Let me try this again; I'm requesting assistance and information to have a 500 Jeffrey built and would like to hear from 500 owners or any other qualified builder/owner/shooter, about the 500 Jeffrey, Improved or AHR or similar versions. Even those with 505 Gibbs if you like it as much or more that the Jeffrey or variations there of. Thanks in Advance.

Good Hunting,

Zedman

Unless you just have to have a 500 Jeffrey, I'd recomend the 500 A-square, or one of the other varients based on the 460 Weatherby case. The difficulty and expense of getting the brass is an issue to consider. In hindsight, I'd rather have less expensive brass that is easier to get ahold of. The 460 case is slightly smaller, so perhaps you give up a tad in velocity when loaded to max levels. That said, you probaby won't often be thinking, 570 gr @ 2400 fps isn't enough, I should have gotten the Jeffrey, which would maybe allow another 50 fps over the 500 A2. If I'm going to spend $4-5 a case, and maybe have to wait several months to get the brass, I'd rather have a larger bore. If the 550 mag had been a reality when I started my 500 four or so years ago, I would have probably gone that route.

Asside from that, I haven't had time to finish my rifle. I had John Ricks barrel it, and it shoots very well. I need to make a magazine, work out the feeding, and stock it. Somehow finding time to do that while building a boat just hasn't happened.

I said it all in my emails. The 505 Gibbs is an excellent cartridge and choice as well.

ASS_CLOWN

I have a 500 AHR. Ed builds nice rifles with excellent woodwork. Splurge on his checkering. I would suggest you use a GMA action for a 500 AHR or ( worse yet a Jeffery). most assuredly for a 505 Gibbs. The CZ550 action simply will not accept a mag box wide enough to correctly stack 500 Jeffery/AHR cartridges. You wind up with a compromise and feeding problems up the wazoo! Ed does now have a single stack mag that might work, but I'll bet in the end the price difference won't be far behind a GMA action. The GMA is far more expensive, but you can EASILY modify it for the 500Jeff ( remember it has a severly rebatted rim and is notorious for feeding problems, or the 500 AHR which was designed with a larger rim). In my discussions with EDE we both have agreed that this is the best solution. Yes it's costly, but it will work more reliably than the CZ550! I'm not dissing the CZ550, but I speak from experience. As for the 505 Gibbs, lots of nostalgia and a damn impressive looking cartridge but not all that more powerful than a 500 AHR. Finally, with another brass buy in the works why not consider a 600 OK. ED and I have the bugs worked and it won't cost you any more than the 500 AHR. You get much more flexibility ( you can load up or down) and frankly it feeds way better than either 500. Ask ED or feel free to give me a call!-Rob

Although I have only one AHR built rifle I'll chime in. Ed does good quality work and is reasonably priced to boot.

I waited almost 18 months for my 600 OK but Ed wanted to get the feeding issues worked out for absolute reliability. The solution is a very workable one that should also help with the 500 calibers you mention.

His stock work is excellent.

All that being said I would suggest you have a 500A2 if you want a 50 bore. It is a lot cheaper to load for and components (brass) are easy to come by. Also modifying a CZ to feed the 500A2 is not very difficult but the others, well that's a completely different project. I have to agree with RGB on the use of the GMA for the Jeffery and Gibbs especially. I don't know enough about the AHR to comment on it.

The 600 OK is proving to be an exceptionally versatile cartridge. Using 725 gr bullets and 165 gr of 7828 it kicks like a 375 but still packs enough whoop ass to take on anything. With the 900 gr solids it will penetrate 3 feet of living pine. Give it some thought. Ed's new magazine box solves the feeding problems with a drop in solution and you can use the CZ to cut costs, although I wouldn't push it as hard in a CZ as I would in the GMA.

JMO

jpb,

I believe that recoil level assumes a 13- or 14lb. rifle.

George

George, I think it also assumes mounted on a tire! :-)

I think that the gibbs could be done well on a CZ550 from what has been discussed here before on CZ-USA maybe making some. which reminds me it is time to contact that fella there again and see if they are in the works, as I promised I would buy one.

Red

The 600 Ok's are built on 13-14lb rifles, with well designed muzzel brakes, mercury recoil reducers, GOOD RECOIL PADS and very straight stocks. With the load Fritz 454 quoted it does kick like a .375 H&H. You can also load it up to whatever level you can stand! I will let anyone who wants to shoot it and IT WILL NOT hurt you. In fact, my 125lb wife has shot it. I have shot .378 WBY's and IMHO they kick worse than the .600 OK. There is a reaon, BAD DESIGN! BAD Execution. Try a hot .505 Gibbs in a 9lb rifle. That HURTS!-Rob

jbp - I stand by my original assessment. The rifle weighs a bit less than 14 lbs, has 3 mercury tubes, a great brake and an excellent stock design. Believe it or not I don't care.

Sorry Zedman - my intention was not to hijack your post again.

John

Zedman,
I have owned a couple of 500 Jefferys that I built for myself for the mostpart or did the stockwork...It is a grand caliber and will outdo the 505 Gibbs by just a tad. Brass, bullets and dies are available from Huntingtons...

My business partner and Tanzanian PH, Pierre van Tonder shoots the 505 Gibbs and I took him a supply of brass and Bridger flat nose solids last year...He dearly loves the caliber and actually loads it down a tad as most Africans do, realizing the excess velocity in a big bore gains little if anything...

You have made an excellent choice and that caliber has excellent re sale value over most of the others as does its competitor the 505 Gibbs...You get a good dose of nostalgia with either of those calibers if thats important to you, it is to me, nostalgia is all part of decorating the tree. I feel sorry for those who missed this part of the game, it's their loss...

I seldom disagree with Robgunbuilder but I am not an advocate of "very" straight stocks, I like some drop in the comb, I want a bit of that recoil going up and a bit back, I do not like all of it coming straight back to me..I stock my bolt guns more like a double rifle or in the original English style...This may have more to do with ones built than anything else, do what feels best to you, not someone else....

Just how does one "outdo" a case of 180 grains of water capacity, utilizing a case of 160 grains of water capacity?

Nickudu,



Perhaps it has to do with the rifles. The Gibbs will get sticky before a Jeffery will, all barrel and action dimension being equal. Could also be powder choice.



EDIT



Potential of of the rifle / cartridge combination.



Rifle actions are the same for both

Barrel contours are the same for both



One rifle is a 500 Jeffery

One rifle is a 505 Gibbs



Both rifles are shooting 600 Grain Woodleighs



Loaded to the point the rifle yields (begins to giveway)



A 505 Gibbs loaded up with IMR4831 (a lot of it) will reach the threshold of yielding at a muzzle velocity of 2578 fps with the 600 grain Woodleigh.



A 500 Jeffery loaded up with IMR4350 (a little less than the 505 Gibbs was loaded with) will reach the threshold of yielding at a muzzle velocity of 2637 fps with the 600 grain Woodleigh.



There is something to be said about slightly smaller case diameters with regard to thrust and barrel bulging.



ASS_CLOWN

.

.

Nick,
You may be right with a handload, I was talking factory ammo and that is something I read several times from very knowledgeable writers????????

The 500 J can be built on a std m-98 action and thats a plus IMO...

I have shot and owned both, and both are equal in the field, I guarentee that, but the recoil is a bit much for me...I still like to enjoy my shooting.

Ray,

From your posting:

Nick,
You may be right with a handload, I was talking factory ammo

Ray,

What conditions you can think of where the 500 Jeffery would have more horsepower than the the 505 Gibbs with handloads......I just can't see where it is a case of....You may be right....To me, the 505 will win easily..not even a fucking contest

Of course for all those people who are burning up factory ammo in 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs....I am sure we will get reports on velocities.

Ray....you were drinking when you made that posting...Well, I hope you were drinking ... If that was a sober posting...

Mike

I don't own a 500 Jeffery, but a friend of mine has two. One is built on some sort of Remington action, weighs a ton, and is his "go-to" elephant gun. The other is also a custom rifle built by Augustus Schueler. I will try and find the details out about them, I'm going to go shoot them in two weeks, along with some other DG guns. A 505 Gibbs on a CZ-550 action would also be a good choice. I bet MRC could build you a 500 Jeffery action on their PH series.

Sevens

So, which case has more capacity the gibbs or the jeffery?

If you want a 505 Gibbs you need to call up Jerry Fisher and ask him if that double square bridged, color case hardened mausser action with the 26" barrel (I think Jerry said that was the original spec. on the gibbs rifle) is for sale. I saw it at the ACGG show and it is one of only 150 guns there that I would have liked to have taken home. ;-)

Red

.

Alf,

This is what I said:

"What conditions you can think of where the 500 Jeffery would have more horsepower than the the 505 Gibbs with handloads......I just can't see where it is a case of....You may be right....To me, the 505 will win easily..not even a fucking contest"

Mike

first and foremost, evaulate a 460 weatherby based round.

secondly, the gibbs has ~16 gr more capacity.. and, if loaded to the SAME pressure, will leave the 500 jeffe in the DUST... much like a 458 win compared to a 458 lott... if you MAX load the win, and then DOWN load the Lott, they are close.. but that's not the reason.

if you are serious about a 50, for nostalgia, then it simply must be the jeffe, for practicality.

oh, and "weighs a ton"... if it's under 10# it's GOING to beat you...

if you choose say, a 500 AHR (NOT nostalgia) then you should choose a 500 a2 or 510 wells... which is more or less a rebarrel

jeffe

Dago Red,

The vast majority of 505 Gibbs cases will have internal volumes of between 173 and 181 grains of water. The ones I have personally used ran right around 174 to 178.


The vast majority of 500 Jeffery cases will have internal volumes of between 148 and 159 grains of water. The ones I have personally used ran right around 148 to 153.

ASS_CLOWN

Mike and Alf,

Quote:

---

What conditions you can think of where the 500 Jeffery would have more horsepower than the the 505 Gibbs with handloads......

---

I attempted to answer this in a previous post.

The 505 Gibbs has a slightly weaker web than the 500 Jeffrey. This fact will reduce the maximum pressure of the cartridge by about 1000 psi. In a Mauser actioned rifle this SHOULD not be an issue, unless the brass is practically dead soft.

More importantly is the rifle / barrel that the cartridge is being placed into. The Gibbs is the larger diameter of the two. To equalize the strain (stress) of the system the Gibbs must be loaded to ~ 7% lower pressures than the 500 Jeffrey, which results in a velocity reduction of ~ 2% for the Gibbs compared to the Jeffrey.

Since STRAIN dictates the beginnings of such things as STICKY bolt lift, BLOWN barrels, SHEARED BOLT lugs, this is IMPORTANT. In a MAUSER action, the RIFLE, NOT THE CASE, is the weakest link for both the 505 Gibbs and the 500 Jeffrey cartridges. Therefore, since the 505 Gibbs generates more strain (stress) for ANY given pressure than the 500 Jeffrey, the 505 Gibbs MUST be loaded to ~ 7% lower pressures as I stated previously, to insure the rifle is NOT damaged.

Therefore, one can get the MORE out of a 500 Jeffrey than they can from a 505 Gibbs in a MAUSER ACTIONED RIFLE!! < !--color-->

Having said all that. If one were to use a larger action, say a McMillan 50 BMG, then the old 505 Gibbs would whip up on the 500 Jeffrey!!

That's the "Facts Jack", gentlemen!

Final statement on the subject. As Ray so accurately stated, both cartridges (505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffrey) provide PLENTY of horsepower for the job at hand. You simply do not NEED more than 2300 fps (and I prefer ~ 2200 fps) with a 600 grain, 0.510" bullet, for ANY animal that walks this earth!!

ASS_CLOWN

.

Alf
If your women are 1/2 as fine looking as your rifles you are indeed a vey luck man. Those are a pair of outstanding rifles! Thanks for posting the pictures.
Dean

Admitting some ignorance, mathematically speaking, can someone figure the foot pounds of recoil in a 12.5 lt rifle with a 535 grain bullet @ 2400 and a 570 at 2250? Obviously I do not have the formula to calculate this, I'm sure I have it in a book but not aware of it right now.

Also, thanks for ALL of the discussion on both cartridges. I have to admit I don't believe in hooking a plow to a race horse but like Ray, I like to enjoy my shooting as much as possible and if the animal isn't going to be able to tell the difference between 2200 and 2400, I sure will. Thanks for the pics also!!!


Good Shooting,

Zedman

Recoil calculator here:

http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

The original ballistics for the Jeffery was 95 grains of cordite and a 535 grain bullet, for 2,300fps. Even with today's components, 2,350 fps with the 570 bullet is near max. The Gibbs was loaded to 2,300 with a 525 grain bullet @ lower operating pressures. To my mind, .50 calibers need at least a 570 bullet, to foster penetration.
It is almost universally overlooked that the employment of 570 and 600 grain bullets actually increases the disparity in powder capacity between these two cases, due to the comparative shortness of the Jeffery neck. Even with the 600 grain monolithics, the bullets only marginally protrude into the Gibbs casing. Not so with the Jeffrey. Don't get me wrong, I like ALL the .50's, especially so the AHR design (which I do not own) but when we speak of tailored handloads with todays's components, the Gibbs drives the bullets substantially faster. My .505 hunting loads are the 570X & 600 Super Solids and Horneber brass at 2,325fps and they are very comfortably under max.

Nick,

I would argue that either case has sufficient case capacity for the 570 and 600 gr bullets. The Jeffrey can easily hold 110 gr of RL 15 and push a 570-600 2350-2400 fps. No, I wouldn't think going for 2500 fps would be a good thing, nor would I argue that the 505 Gibbs would be incapable of such loads.

Somehow if a 600 gr 50 cal @ 2200 fps isn't enough Then me thinks a larger dia and heavier bullet are the answer, not 2500 fps.

I'd honestly rather have the smaller 500 J or even 500 A2 case, as there won't be much if any air space in the case when loaded to reasonable pressure levels.

Ryan Breeding built a 505 I believe on a 602? It was featured in Guns & Ammo aritcal Feb. 1989 by Jack Lott "The smashing 505" I believe it was. Lott had some SERIOUS handloads in that artical and I want to say he had 600 grainers going 2500+fps. Get Nickudu on that one... he probably has the artical. I still have the artical at dads. Ryan Breeding makes some TRULY awsome big bores. Fantastic looking.

No argument at all, Paul. Never meant to imply the Jeffery was not suitable for the 570's & 600's but rather to emphasize how much bigger the Gibbs was. To that same end, I forgot to mention I was using 3 or 4 grains of dacron filler in my loads!

Smallfry - That's the origin of the 2,587fps loading mentioned earlier by Ass Clown, I believe. I'll check on it.

Gentlemen

If 535 of solid at 2300 fps is not enough then you are doing something wrong. And adding more volocity to that equation will not solve the problem.
Who needs a soft when hunting DG with a 500 cal. The wound channel is big enough and the use of solids will proberly result in a exit wound and make two holes and give you more blood if you need to track the game. JMO

Cheers,

Andr�

Smallfry - Guns & Ammo / February 1989 - Jack Lott -

The .505 ... When Is �Enough Gun� Too Much?

From Ryan Breeding:

152 Gr. IMR 4831 with 600 grain Barnes soft for 2,578 fps.

132 Gr. IMR 4831 with 700 grain Barnes soft for 2,260 fps.



Andre - Look at the SD numbers for those 535 grain bullets. Not impressive, especially when one is vying for adequate penetration with a .50 caliber. In my view, at least for game such as elephant and buffalo, the use of 535's is counter productive. The effect of .50 caliber softs on cape buffalo is something to see.

Nick

I have never heard about penetration problems with the 500 Jeffery or Gibbs for that matter with standard loads 535 or 525 in solids.
If you have please tell !

Quote:

---

The effect of .50 caliber softs on cape buffalo is something to see.

---

Please elaborate.

Cheers,

Andr�

Nick

I like the look of those 570 grn Branes XLC bullets.
How deep did they penetrate ?
I do not know what to use when you start showing those barnes
I was planing to use only solids

Cheers,

Andr�

I have been trying to screw a 500a-2 together but its slow going. My new job is costing me a fortune , hunts, and other rifle projects/commitments. funny how that works. The plan is 2150-2200 600 grains.

Andre, Those fat slugs need all the SD they can get. The 570 "X" bullets were cut out from under the offside skins. Too big to punch through but ideal for herd hunting, I'd say.

Smallfry - The A2 is perhaps the best choice in a .50, all things considered. Get it done, man!

Nick should I go with the 600 grn solids at 2300 fps ? Sounds wild
I would like the bullets to penetrate is that the wrong way to go about it ?

Cheers,

Andr�