Anyone know what's going on?

I found this over at the African Hunting forums:


http://www.africahunting.com/f...empire-rifles-9.html

Which I got from a link on another board where a group sending in deposits on Empire's new scout rifles have seen no rifles, and no refunds.

Comments like this:

quote:

If you know anyone else that is…out cash and has not gotten a rifle please urge them to contact Chief Paul Roberts @ 603-643-2222 - NOW.

quote:

Just got off the phone with a guy from HI who just spoke to the Plainfield Police Chief. He wants our victims to get their info together . According to him, Sandmann's victim list is up to 87.

One poster on the AH forums claims he has been waiting over 4 years for his $15,000 .416 Rigby???

There are a great many horror stories surrounging Empire. I am sure that Mr. McClung, a talented, honest man and some say the poster child for Often Wrong But Never in Doubt, wishes that he had never heard of Empire, or Mr. Sandmann.

Makes D'Arcy Echols 5-digit Legend rifles look positively reasonable. Big difference: order from Echols, and you actually receive the rifle that you paid for.

Good hunting.

Do a search on AR for "Empire" and you will find some info.

Of course, you should do such a search - then call george and talk with him.

george is a friend of mine.. i am biased,

i am unaware of anyone ACTUALLY loosing a cent, unless they canceled their rifle, and "forgot" about the non-refundable part of the deposit.

for 1/2 the price of most competitors, yeah, he makes a darn good rifle.

I did a search on here, and found nothing close to what was posted on other forums.

And I am aware that many folks here have those rifles, which is why I asked. I figured someone may have some aditional details.

I bought a Rifle from George in 2006. It was a 500 Jeffery that never fed properly. After several trips back to Empire for repair, the rifle still wasn't right.

With George's blessing, I sent the rifle to Duane Wiebe for evaluation. Duane said that not only did the rifle not feed properly, but that the headspacing was off as well.

At that point the rifle was sent back to Empire and I asked for a refund. After having to get my attorney involved, George agreed to build a replacement rifle.

That was in January of 2009. In early 2010 I started calling George asking for updates on the rifle. Every time we talked, George assured me that the rifle would be ready soon.

At this point, George is no longer returning my calls. I do not have a rifle and have no reason to believe that I ever will.

I have an Empire in 505 Empire that was built for Terry Wieland. It's a beautiful rifle, but one would expect that on a rifle built for review by a well-read gunwriter. As with just about any DGR made today, it would hang up on the last round in the magazine. I had the masters at Griffin & Howe polish and slick it up for my load of 600gr solids. Very nice piece...it's a shame what's happened with the company.

I am inclined to agree with a suggestion from a post made a while back. If you want a custom rifle, find one that is already built.
Go to Reno or where ever the SCI has there show and you will find thousands to choose from. A seller might even let you test it a a range and work some rounds through it off site.
I am a big DSC supporter however there seems to be a much larger offering of firearms at the SCI. A lot of high end stuff!
If you do not mind waiting a few years, go ahead and wing it. I have had a few made and was extremely pleased but it was 2-3 years before I recieved them and I had no money down. I did provide the action, wood, bottom metal etc.

I am proud to know George as well!

There was a time not so long ago that I had seriously contemplated on having a rifle built by one of the high end custom builders and had budgeted funds in excess of the 10K mark. That is big money to me for a bolt gun and frankly the reason I did not go through with it is such reports constantly showing up about builders ripping clients off and apparently there is no recourse, legally that is. I have bought some much lesser priced firearms from Griffin and Howe and find them to be excellent. How many years have they been in business now-since the early 20's!! They seem to hang in there through thick and thin and if I ever get back into the mood to drop that kind of coin again, it will be with Griffin and Howe. Probably won't happen though for I bought a Harley Davidson even though the gun would have been cheaper.

MFD, yes, Paul and his folks there at G&H are honest, knowledgeable, and do get in some nice pieces.

I have replied to every Empire thread on AR since I joined that George charged my credit card for $8500 in Nov 2006 and has not delivered it.

For 2 1/2 years I was lied to about it's status, and in 2009 I was told Empire was out of money and my barreled action "was being held hostage by a vendor"

Dec 29 2010 I was sent a PM by George right here on AR that my rifle was "virtually finished". No rifle to date.

George has stopped responding to my e mails.

In short, I am out $8500.

I have all of the e mails from George.

Any friend of George's is no friend of mine.

Oh, Jim Manion, look up the "boutique rifles" thread here in big bores from 2010.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim in MI:
Oh, Jim Manion, look up the "boutique rifles" thread here in big bores from 2010.

I did, but it did not quite touch on the information in my initial post.

It seems to have gone from a couple of people having issues, to many more.

If one does a yahoo or google search of "empire rifles" accurate reloading does not come up, but africa hunting is right at the top.

I think that is why people coming forward with their problems with Empire are posting on the africa hunting forums.

I myself type "Empire rifles" on yahoo just to see what else may be going on with them.

This thread seems to be very familiar...in a Greg Hein sort of way.
The posters on this forum have always been very helpful so I have a suggestion. Why don't those of you who know George, know how to contact him, and/or call him a friend, offer your help to Jim in MI to see if he can either get his money back or his rifle delivered.

I went to George's farm in 2009 or 2008 to check him out. He does not build rifles, he is not a gunsmith nor a stockmaker. He parcels out the various pieces of the rifles to 1) a machinist who makes the action, 2) barrel fitter to get the barrel to screw onto the action, 3) a trigger guy to install a trigger, then a 4) stock man to do the the wood work.

I saw several of his rifles. They are fine, looked good but the actions were "scratchy" and did not feel as smooth as many factory actions.

All he does at his farm is sell, advertise, collect the money and ship the final rifle. He shoots some when they come in to verify they will shoot.

Overall, I was not going to do business with a parts broker that did not know how to build what he was selling.

Good luck to all in getting settled.

I ordered a rifle from George in Feb. of 06, it took 2 years, a lawyer and a lawsuit to finally get the rifle that was quoted by George for 6 mos. I will say that once I got it, it was a beautiful, well balnced, good working rifle. I discovered in the process the same thing Dogcat stated, Empire does not make rifles, he contracts others to make rifles. The only thing slower and unreliable than a gunsmith is 5 or 6 gunsmiths building a single rifle, one piece at a time all over the country.

I took a look at a Empire last year at a Griffen and Howe booth at the DSC. It ws a nice gun but as you mention, the action was rough or "scratchy". The price was about $9K. I would think there would be more attention to detail for that sum. I have had a few rifles made what I believe to be a far superior product for about $5K. Those projects did take some time. I think I might just have AHR make me a custom 404 in the future. Think I might get it in six months and not loose any sleep over it.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I went to George's farm in 2009 or 2008 to check him out. He does not build rifles, he is not a gunsmith nor a stockmaker. He parcels out the various pieces of the rifles to 1) a machinist who makes the action, 2) barrel fitter to get the barrel to screw onto the action, 3) a trigger guy to install a trigger, then a 4) stock man to do the the wood work.

I saw several of his rifles. They are fine, looked good but the actions were "scratchy" and did not feel as smooth as many factory actions.

All he does at his farm is sell, advertise, collect the money and ship the final rifle. He shoots some when they come in to verify they will shoot.

Overall, I was not going to do business with a parts broker that did not know how to build what he was selling.

Good luck to all in getting settled.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
I am inclined to agree with a suggestion from a post made a while back. If you want a custom rifle, find one that is already built.

There are some great custom gun rifle makers out there, but be prepared to wait several years for your rifle. If you are looking for a deal on a "custom rifle" look at SCI, gunbroker, gunsinternational, there was a pretty wood stocked DuMoulin Mauser in 416 Rigby and a synthetic stocked DuMoulin 505 Gibbs on gunbroker a bit ago, they're probably still there.

Empire could have been a major player I believe. Too bad Sandmann's lack of proper business etiquette and acumen got in the way of things.

In the end, Empire and Hein demonstrate why the free market works; sooner or later all the weeds come outta the garden. Me? I'm satisfied with Winchesters.

It appears as though Kilimanjaro Rifles has the delivery issue figured out and is running with sound business processes.

Their site says "Our standard production schedule for our custom wood-stocked rifles is nine to ten months from date of first deposit, and subject to action availability, we guarantee delivery of your rifle within this time. Because of the necessary acclimation and cure periods in our production process to achieve Kilimanjaro’s demanding standards, minimum production time is eight months. Our Jaguar Rifles can usually be delivered in quicker fashion. Production time on our Historical Rifles is dependent on each individual order and the parts which must be hand-made for each."

I haven't heard of a failure on their part tpo live up to their contract.

Might be wirth a visit at the DSC or SCI.


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