someone has gone back and edited his post, as of 6/13/02! You know, I counted the pages of that thread that I printed off. As of 6/4/02 it was almost 36 pages of paper long, two web pages of 56 posts.

Why don't we all just sweep this under the rug then, eh?

It looks like all involved parties have been given an excuse to shut up.

To protect the possibly innocent, I have edited this post likewise.

[ 06-13-2002, 08:22: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:45: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Jeffeoso,
My only take on this is why are you butting in on something that doesn't actually concern you..Are you this guys protector??

This is something to be settled between the two parties, friend or not, your out of line IMHO. Peoples names are being guessed at, tossed around, and harm could be done to them without cause and thats not fair..

This is for the courts to settle, not you or this forum. This is not a place to air dirty laundry..After the courts rule then air it.

I still believe from your claims that someone else has tinkered with this gun as I know of no gun maker that would allow a gun out of his shop that looked and acted like the one you describe..I would have to see that myself and again I would love to inspect that rifle, it's easy to tell if one has been tinkered with..Perhaps there are things that you do not know of..just a thought.

As to where it hits then that can be an eyesight thing or recoil thing, but it it shot off center all you have to do is move the sight right or left and file it in for zero..No-0ne else can sight in a rifle for another and that's one of the falacys of your claim..It it shoots 1.5" then thats awsome for a double and 4" has long been exceptable in doubles, particularly the bigger ones. thats just an example and I won't critique your claims, but a lot of your complaints are just strange and near unacceptable to me...if I am wrong then I will apologise..I suppose time will tell.

Is this guy really your friend or are you the owner of the gun as some believe??

Add to the above a situation that brings suspecion on this thread..is the Lenth of pull, I have made a lot of rifles and I have stocked a lot of doubles...How tall is your friend and what is his shirt sleeve lenth...Because at 13.25 he would have to be about 5 ft. plus a mite tall and at 15" he would have to be a pro basketball player such as Shack....I would think on a $15,000 rifle a form was filled out and available.

None of us can really tell what happened, of course, because we were not there. Generally it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to try to keep his customer satisfied. Then again, some customers cannot be satisfied.

I was ripped by the Express Rifle Company (Robert and Ellen Bastow), so I have sympathy with others who feel they were not treated properly.

To Whom It May Concern and Jeffeosso,

The customer that Jeffe is talking about originally ordered a Field Grade 500 N.E. 3 1/4" on 5/23/01. Included on the order was the following custom extras: extra front sight, trap grip cap, one fixed two folding rear sight and a mercury recoil reducer. This is an additional $1040.00 value.

On 7/24/01 the customer calls me with a request to change his order. Now mind you, I was only 3 weeks from completion of his original order and informed him of that. He was a very impatient customer, for the original order was made with the stipulation that I get on the rifle right away, which I had done. His change wasn't to the rifle originally ordered, he now wanted a Deluxe Model 577 NE. I agreed to the change because I had a customer that I could send the 500 NE to. He also complained that he had already purchased dies, brass and bullets for the 500. I had him send them to me, with his bill and I would allow him the price he had paid for them on his final bill, which I did.

I use a fit up sheet for my customers that can't visit me here at the shop. This is what I used for the customer. If as Jeffe stated, I'd been given any dimensions to use, I would have used them.

I shipped the rifle on 11/6/01. This rifle represented my Deluxe Grade rifle fully. In fact, it is the rifle that is still on my web site under Deluxe Grade 577, < http://www.searcyent.com/577b.htm >. Also the custom options he ordered with the Field Grade I added at no cost to him, to the Deluxe Grade. The length of pull was 14 1/4", this can be checked by all of you. On the photo the barrels are 24 1/2", with that dimension you should be able to check for yourself the LOP. Oh, let me know if you see any green. Upon receiving the rifle the customer and his inner circle of friends checked the rifle out, and his comments made it very clear that they were expecting a best quality rifle. My Deluxe grade is not best quality, but it is a very nice rifle for the money. His complaint that the LOP was too short is the only reason I agreed to restock the rifle, which I did. His letter to me also listed these other items of concern. 15" LOP, more cast & drop, longer grip, and refinish and reblue barrels. All this I did and shipped the rifle back to him on 12/31/01.

Some time later the customer called me and informed me that the rifle was doubling on him. I had FedEx pick up the rifle and return to me. Upon inspection and 10 rounds through the rifle, I couldn't make it double. So I had my shop foreman shoot 10 rounds though it. It didn't double for him either, but he did say that he felt his finger hit the rear trigger a time or two. We took the rifle apart and checked the sear engagement and springs. They were fine, and the reason we checked the them was because the customer stated that he had already put over 250 rounds through the rifle. Before sending the rifle back, I had the sear engagement increased, giving at least an eighth inch of creep and I added a slave spring to the left trigger also. I informed the customer of my findings and also of what I had done to his rifle. I also SUGGESTED he use the rear trigger first, because I felt the problem was his finger slapping the rear trigger. And that was all I said about using the rear trigger.

The next time I heard from the customer was just before I was to leave for my annual trade shows. The rifle had gone out of regulation and this is definitely my responsibility to fix. I asked the customer if the fix could wait until I got back and he agreed. I received the rifle the first week of April this year. With every rifle I send out, I send info about the rifle. Part of this info states that I will honor all problems with the rifle as long as no one else performs any gunsmithing on the rifle. Now Jeffe claims no one had done any work on the rifle, WRONG! Check out the photo at <http://searcyent.com/info.htm>. That block of steel in the lower right portion of the action - I didn't put it there. The wires going to the trigger and sear I also didn't put there. The photos below the action show the sears which had also been altered. The rifle was sent back regulated properly.

In May, the customer calls me and wants to know what I'm going to do about the triggers. I let him know that he or his gunsmith need to take care of that since they were the last to do a fix on them. And that I didn't have the time to play anymore games with him.

I feel that I tried very hard to make this work. And I also feel the biggest problem through all of this was Jeffe and all of the customer's "expert friends".

It is always good to hear the other side...

Sincerely,
Carcano

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:45: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Sounds like to me you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar or shall we say the trigger mech...Wheres the green in that stock and I would love to have a piece of walnut that was colored green, very rare you know???, Hacksawed? yeah right.
shoots left? big deal take a hammer and knock the sight over for goodness sake. Shoots 1.5" and thats awsome for your information.. It's all sour grapes from my point of view....and some good advise is don't go to court, you will lose your a$$ and half of Georgia...

Also it is IMPOSSIBLE to double at the same instant, can't be done...the only way to tell how close it doubled is to check the target and see how close the bullets are to each other. I've had a few doubles ( all double guns will double sooner or later if not tuned regularly)and it sounds like one shot and leaves you plumb numb, so you couldn't possibly make such a flat out statement cuz it just rings your bell. 99% of time when a rifle doubles it will shoot off the face at that point to one degree or the other.

I am still wondering what size your friend is why he thinks he shoots a 15" pull on a double rifle and that alone can cause doubleing if the stock is too long it jerks your hand back in recoil....if its too short it will feed you your thumb...13.25 would likly fit a small woman or midget...So how high is this guy!!

I am not taking sides in this matter but buy your own statements I just don't believe your being fourthright...wires and blocks I have never seen in a double rifle, only in old shotguns repaired by butchers...

Butch,

I for one would like to thank you for straightening things out.

Ray,

I agree with you. I for one would not want to have a 577 double on me. By the way, I am not an NBA star and I can handle a 15 LOP. I am 6'2" tall with a 48" chest. My arm length is 36.5".

$15000 is dirt cheap for a 577 NE too. Seriously Jeffe it isn't much cash. Try buying one from a continental maker or worse yet a Brit. That $15000 would make an acceptable deposit!

Todd E

I think the key statement here is "for 15K a reasonable person whould expect to be blown away". I wish that were true but I think double rifles for 10 - 15K you get a very good working firearm. When I looked at doubles at SCI the blown away minimum was over 50K.

Well we have now heard both sides of the story But I am still not sure why the rifle doubles. Other than operator induced error.

BigB

That is a beautiful rifle, and the fact that it is not in my safe makes my heart ache!

Clearly Butch bent over backwards to satisfy the customer.

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:46: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:47: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Why was the trigger modified? That does not seem to have been a wise move.

Jeffe,

Actually, I meant to say that $15000 WOULD NOT make an acceptable deposit on a new Continental or British made double in 577 NE.

I have an old used Jeffery 475 No2 that would go for what you friend paid for that brand new 577 NE. If that Searcy is all that bad your friend could get that H&H 577 NE Sidelock that Champlin's has for sale. I believe it is around $42000. That is very good price for a H&H sidelock in 577 NE. I would look it over very very carefully. It may need a little work to be at 100%. It is a Royal too if I recall, so your friend would be getting himself a best gun! FYI, a new H&H Royale 577 NE would set your friend back about $100,000 and require a 3 year wait (if you are lucky). He would have a best gun though.

Purdey's used to be just a tad more, with perhaps a slightly worse waiting period.

Cogswell & Harrison will beat both the price and waiting period. Last I spoke with them you could get yourself a 577 NE for a measely $60000 and 2 years wait. Now there is a deal!

The only thing in your story, which does bother me is the part about the muzzle wedge coming "unglued". That sounds an aweful lot like a quality problem. That said from all accounts the Maker stood behind his product on that one didn't he.

When you measure the LOP, which trigger did you measure to?

Todd E

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:48: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:49: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffeosso,
That is one fickle friend you got there. Are you sure he isn't a woman? Maybe it is "crying time" for her/him/it. Better do a crotch check on "it" next time you see it, you know, like Crocodile Dundee, g'day! Excuse me while I go vomit.

Seriously, that sounds like your friend broke the contract with Butch, in a way, when he wanted to switch guns a few weeks short of completion.

Totally unreasonable. I cannot believe Butch would bend over backwards for that. All that last minute scrambling would not be possible with any other maker in the world, surely.

Butch,
You better not be so nice to the bastards anymore. Give 'em an inch and they will take a mile.

[ 06-14-2002, 08:32: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

Jeffeoso,
Your story is falling apart piece by piece, now you don't know about the wires and block in the triggers and why Butch won't fix them...I guarentee you someone mucked up those triggers because the Searcy doubles have no wires or blocks in them and none have .006 on the safty or hacksawed barrels...Apparantly someone has been hard at work and wants old Butch to fix their screw up...All Walnut is dark with a light matrix, thats the nature of Walnut, called Marble cake in the trade and if you have green it's worth a cool million...I smell a rat on this deal, and it ain't Butch Searcy.

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[ 11-26-2002, 18:50: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Welllllll folks, it seems the story is a little different now! Quote "I had NOTHING to do with the mods/wires, Etc." This statement alone tells me Butch is right, the rifle has been tinkered by a plumber, and the result belongs to the owner!

Jeffe's question about if a double rifle being re_regulated by anyone other than the maker, voids the warranty. The answer to this question is a resounding "YES"

In this case, Butch warrantied everything but the mods made by someone else. it is also my opinion that an attempt was made to re-regulate this rifle as well, by the same pipe bender that did the mods, but Butch took care of that anyway,I would not have!

I wouldn't have warantied any of the rifle, after someone else tinkered with it,even the owner himself! In the first place when the change in order came accross my desk, the customer would have been told, in no uncertain terms, if he wanted a 577NE up grade rifle, I would be happy to build him one when he paid me for the 500NE I had already built for him!

This rifle is a real bargain at $15K, but even at $15K, a $2 machanic can screw it up beyond repair! It is my opinion, this is exactly what happened here!

[ 06-14-2002, 19:44: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Based on reading over the whole thread again, I believe we are not hearing the whole story concerning the Trigger. It appears to me as if someone modified the trigger to lighten it up and missed and got to much. This then started causing the doubling which lead to the complaint about the trigger being to light........

Where there's smoke there is fire.
Kudo's to Butch for all the work he did trying to resolve the issue.
15K for a new double is a GREAT price.
Top Shelf piece NOT EVEN CLOSE!

MHO
Greg

I still think that is a truly beautiful rifle and a steal at a mere $15K.

The web address Butch put in for the unauthorized modifications left out the www

http://www.searcyent.com/info.htm

These mods look pritty crude to me!

I mention that I had re-regulated a Searcy and I was referring to the sights because oso talked about being 6" to the right..I have filed them for height and moved them over for zero to adjust them to my eyesight...Obviously this guy doesn't understand that no-one can sight in a rifle for another unless they just get lucky as we all see the sights differently....

I have my Jefferys tuned up each year by a competent gunsmith, not a butcher, and if it were a Searcy and I sent it to Butch he would honor it unless it had been butchered by someone such as done in the photographs above...

Plain and simple, this guy should be taken to court for slander..He has been exposed and showed to be a counterfiet but I doubt that Butch will do that, but if they take him to court you will see a sho nuff a$$ kicking, they have no leg to stand on..I also have knowledge that the stock was also refinished with a high gloss polyurathane by the same guy that fixed the triggers, uh huh!!

Also in an earlier post this guy stated his client was in Africa and now he is leaving tomarrow, if I'm not mistaken...

what a joke.

Jeffe, you should check out the rifle again, It has a semi-beaver tail forearm, which was requested on the second stock. The rifle in the photo has a splinter forearm. The rifle shoots under 2" groups 1" high at fifty. I found out later that the customer was using a six o'clock hold. I will not make a DGR to shoot anything but a dead on hold. This all is bullshit, and I'll not address this subject anymore. I have much more pressing maters to address.

Ray,

Just curious as to what a tune up of a double rifle means. Also instead of once per year do you have a suggestion based on number of rounds thru the gun as a frequency to get a tune up.

BigB

Big B,
When I get back from Africa, I send the gun to Lee LaBas, L&L Int., Carson City, Nv. or David Yale, Yellow Jacket, Colo. to check it out..new firing pins, springs, trigger sears, check the face....

I think one should do this every 500 rounds at least in a double as they are pretty finicky....I can do these things myself, but these guys work on them constantly throughout the year and when my butt is on the line I prefer their expertise. they don't charge a lot to check these things out so I figure it's worth the trouble.

I have seen English doubles come off the face in 300 rounds and come unregulated for no apparant reason, stock shrink? whatever...

Doubles are a wonderfull gun, but they must be studied and understood because they are a whole nuther world of gundom and frankly they are a pain in the kazoo....but I love'em.

Big B,
When I get back from Africa, I send the gun to Lee LaBas, L&L Int., Carson City, Nv. or David Yale, Yellow Jacket, Colo. to check it out..new firing pins, springs, trigger sears, check the face....

I think one should do this every 500 rounds at least in a double as they are pretty finicky....I can do these things myself, but these guys work on them constantly throughout the year and when my butt is on the line I prefer their expertise. they don't charge a lot to check these things out so I figure it's worth the trouble.

I have seen English doubles come off the face in 300 rounds and come unregulated for no apparant reason, stock shrink? and overload, too many rounds, whatever...

Doubles are a wonderfull gun, but they must be studied and understood because they are a whole nuther world of gundom and frankly they are a pain in the kazoo....but I love'em.

This has been a very interesting thread. I thourghly enjoyed it right up to part about refinishing one of Butch's doubles with a "high gloss polyurathane." Now I feel a little nauseous - I think I'm going to have to take off work for the rest of the day.

I don't have the money for a double now (the $$$s are going to my first African safari) but I have considered getting a double from Butch when the time is right. After this thread I have changed my mind from considering a Searcy to making a Searcy my first choice. I now know that Butch really does go the extra mile for his customers and tries his damndest to please. Mr Searcy you have my respect and future business.

John

Ditto JKS.

This affair has increased the good will toward Butch Searcy, no doubt. Ought to bring him more business.